Multi-use Engines Have Arrived in Cup (Just Baby Steps)

I'm not seeing how this cost reduction measure widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots. I mean, maybe I'm not enough of a glass-half-empty guy, but I don't see that. To those making that prediction, could you explain the scenario you expect? How are lower engine costs bad for the under-funded teams?
 
jws926 said:
Now can someone explain what or how a engine is sealed , I am pretty sure I can Google it, but I got some other things to do right this moment and I will forget later :laugh:
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F141432716.jpg


^ Bolt seal ...

004.jpg


^ Camshaft seal ...

Cable_Lock4_Red.jpg




^ Tamper-evident seal ...
 
jws926 said:
Now can someone explain what or how a engine is sealed , I am pretty sure I can Google it, but I got some other things to do right this moment and I will forget later :laugh:
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a lot of ways. There is usually a number on the seal, paint or a marker can be used, special fasteners etc.They can be taken to a Nascar facility and brought out for races
LewTheShoe said:
I'm not seeing how this cost reduction measure widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots. I mean, maybe I'm not enough of a glass-half-empty guy, but I don't see that. To those making that prediction, could you explain the scenario you expect? How are lower engine costs bad for the under-funded teams?
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half of the engines are being used. I would think the engine builders can\t charge twice as much?
 
Seals aren't keeping the crate engines at the local tracks honest, so how does NASCAR expect them to work at the much highly funded and resourceful Cup level teams?

Counterfeit replacement seals will be available quickly, or maybe teams will make their own. Whatever you make it can be duplicated, and/or sources can be tapped.

Too much money on the line in Cup to allow any rule to save teams money...
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I am not sure what a full field is anymore but I think we will start getting some races with between 30-35 in the next 24 months. According to some racing mavens there is no such thing as cost containment in Nascar as any savings realized in one area are used in another.
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First of all, I never have bought into the money is no object racing mindset. Maybe at a small short track team owner can have an infinite level of money compared to others.
But I dont know of anyone that is willing to go that route in cup racing.Everything has a limit, and there only a few capable and willing to go out of pocket like Gene Haas, and I bet there is a threshold for him as well.

Second of all even if there were one or two willing to go that route, there is definitely not enough to sustain the series.

And the Series is already leaning down and top teir rides are already dwindling. I cannot recall anytime were a driver like Kenseth was facing the prospect of having no ride. Age is not on his side, but he still has enough speed to attract a good opportunity at least for 2018.
And it is not just about him, he is just a sign of the times.

I am not as worried about have 32, 36, or 40 cars to line up on Sunday.
But I definitely want over 20 of them to be good enough to win on any Sunday. And I mean good enough to hook up and win on pure speed, without the benefit of rain, or a crazy caution sequence result.

Nascar will survive and thrive with gimmicks, the chase elimination etc, as long as we have lots of competition, an over abundance. And that is paramount imo, they can spend 50k on an engine, or 50 million a race, but they had better be able to have lots of teams capable of winning, regardless of the budget.

And the only way I know to do that is to ensure that at least that many teams can adford the effort.
A mutually beneficial model for the super rich and the ones trying to keep up.
The Super Rich team has to have competition or none of their accomplishments will ever mean anything.
 
kymartin6 said:
The more rules that are made....... the more interest in Nascar wanes...... I think they are legislating themselves into a hole..... Sometimes.... less is better......

As in a skinny rule book.........
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you've been watching the Xfinity races with sealed motors since 2009 Trucks before that. but go ahead on with the deathbed bro.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Hey, here's an idea. After the first race, turn the engines back into NASCAR. Engines for the next race will be handed out randomly.
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:D

Maybe they should go to an IMCA-style claim rule. That would provide some post-race drama.
 
kymartin6 said:
The more rules that are made....... the more interest in Nascar wanes...... I think they are legislating themselves into a hole..... Sometimes.... less is better......

As in a skinny rule book.........
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Its just not just NASCAR, every major race series has ton's of "legislation"
 
kkfan91 said:
I like that in one day here we can have "nascar should take wins for cheating" to "there are too many rules in NASCAR its killing the series" this is why no one should listen to NASCAR fans.
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Was that supposed to make sense? There is nothing inherently contradictory about those two statements. Stripping wins is actually much less complicated than what they currently do and requires fewer rules. And please not again with the false lumping of all fans' statements together as if all fans are a monolithic entity that must speak with one voice.
 
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gone said:
Seals aren't keeping the crate engines at the local tracks honest, so how does NASCAR expect them to work at the much highly funded and resourceful Cup level teams?

Counterfeit replacement seals will be available quickly, or maybe teams will make their own. Whatever you make it can be duplicated, and/or sources can be tapped.

Too much money on the line in Cup to allow any rule to save teams money...
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Formula 1 doesn't have a problem in this area.

I rather doubt there are any sealed short track crate programs that use that technology.
 
Greg said:
First of all, I never have bought into the money is no object racing mindset. Maybe at a small short track team owner can have an infinite level of money compared to others.
But I dont know of anyone that is willing to go that route in cup racing.Everything has a limit, and there only a few capable and willing to go out of pocket like Gene Haas, and I bet there is a threshold for him as well.

Second of all even if there were one or two willing to go that route, there is definitely not enough to sustain the series.

And the Series is already leaning down and top teir rides are already dwindling. I cannot recall anytime were a driver like Kenseth was facing the prospect of having no ride. Age is not on his side, but he still has enough speed to attract a good opportunity at least for 2018.
And it is not just about him, he is just a sign of the times.

I am not as worried about have 32, 36, or 40 cars to line up on Sunday.
But I definitely want over 20 of them to be good enough to win on any Sunday. And I mean good enough to hook up and win on pure speed, without the benefit of rain, or a crazy caution sequence result.

Nascar will survive and thrive with gimmicks, the chase elimination etc, as long as we have lots of competition, an over abundance. And that is paramount imo, they can spend 50k on an engine, or 50 million a race, but they had better be able to have lots of teams capable of winning, regardless of the budget.

And the only way I know to do that is to ensure that at least that many teams can adford the effort.
A mutually beneficial model for the super rich and the ones trying to keep up.
The Super Rich team has to have competition or none of their accomplishments will ever mean anything.
Click to expand...

Racing has always been a rich mans game
Kenseth is 45 years old I believe he has had offers but he hasn't taken any. He has said publicaly he wasn't goint to do the year long retirement tour, just leave so who knows he ain't talking. Typical Kenseth.
40 cars has been a full car field in the 80's in Earnhardt's and Petty days and it is now. F-1 has 20, Indycar has 20
Nascar has 7 more years of contract left before any of this B.S. prediction crap can even be realized. Insane IMO to be influenced by a few who think their fear mongering is something to strive for. Pretty twisted.
 
gnomesayin said:
Was that supposed to make sense? There is nothing inherently contradictory about those two statements. Stripping wins is actually much less complicated than what they currently do and requires fewer rules. And please not again with the false lumping of all fans' statements together as if all fans are a monolithic entity that must speak with one voice.
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Those who offer ideas are a monolithic entity of bad ideas.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I'm not seeing how this cost reduction measure widens the gap between the haves and the have-nots. I mean, maybe I'm not enough of a glass-half-empty guy, but I don't see that. To those making that prediction, could you explain the scenario you expect? How are lower engine costs bad for the under-funded teams?
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I can't really make that connection either, except that similar initiatives in F1 show no evidence of having closed any gaps. Perhaps it has kept one or two of the poorest teams on the grid? I don't know enough about the inner workings there to say. I think the better arguments are that the prospect of legislating this can become cumbersome, potentially problematic, and rife with trickery.
 
kymartin6 said:
I never said it was the deathbed...... I said I think more legislation is one reason interest is waning....... you evidently read more into my post than what I said.
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sorry I didn't know your post was entirely off topic.
 
gnomesayin said:
I can't really make that connection either, except that similar initiatives in F1 show no evidence of having closed any gaps. Perhaps it has kept one or two of the poorest teams on the grid? I don't know enough about the inner workings there to say. I think the better arguments are that the prospect of legislating this could become really cumbersome, potentially problematic, and rife with trickery.
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simple arithmetic. Leasing 13 motors for what, 23 some odd races instead of a motor every race should cost less no?
 
StandOnIt said:
simple arithmetic. Leasing 13 motors for what, 23 some odd races instead of a motor every race should cost less no?
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Leasing a top tier race motor is not cheap, this will save those backmarker teams a decent chunk of change, at least on paper. I am seeing from 2014 that it was around 100k to lease a top tier motor for one race. I was unable to find out what the current going rate for a lease in 2017 is.
 
StandOnIt said:
simple arithmetic. Leasing 13 motors for what, 23 some odd races instead of a motor every race should cost less no?
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One would think. There are two slightly different but related issues being debated:

1. Engine costs over the season

2. The competitive gap between have / have not teams

I fail to see how this could make engine costs go up for the lesser teams, and they almost certainly would go down. You're right to point out that those teams are leasing or buying motors, not building them. On the second point, the only way I could see it actually widening the already existing gap would be if the engineering these motors to perform at the highest level over the course of two full races is exorbitant and rewards only those at the top. I doubt that too.
 
gone said:
Seals aren't keeping the crate engines at the local tracks honest, so how does NASCAR expect them to work at the much highly funded and resourceful Cup level teams?

Counterfeit replacement seals will be available quickly, or maybe teams will make their own. Whatever you make it can be duplicated, and/or sources can be tapped.

Too much money on the line in Cup to allow any rule to save teams money...
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Any body messing with engines will get hit hard by Nascar .... too hard to risk it IMO
 
gnomesayin said:
One would think. There are two slightly different but related issues being debated:

1. Engine costs over the season

2. The competitive gap between have / have not teams

I fail to see how this could make engine costs go up for the lesser teams, and they almost certainly would go down. You're right to point out that those teams are leasing or buying motors, not building them. On the second point, the only way I could see it actually widening the already existing gap would be if the engineering these motors to perform at the highest level over the course of two full races is exorbitant and rewards only those at the top. I doubt that too.
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could be different grades of parts used for different levels of cost. Hell if I know.
 
Keep in mind it says new motors after two races. I have not seen anything that says two races in a row. You could use the motor in a demanding race then run it the second time at a track that is kinder to engines
 
Greg said:
First of all, I never have bought into the money is no object racing mindset. Maybe at a small short track team owner can have an infinite level of money compared to others.
But I dont know of anyone that is willing to go that route in cup racing.Everything has a limit, and there only a few capable and willing to go out of pocket like Gene Haas, and I bet there is a threshold for him as well.

Second of all even if there were one or two willing to go that route, there is definitely not enough to sustain the series.

And the Series is already leaning down and top teir rides are already dwindling. I cannot recall anytime were a driver like Kenseth was facing the prospect of having no ride. Age is not on his side, but he still has enough speed to attract a good opportunity at least for 2018.
And it is not just about him, he is just a sign of the times.

I am not as worried about have 32, 36, or 40 cars to line up on Sunday.
But I definitely want over 20 of them to be good enough to win on any Sunday. And I mean good enough to hook up and win on pure speed, without the benefit of rain, or a crazy caution sequence result.

Nascar will survive and thrive with gimmicks, the chase elimination etc, as long as we have lots of competition, an over abundance. And that is paramount imo, they can spend 50k on an engine, or 50 million a race, but they had better be able to have lots of teams capable of winning, regardless of the budget.

And the only way I know to do that is to ensure that at least that many teams can adford the effort.
A mutually beneficial model for the super rich and the ones trying to keep up.
The Super Rich team has to have competition or none of their accomplishments will ever mean anything.
Click to expand...

I know that someone has said that on more than one occasion that if race teams figure out how to save a buck they will use that buck to spend in another area so it would be good to get his valuable input on the matter.

There is no question that the race teams are going to have to learn to do more with less but I don't think this latest initiative will do much more than ensure some cannon fodder remains on track. JMO.
 
gnomesayin said:
One would think. There are two slightly different but related issues being debated:

1. Engine costs over the season

2. The competitive gap between have / have not teams

I fail to see how this could make engine costs go up for the lesser teams, and they almost certainly would go down. You're right to point out that those teams are leasing or buying motors, not building them. On the second point, the only way I could see it actually widening the already existing gap would be if the engineering these motors to perform at the highest level over the course of two full races is exorbitant and rewards only those at the top. I doubt that too.
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It will be interesting to see how this plays out but debating it now is just for fun as the announcement is just the opening salvo and there will be all sorts of changed before, during and after implementation.
 
kyle18fan said:
Any body messing with engines will get hit hard by Nascar .... too hard to risk it IMO
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Only Carl Long will ever get penalized for engine infractions because his are so good compared to everyone else!
 
Team Penske said:
Keep in mind it says new motors after two races. I have not seen anything that says two races in a row. You could use the motor in a demanding race then run it the second time at a track that is kinder to engines
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Good point (you think like a crew chief). Teams always look for an advantage, when they look at a rule they start looking at the letter of the law and start looking for the gray areas. The engineers at the big teams will be earning their keep (this rule won't be a cost cutter at the big teams). They've figured out how to make engines run full out for the length of a race, now they'll make them work for some combination of tracks.
 
gone said:
Seals aren't keeping the crate engines at the local tracks honest, so how does NASCAR expect them to work at the much highly funded and resourceful Cup level teams?

Counterfeit replacement seals will be available quickly, or maybe teams will make their own. Whatever you make it can be duplicated, and/or sources can be tapped.

Too much money on the line in Cup to allow any rule to save teams money...
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I'm pretty sure getting caught at that would bring not just cucumbers but the entire salad bar. The penalty would make Carl Long feel sorry for you. If it was me, I'd start by yanking your charter.
 
sloggie said:
This won't reduce costs and will lead to worse racing. See F1 for details.
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I think what could happen is that the teams with the resources will figure out a way to make engines last 2 races to the point we won't see a difference. I believe the lesser funded teams will exercise caution and go with longevity which will make 'em last but will slow 'em down. This is JMO.
 
kymartin6 said:
The more rules that are made....... the more interest in Nascar wanes...... I think they are legislating themselves into a hole..... Sometimes.... less is better......

As in a skinny rule book.........
Click to expand...
They have been doing this the last 10 years and look were that has got them. Lots of empty seats, fewer car counts, and sponsors leaving the sport...keep on doing this and there will be no top tier racing, no one will want to watch.
 
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