Multi-use Engines Have Arrived in Cup (Just Baby Steps)

LewTheShoe

LewTheShoe

Seeking Skill-based Meritocracy... More HP Less DF
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Bob Pockrass at ESPN.com...

"Starting next season, NASCAR Cup teams will have to use 13 engines during the year for two full race weekends -- the engines will be sealed so between races they can't tamper with the engine block, crankshaft, camshaft, connecting rods and pistons. Also, engines used at Talladega in October will be sealed and must be used again in the preseason race at Daytona next February."

 
Man... that is aggressive. That will change the game for some teams.

EDIT

Wow. I needed to come back to this reply... my gears are rolling now on this idea... immediately I ask, so if a team "unfortunately" kills a sealed motor at a practice session before its next race... what happens? Just put a new one in right?

That has to be the first idea crew chiefs thought about. Intentionally kill the motor so it doesn't have to race twice. Even if you start tail end of the field it might be worth it at some tracks.
 
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JohnHill said:
Man... that is aggressive. That will change the game for some teams.
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I am guessing it is supposed to be a cost saving measure that will end up costing teams more and widen the gap between the haves and have nots. Many of Nascar's initiatives are pregnant with the law of unintended consequences and this seems like it could be one of them.
 
The block and all the rotating parts can easily do 2 races without breaking anything or losing any cylinder pressure through the rings. Valve springs look like they're "free" and they need to be.

And 26 races are covered ... presumably you get a new lump every weekend for the Chase ... sorry ... Playoffs.
 
StandOnIt said:
They have been doing something remotely similar for quite a while in the lower series without the drama though. hell of a nice compromise to spec motors IMO
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I wasn't really aware these motors had a real chance at completing two full races without being tore down after the first of the two... Not at this level of racing anyway. Really interesting though.
 
aunty dive said:
The block and all the rotating parts can easily do 2 races without breaking anything or losing any cylinder pressure through the rings. Valve springs look like they're "free" and they need to be.

And 26 races are covered ... presumably you get a new lump every weekend for the Chase ... sorry ... Playoffs.
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Rev will finally get his "chase spec" motor..all is well
 
Also it appears that you now only get one motor for the entire Daytona 500 week. Oh, and also this:

"Starting in 2018, a driver who goes to a backup car will have to start at the rear of the field. Current rules allow a driver to retain starting position if the driver starts the race in the car used in qualifying -- meaning that a crash in practice prior to qualifying has not resulted in having to start at the rear of the field."
 
JohnHill said:
I wasn't really aware these motors could go two full races without being tore down. Not at this level of racing anyway. Really interesting though.
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They can't. They use very exotic rings, bearings, pistons and heads that are replaced for every race as it stands now..the mega teams do. This will help the smaller teams a bit, but the mega's are going to figure just how hard they can go with it for two races.
 
StandOnIt said:
they can go 15 races I believe without a rebuild. It's in ARCA I think. Big difference is it's one manufacturer in that series and almost everybody switched because it is cheaper and better in the long run. They can still run their own stuff, but it is smaller, and less HP than the spec.
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Wow. I was always under the impression these things were basically built and pushed to their edge at roughly 600 to 700 miles... basically getting the team through a whole weekend and then the engine would be rebuilt. I mean I have no way to directly know, has that atleast been what teams have done up to this point though?

With the money and sponsor demand I would have bet my life that their was a fresh basically new motor for each race.
 
The gear rule is one of the things that make this possible. Notice how rare blown engines have become. I was on an ARCA team that ran the whole season with one engine, it just ate valve springs. Of course we were turning 82-8300 RPM when the front runners were was pushing 9000.
 
JohnHill said:
Wow. I was always under the impression these things were basically built and pushed to their edge at roughly 600 to 700 miles... basically getting the team through a whole weekend and then the engine would be rebuilt. I mean I have no way to directly know, has that atleast been what teams have done up to this point though?

With the money and sponsor demand I would have bet my life that their was a fresh basically new motor for each race.
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oh yeah for sure in cup but some of the backmarkers can't do that. as it is now, they might be able to build up a stock of at least decent motors for a season.
 
JohnHill said:
I wasn't really aware these motors had a real chance at completing two full races without being tore down after the first of the two... Not at this level of racing anyway. Really interesting though.
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I still think we'll see more blown motors than usual.. It's hard to predict wear and tear on parts. It'll be really interesting to see at the Coke 600 and some of the 500 mile races.
 
Wonder how often NASCAR will check these engines? Sealed engines have been used on the short tracks for a number of years and people found a way around it mainly because they weren't being checked. I suspect NASCAR will check these regularly. I'm sure some teams will find ways to get around this.
 
lolla79 said:
I still think we'll see more blown motors than usual.. It's hard to predict wear and tear on parts. It'll be really interesting to see at the Coke 600 and some of the 500 mile races.
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I think you will be surprised, at least with the top teams how few failures they will have. Backmarkers? yeah probably unless they err on the side of caution, they don't have the testing facilities that the larger teams have. Guys that can lease motors shouldn't have a problem I wouldn't think.
 
lolla79 said:
I still think we'll see more blown motors than usual.. It's hard to predict wear and tear on parts. It'll be really interesting to see at the Coke 600 and some of the 500 mile races.
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The rules will change several times during the season as Nascar will have opened Pandora's Box and that will necessitate all sorts of convolution and gimmicks for all the contingencies they have not thought of.
 
MRM said:
Wonder how often NASCAR will check these engines? Sealed engines have been used on the short tracks for a number of years and people found a way around it mainly because they weren't being checked. I suspect NASCAR will check these regularly. I'm sure some teams will find ways to get around this.
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That's a good point..headlines..so in so team having an exact original clone gets caught installing it..Nascar encumbers after the win, takes away a whole 25 points. you called it.:p
 
Bring on the super exotic, high priced, un-obtainium bearings, rings, seals...you name it
 
Hawaii808 said:
Bring on the super exotic, high priced, un-obtainium bearings, rings, seals...you name it
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they already have that in one race only forms. Back to the drawing board for two race stuff. I haven't figured out what happens when they blow up in the first practice with a new motor. does that mean that they have to stretch out their allotment and run three races with the next one? And going farther could they run out of motors if they blow too many up..another mess that they have created with no idea of the consequences in a real world situation.
 
As Aunty pointed out, valve springs are the weakest link in the engine service life equation, and I've seen nothing that says valve springs can't be changed before the second usage of an engine. Still, there are occasional failures of other parts besides valve springs. So there is risk.

Last May at the World 600, Fox reported that mileage limits recommended for practice and qualifying were:
- 100 laps Ford
- 115 laps Toyota
- 125 laps Chevy
- Therefore, total mileage for the weekend = 750 to 788 miles.
 
LewTheShoe said:
As Aunty pointed out, valve springs are the weakest link in the engine service life equation, and I've seen nothing that says valve springs can't be changed before the second usage of an engine. Still, there are occasional failures of other parts besides valve springs. So there is risk.

Last May at the World 600, Fox reported that mileage limits recommended for practice and qualifying were:
- 100 laps Ford
- 115 laps Toyota
- 125 laps Chevy
- Therefore, total mileage for the weekend = 750 to 788 miles.
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yeah that isn't enough for two races. The trucks have been doing sealed motors for awhile, Xfinity has a bendable sealed motor program, as usual theirs is complicated, sometimes (with nascar approval) they get a replacement.. here we go again.
 
Gene Haas speed dialing his pals at Ferrari for trick materials...again.
 
F1 does this and now they have a super-convoluted token system. Too many tokens used results in all sorts of stupid penalties.


This could be good but it could go very bad too.
 
DUN24 said:
F1 does this and now they have a super-convoluted token system. Too many tokens used results in all sorts of stupid penalties.


This could be good but it could go very bad too.
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IDK if this is right or not or going to be used. But yeah as they say, Nascar could F up a wet dream

 
This is going to end up like Formula 1, the gap between the haves and have nots will widen. Hendrick and JGR are going to be like Ferrari and Mercedes. More gimmicks.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I am guessing it is supposed to be a cost saving measure that will end up costing teams more and widen the gap between the haves and have nots. Many of Nascar's initiatives are pregnant with the law of unintended consequences and this seems like it could be one of them.
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Once again, another idea that should have been tested at the Truck / X levels.

Hey, here's an idea. After the first race, turn the engines back into NASCAR. Engines for the next race will be handed out randomly.
 
IMO, Cost containment is not a choice, it must happen if we want to maintain full starting fields
 
Snappy D said:
This is going to end up like Formula 1, the gap between the haves and have nots will widen. Hendrick and JGR are going to be like Ferrari and Mercedes. More gimmicks.
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How many of the have-nots don't get their engines from HMS, ECR, TRD or Roush Yates? I'm not saying I LIKE this rule, but not for this reason. If it actually helped lower the cost of an engine lease, it would be a good thing for these teams. As I said before, these engines can last as long as you want them to. You just have to be willing to sacrifice a few RPM and not lean the motor out too far. The engine builders could do this deal today. They would just have to avoid the urge to put the motor on full kill.
 
Greg said:
IMO, Cost containment is not a choice, it must happen if we want to maintain full starting fields
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I am not sure what a full field is anymore but I think we will start getting some races with between 30-35 in the next 24 months. According to some racing mavens there is no such thing as cost containment in Nascar as any savings realized in one area are used in another.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Trucks and Xfinity have been doing this for a while.
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There has to be a good reason for the change? Doesn't seem to be working in the trucks that well. The idea of a one manufacturer spec engine like some of the lower series are doing keeps popping up.
 
Formerjackman said:
How many of the have-nots don't get their engines from HMS, ECR, TRD or Roush Yates? I'm not saying I LIKE this rule, but not for this reason. If it actually helped lower the cost of an engine lease, it would be a good thing for these teams. As I said before, these engines can last as long as you want them to. You just have to be willing to sacrifice a few RPM and not lean the motor out too far. The engine builders could do this deal today. They would just have to avoid the urge to put the motor on full kill.
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Tri-Star Motorsports #72, Rick Ware Racing #51 use PME for their engines, so out of all the full time teams, two teams do not get their engines from HMS/ECR/TRD/RYE.
 
Now can someone explain what or how a engine is sealed , I am pretty sure I can Google it, but I got some other things to do right this moment and I will forget later :laugh:
 
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