Lucky dog, and cars multiple laps down thoughts....

Greg

Greg

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I wish that cars more than a lap down could race for the lucky dog.
I know getting back on the lead lap applies more for a car only one lap down . But I think a provision is justified due to some pit road conditions. A green flag stop at Martinsville and Dover will probably cost you two laps. I think a car that can demonstrate the speed should not be destroyed by an untimely tire change

Proposal:
The first car one lap down would always get a lucky dog.
But there should be a provision imo that a car running more than a lap down can still race for a second lucky dog if it has track position (relative to the leader) that is better than the first car one lap down at the time of the caution.
Only one car running multiple laps down regardless of laps down would be eligible.

Example:
The first car one lap down is running p15 at the time of the caution, would always get a lucky dog.
Another car running multiple laps down would be be eligible for a lucky dog, if his track position (relative to the leader) is better than the position of the highest running car lapped car. In other words no other lapped cars could be positioned between him and the leader.

What say ye? Your thoughts to discuss or disqust amongst ourselves.
 
Then couldn't the driver that is more than one lap down, purposely drop back behind the leader, then maintain his position ahead of the first car a lap down? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but I gave it a shot.
 
Yogisd1 said:
Then couldn't the driver that is more than one lap down, purposely drop back behind the leader, then maintain his position ahead of the first car a lap down? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but I gave it a shot.
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Not sure why it would create the need. Intentionally giving up a lap defeats earning a lucky dog.
 
The problem with that logic is the cars like the 00 or the 32 or the 51, etc. They get lapped so often, if the caution falls when they just got lapped for the 13th time do they really deserve a lap back?

Why not simplify the idea? 1st person one lap down gets their lap back. 1st person two laps down gets back to one lap down.
 
How about the fastest person 1 lap down or more, can get 1 lap back by running the fastest lap time of all cars 1 lap or more down. That way anyone 1 lap or more down can be rewarded for on track performance, and would logically, based on lap time be the most deserving. This would create a race inside a race, in my opinion.
 
How about ALL cars more than one lap down with 25 laps left in the race be black flagged and scored in that position. That way we would have a lot less people having a brain fart when they don't have a chance in hell of doing any better.
 
Team Penske said:
How about ALL cars more than one lap down with 25 laps left in the race be black flagged and scored in that position. That way we would have a lot less people having a brain fart when they don't have a chance in hell of doing any better.
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I'd be a fan of this...maybe make it five laps though.
 
Team Penske said:
How about ALL cars more than one lap down with 25 laps left in the race be black flagged and scored in that position. That way we would have a lot less people having a brain fart when they don't have a chance in hell of doing any better.
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oh no, no, no, Patricia Driscoll and I are starting a Stragglers Untied Racers in conjunction with Last Car, contributions welcome. :rolleyes::p
 
No more wavearounds.

Lead lap cars only in the final 10 laps.

During prior cautions, cars between first and second get laps back.

For debris or solo spins, a green/yellow flag comes out allowing the field to race to the line. Under this scenario, no lucky dogs, laps given back, etc.
 
With 20 or less laps to go, if there is a yellow, everybody gets all their laps back. No, that probably wouldn't work either. I like the idea of no lucky dog. If you want your lap back, pass the leader. If they didn't give points for 21st through 40th, there would be no need for the rolling accidents to be on track.
 
Greg said:
I wish that cars more than a lap down could race for the lucky dog.
I know getting back on the lead lap applies more for a car only one lap down . But I think a provision is justified due to some pit road conditions. A green flag stop at Martinsville and Dover will probably cost you two laps. I think a car that can demonstrate the speed should not be destroyed by an untimely tire change

Proposal:
The first car one lap down would always get a lucky dog.
But there should be a provision imo that a car running more than a lap down can still race for a second lucky dog if it has track position (relative to the leader) that is better than the first car one lap down at the time of the caution.
Only one car running multiple laps down regardless of laps down would be eligible.

Example:
The first car one lap down is running p15 at the time of the caution, would always get a lucky dog.
Another car running multiple laps down would be be eligible for a lucky dog, if his track position (relative to the leader) is better than the position of the highest running car lapped car. In other words no other lapped cars could be positioned between him and the leader.

What say ye? Your thoughts to discuss or disqust amongst ourselves.
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I'll bet you're sorry you brought this up. Ive read through the responses and no one really even addresses your proposal. I like it, sometimes things happen like the 48 and bascially puts them out of the race before it gets started. I know Jimmie went down 10 but if he could use the scenario you suggested he possibly could get back to a position where he could try to climb back in to the top 20.
 
I don't like the free pass in any iteration. If it has to be a rule give each team a half dozen a year to use and only allow usage once per race. JMO
 
It is racing luck when you get caught on pit road when a caution comes out or loose a lap for any reason.

I don't think the stages should have cautions, it puts everyone on the same race strategy.
 
Zerkfitting said:
It is racing luck when you get caught on pit road when a caution comes out or loose a lap for any reason.

I don't think the stages should have cautions, it puts everyone on the same race strategy.
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Eh I think some times stage racing cautions do create different strategy's, but so do regular cautions.

Almirola pitted for tires with six laps remaining and restarted sixth, behind three drivers (eventual race-winner Chase Elliott, Brad Keselowski and Martin Truex Jr.) who didn't pit and two drivers (Denny Hamlin and Alex Bowman) who took two tires. In less than a lap, Almirola was bouncing off the wall and clipping Keselowski to trigger a five-car wreck.
 
I thought the rule was
first car a lap down got free pass
first car 2 laps down got free pass to one lap down
and so... the rest the way down

is this not the case?
 
Mopardh9 said:
You don't have a fast car oh well, sick of the free stuff, earn it.
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Thats crap, you can be leading and get a flat, going a lap down doesnt always mean you are slow. But if they used your rule, if 35 cars were still on the lead lap you virtually have zero chance to make it up.
 
Spotter22 said:
Thats crap, you can be leading and get a flat, going a lap down doesnt always mean you are slow. But if they used your rule, if 35 cars were still on the lead lap you virtually have zero chance to make it up.
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So? It would be fair for everyone. Race your way back on the lead lap. So sick of all the gimmicks.
 
Racing your way back on the lead lap made sense when they raced back to the line because the leaders were OK with letting off before the start/finish line and giving a guy a break.
 
In my heart of hearts I wish there was not a need for lucky dogs. There was no justification for them back in the day, but things have changed. I also dislike unnecessary debris cautions. I am all for letting the leader enjoy and keeping a well earned hypothetical 8 second lead. A race with no cautions will get a perfect 10 rating from me regardless of the margin of victory, simply because I love the purity.

But Lucky dogs are a compensation for some necessary things that already are irreversibly impure. A rule to satisfy every situation is impossible but they are the best realistic alternative for the following reasons.

1.Racing to the yellow to regain a lap was eliminated righteously for safety. A stalled car near the flag is a sitting duck when racing back to yellow flag.
2.Justified pit road speed limits were instituted years ago due to a pit road fatality.
3. Martinsville and Bristol prior to recongfiguration used to have separate front and back pit roads. They were not as good under cautions, but they required less pit road residence time when pitting. Now If you must pit at the Martinsville carousel under green you will loose two laps probably three. A green flag stop at Dover and Richmond probably will put you two laps down as well.
4. Lead lap cars restarting double file up front followed by lapped cars are a built-in handicap. A situation were if you are absolutely the fastest car but more than one lap down you still probably will not earn a lucky dog in spite of the superior speed. If you are two laps down you will restart behind the lead lap cars and must pass all cars including the leader just to have a chance at racing cars a lap down for the lucky dog.
5. The what if a multiple laps down type like Landon Cassill or a Lajoie gets repeated lucky dogs is not an issue based on my proposal. They still must have the best track position among lapped cars relative to leader to get a lucky dog. The ability to do that in almost all cases requires superior speed in order to out position the first car one lap down. There will be some cases were they just got lapped and a caution occurs giving them the lap back even with inferior speed, but that same condition is already or currently in effect for cars only one lap down.

This is not a perfect alternative it is just the best solution provided courtesy of the Intellects at the CooterJohnsonsJuniorsIIIRacingMotorsportsEnterprisesAssocites and Dingleberries Inc Foundation.
 
First car one lap down lines up with the leader and leader has lane choice. That is the way it should be. Nascar says they can't race during a caution so let them race on the green flag and then get freight trained.

OR just give him his lap back and let him start at the rear. :p
 
People say the main things they don't like about NASCAR are too many rules, and too many situations that appear to manufacture drama and the race outcome. Yet here we are discussing another rule change to manufacture race outcomes...

I have never liked the Lucky Dog rule. To me, if you cannot regain a lost lap by passing the leader then you haven't earned anything. Giving a Lucky Dog to make up for not allowing racing back to the yellow is misguided. Today NASCAR is able to accurately score all car positions throughout the whole race, so they can freeze positions when the yellow comes out and then adjust that due to pit stop results.

If you're going to keep the Lucky Dog rule, at least only allow a car to get it once per race. Any car that keeps getting lapped is not a contender for the win. And one Lucky Dog per yellow is enough. If you want to give many cars laps back, particularly to generate late race excitement, you may as well have a competition yellow with five laps to go and put every car on the lead lap - that would manufacture plenty of drama... if you insist on negating most of what the cars have managed to earn during the race...

It's unfortunate when mishaps or bad timing cause strong cars to lose laps, but it's part of racing. Giving Lucky Dogs to these cars is not fair to cars that don't get their problems solved for them by the rules.

As far as black flagging lapped cars before the end of the race, so they're "out of the way" at the end, that's ridiculous. Those cars are still trying to represent their sponsors and gain any points and positions that they can. If you can justify removing lapped cars at the end of the race, why not just remove them as they fall a certain number of laps down throughout the race, or eliminate lapped cars at the end of each segment? Why allow these cars to "be in the way" until almost the end? Of course, good drivers have to be able deal with lapped cars...
 
gone said:
People say the main things they don't like about NASCAR are too many rules, and too many situations that appear to manufacture drama and the race outcome. Yet here we are discussing another rule change to manufacture race outcomes...

I have never liked the Lucky Dog rule. To me, if you cannot regain a lost lap by passing the leader then you haven't earned anything. Giving a Lucky Dog to make up for not allowing racing back to the yellow is misguided. Today NASCAR is able to accurately score all car positions throughout the whole race, so they can freeze positions when the yellow comes out and then adjust that due to pit stop results.

If you're going to keep the Lucky Dog rule, at least only allow a car to get it once per race. Any car that keeps getting lapped is not a contender for the win. And one Lucky Dog per yellow is enough. If you want to give many cars laps back, particularly to generate late race excitement, you may as well have a competition yellow with five laps to go and put every car on the lead lap - that would manufacture plenty of drama... if you insist on negating most of what the cars have managed to earn during the race...

It's unfortunate when mishaps or bad timing cause strong cars to lose laps, but it's part of racing. Giving Lucky Dogs to these cars is not fair to cars that don't get their problems solved for them by the rules.

As far as black flagging lapped cars before the end of the race, so they're "out of the way" at the end, that's ridiculous. Those cars are still trying to represent their sponsors and gain any points and positions that they can. If you can justify removing lapped cars at the end of the race, why not just remove them as they fall a certain number of laps down throughout the race, or eliminate lapped cars at the end of each segment? Why allow these cars to "be in the way" until almost the end? Of course, good drivers have to be able deal with lapped cars...
Click to expand...

I agree with your sentiments, but they will never give up the all of the lead cars starting double file up front.
Which means a caution could happen with the first car one lap down running directly behind the leader. The lead lap cars pit first, then that lapped car pits with the other lapped cars on the next lap. That lapped car could have the fastest pit stop of the race, but it will be lining up about 20th in track position or something close.
Aside from the RP tracks a car with superior speed or performance still has little or no chance under that scenario to race his way back on to the lead lap. He could drive the best race of the day but it will not happen.

This isn't an argument to give away a mulligan or gimmick. The natural order gets screwed up during all cautions to facilitate the lead lap double file crap.
I wish they lined up restarts by track position only regardless of laps down, the double file lead lap cars up by front is the skew, or distortion. < The real gimmick that makes a lucky dog conversation even worthy of a debate.
It is the catalyst, the intial improvisation and heavy handed stunt that alters and skews the actual racing results. (The following is a general statement, not aimed at you or any particular person).I think folks in favor of the current double file lead lap cars first by default restarts, while also complaining about lucky dogs as gimmick are making a shallow argument.

Lapped cars: They don't bother me as long as they can maintain minimum speed. They have a right to race like all others. I also like watching lead lap cars work traffic, there is a real skill involved. It is also can naturally upsets some of the leaders monopoly on clean air, a good thing in my opinion.
 
Greg said:
I agree with your sentiments, but they will never give up the all of the lead cars starting double file up front.
Which means a caution could happen with the first car one lap down running directly behind the leader. The lead lap cars pit first, then that lapped car pits with the other lapped cars on the next lap. That lapped car could have the fastest pit stop of the race, but it will be lining up about 20th in track position or something close.
Aside from the RP tracks a car with superior speed or performance still has little or no chance under that scenario to race his way back on to the lead lap. He could drive the best race of the day but it will not happen.

This isn't an argument to give away a mulligan or gimmick. The natural order gets screwed up during all cautions to facilitate the lead lap double file crap.
I wish they lined up restarts by track position only regardless of laps down, the double file lead lap cars up by front is the skew, or distortion. < The real gimmick that makes a lucky dog conversation even worthy of a debate.
It is the catalyst, the intial improvisation and heavy handed stunt that alters and skews the actual racing results. (The following is a general statement, not aimed at you or any particular person).I think folks in favor of the current double file lead lap cars first by default restarts, while also complaining about lucky dogs as gimmick are making a shallow argument.

Lapped cars: They don't bother me as long as they can maintain minimum speed. They have a right to race like all others. I also like watching lead lap cars work traffic, there is a real skill involved. It is also can naturally upsets some of the leaders monopoly on clean air, a good thing in my opinion.
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Teh Hell with man made synthetic racing. Give me that ole time organic racing, it was good enough for mom and poppa and it is good enough for me....
 
Before the Lucky dog and double file restarts, the lap down cars lined up on the inside lane and given the opportunity to drive past the leader and win a lap back. But most of the time they just got in the way of the leaders and were in the way of those on the lead lap. The lucky dog is just a salute to the past and generally doesn't affect the race (unless you were Jeff Gordon and made up many laps with the lucky dog and I think he won the race).
 
gone said:
People say the main things they don't like about NASCAR are too many rules, and too many situations that appear to manufacture drama and the race outcome. Yet here we are discussing another rule change to manufacture race outcomes...

I have never liked the Lucky Dog rule. To me, if you cannot regain a lost lap by passing the leader then you haven't earned anything. Giving a Lucky Dog to make up for not allowing racing back to the yellow is misguided. Today NASCAR is able to accurately score all car positions throughout the whole race, so they can freeze positions when the yellow comes out and then adjust that due to pit stop results.

If you're going to keep the Lucky Dog rule, at least only allow a car to get it once per race. Any car that keeps getting lapped is not a contender for the win. And one Lucky Dog per yellow is enough. If you want to give many cars laps back, particularly to generate late race excitement, you may as well have a competition yellow with five laps to go and put every car on the lead lap - that would manufacture plenty of drama... if you insist on negating most of what the cars have managed to earn during the race...

It's unfortunate when mishaps or bad timing cause strong cars to lose laps, but it's part of racing. Giving Lucky Dogs to these cars is not fair to cars that don't get their problems solved for them by the rules.

As far as black flagging lapped cars before the end of the race, so they're "out of the way" at the end, that's ridiculous. Those cars are still trying to represent their sponsors and gain any points and positions that they can. If you can justify removing lapped cars at the end of the race, why not just remove them as they fall a certain number of laps down throughout the race, or eliminate lapped cars at the end of each segment? Why allow these cars to "be in the way" until almost the end? Of course, good drivers have to be able deal with lapped cars...
Click to expand...

It seems every race those cars who are not in contention try to hard for that one point or pay back and really throw a wrench into the stratagee of front running cars. How many races have been lost by the leader after so many restarts? The whole team works it's butt off to win and these guys who have no possible way of winning just mess it up.
35 years of Nascar and it just seems to get worse all the time.
 
Team Penske said:
It seems every race those cars who are not in contention try to hard for that one point or pay back and really throw a wrench into the stratagee of front running cars. How many races have been lost by the leader after so many restarts? The whole team works it's butt off to win and these guys who have no possible way of winning just mess it up.
35 years of Nascar and it just seems to get worse all the time.
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some think it is worse..personally I like the randomness of it. Cars are so dependable now, used to be just because a car was winning, the ever present danger of a tire going down, or some other mechanical failure happened frequently, or a wreck in front of the leader added drama.
 
Team Penske said:
It seems every race those cars who are not in contention try to hard for that one point or pay back and really throw a wrench into the stratagee of front running cars. How many races have been lost by the leader after so many restarts? The whole team works it's butt off to win and these guys who have no possible way of winning just mess it up.
35 years of Nascar and it just seems to get worse all the time.
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Sorry, but the strategies of the front running cars is no real concern for the struggling cars. If those front runners really belong up front then they can handle the struggling cars. The struggling cars paid their entry fees and unless they get a black flag they have every right to be out there. If they cause cautions that's part of racing. It's tough if a struggling car causes problems for another car, but that's part of racing too.

Some front runners forget what it was like when they were struggling, and what it took to get over it. It really irritates me when some hotshot driver in a well financed car whines about his misfortunes and blames it on a struggling team. If that hotshot was smart, he'd be helping that struggling team get good enough to stop bringing out cautions. Not good enough to beat him, but good enough to stop causing problems.
 
20 to go give all cars laps back...back on the lead lap and then inverse the field...only the cars originally on lead lap can pit and have to get a running start from the backstretch...left handed drivers get to start in the outside lane and right handed drivers have to hold ice cream in their right hand for the duration of the race at 10 to go. All multiple car teams lose 2 points per position because they're bullies....all retired drivers must do a driver swap during the race at one point or another otherwise you lose 10 points....if you wore shoes the previous Tuesday prior to the race...you must eat indian food the morning of the race and have to have your driver suit spotless by the end of the race and if so you get 3 extra playoff points but they are not eligible for the playoffs for the 32 seed playoff field....If you're a married driver you automatically earn 7.5 points on you're birthday every 3 years only if you've been with the same car chief for more than 17 months but only if you've been with your same crew chief for 300 races not counting night races or races where you lead a lap under yellow......this is how ridiculous I feel all the rules nascar has implemented in the sport. Lol what a waste of time...lol
 
gone said:
Sorry, but the strategies of the front running cars is no real concern for the struggling cars. If those front runners really belong up front then they can handle the struggling cars. The struggling cars paid their entry fees and unless they get a black flag they have every right to be out there. If they cause cautions that's part of racing. It's tough if a struggling car causes problems for another car, but that's part of racing too.

Some front runners forget what it was like when they were struggling, and what it took to get over it. It really irritates me when some hotshot driver in a well financed car whines about his misfortunes and blames it on a struggling team. If that hotshot was smart, he'd be helping that struggling team get good enough to stop bringing out cautions. Not good enough to beat him, but good enough to stop causing problems.
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In most cases the back markers that cause the cautions in those last laps or GWC do-overs,
do not benefit in any way and most times their desperate attempts to pass one car results
in their car needing much more body work. The restarts only affect the top 3 or 4 cars
and the leader seldom wins after 3 restarts. That is the part that pisses me off.
Paying your entree fee does not give you the right to screw up the race finish.
 
Backmarkers have never bothered me. At the dirt track I used to go to, there was this one always last backmarker that when the leader would get to him to put him a lap down, the guy would fishtail all over the track and the leader would have to time his pass just right. You could set your clock with this driver, he never failed. Newman had nothing on this guy
 
I'm not suggesting any changes, but it NEVER ceases to amaze me how backmarker cars that have driven perfectly clean races for 490 miles suddenly spin out or bounce off the wall with less than ten miles to go. Many of them are not even on a lap with another car, so it's not like they are racing hard to pick up another spot before the finish. One of the mysteries of life....
 
they race hard back there in the LeMans series as they call it. They are doing the same thing they are doing in the front for the most part trying one last time to get another position. Nascar's pay system is tiered as I understand it. The last five I think get the same money, so advancing beyond that gives the team more money.
 
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