NASCAR and RTA are "far apart" on future revenue split

LewTheShoe

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The Race Teams Alliance wants more than 25% of the media rights, and are unhappy with NASCAR's initial response to their offer. This will be a negotiation of paramount importance to the future of the sport, I believe. Basically, they teams are squeezed financially, while the sanctioning body and track owners are fat and want to get fatter. Fireworks are inevitable, but probably behind closed doors.





 
Nothing of this is a shock. Unfortunately I think nascar holds all the power. I mean what are teams going to do start another series? Turns out nascar owns half the tracks. It's not like drivers are going to sit at home in protest.

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Some of this may well be bluster, but creating a more viable economic model is something that many various motorsports should be working on. The way it’s always been done isn’t necessarily the way it always should be done.


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Nothing of this is a shock. Unfortunately I think nascar holds all the power. I mean what are teams going to do start another series? Turns out nascar owns half the tracks. It's not like drivers are going to sit at home in protest.

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Think you're right. I dont see the teams having leverage, unless someone talks to Uncle Tony and SRX becomes a THING, more than it is now. This will all be interesting to see itself play out. I pray a split like CART/IRL doesnt happen, it'd be disastrous.
 
Pretty insane the tracks get such a massive slice of the pie.

It's not only NASCAR, this is a motorsports issue and it has been for ages. No one is just throwing out money anymore, so for teams to have to attain what is necessary to have more financial stability, the sanctioning body has to be willing to work and be flexible with them. A lot is in the balance because this next TV deal will be paramount and IMHO, NASCAR cannot beat around the bush with this.

I feel the teams should get their necessary cuts. I hope everyone is able to get what they need out of this.

Fans remember teams, drivers, and car numbers. They should be given their respected cut of the pie for all of the moving parts and pieces they have.
 
Some of this may well be bluster, but creating a more viable economic model is something that many various motorsports should be working on. The way it’s always been done isn’t necessarily the way it always should be done.


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So is it the teams or nascars fault the teams aren't making any money. Several of the small teams are remaining profitable. Nascar isn't mandating that they have a team of engineers, sim software, wind tunnel time and whatever else they dump millions into.

I get it they want more but the teams are the ones responsible for how much they spend.

Like I said in one of these other threads its easy to make demands but if you want more who gets less? Maybe the ratios need to change, but lets make sure we're not killing the sport to give you more money
 
Nothing of this is a shock. Unfortunately I think nascar holds all the power. I mean what are teams going to do start another series? Turns out nascar owns half the tracks. It's not like drivers are going to sit at home in protest.
I agree. The team owners came to the sport largely for sporting reasons... they want and need to race. This has disadvantaged them financially in terms of the business model that has evolved over ~75 years. But if you believe that ultimately water finds its natural level... that natural level would be a greater share for the teams.

We don't have financial statements for the various players, but there is substantial evidence that team ownership does not generate lucrative rates of return. Forbes used to publish estimates of team operating income, and their knowledgeable estimates showed paltry profits for even the most successful teams. The only ones getting rich on the teams side were the star drivers, not the team owners.

I've been saying for years that the greatest long-term risk to the sport is the risk of not having enough top-tier teams to put on the show each and every week. Most of the key team owners are well past normal retirement age, and I believe the day of reckoning is coming in the medium-term future on the racecar supply side. The Next Gen philosophy (the largely spec car, and other operating decisions affecting costs) are part of the answer. The revenue split is the other part, I believe.

NASCAR as the founder and owner of the series has been in an enviable position to skim a major slice of the profits. Media rights 10% share, plus sponsorships galore, plus sanction fees for every race... youza.

And there is ample evidence that "owning" a race is a goldmine to a track operator. Tracks net 65% of media rights (receive 90% and pay 25% to teams via the race purse), plus ticket sales, concessions, parking, camping, sponsorships... on and on. NASCAR owns the majority of tracks and race dates too, and SMI owns most of the rest. And NASCAR and SMI find a way to keep the goldmine even when going to a new venue, via track rentals at COTA and Road America, for example.

I hope the RTA is able to double their share over the coming years... maybe more.
 
Hopefully negotiations work for a larger slice of the pie for teams.
In a worst-case scenario would teams be able to “strike” and boycott races or are there contractual stipulations that don’t allow for a “strike?”
 
Hopefully negotiations work for a larger slice of the pie for teams.
In a worst-case scenario would teams be able to “strike” and boycott races or are there contractual stipulations that don’t allow for a “strike?”

I believe it would violate the charter agreements. If they skipped a race for non-authorized reasons, I would imagine they would forfeit all their charter money for the year, maybe even risk having their charter pulled.
 
So TV revenue is 65% Tracks, 25% teams and 10% NASCAR. Since NASCAR owns over half the tracks their cut is more than meets the eye. So if we cut track revenue to disperse to the teams then SMI is gonna hit the roof
A reminder that as current broadcast contracts near their end, the revenue stream is almost $1 Billion per year. New agreements are expected to pay more.

So ... currently $100 Million to NASCAR. They might consider some cost cutting of their own.
 
A reminder that as current broadcast contracts near their end, the revenue stream is almost $1 Billion per year. New agreements are expected to pay more.

So ... currently $100 Million to NASCAR. They might consider some cost cutting of their own.
*Waves*

We'd probably get sold off, again. Kidding, were fine over here... At least I hope.
 
Thinking outside the box... A few years ago, NASCAR was for sale. I wonder if the RTA discussed making an offer. Stranger things have happened, and could happen again.

Regarding leverage... The IRL/CART split in Indycar racing worked out badly for the sport. But there are other examples. In 1992, twenty of the biggest rodeo stars split off from the Professional Rodeo Cowboys Association and formed PBR (Professional Bull Riders). This was a resounding success.

Right now, the golf world is going through a similar deal... the PGA/LIV war. No one knows how that will turn out, but the Department of Justice has signalled that it will not allow the PGA to exercise monopoly powers against the upstart LIV league.
 
So is it the teams or nascars fault the teams aren't making any money. Several of the small teams are remaining profitable. Nascar isn't mandating that they have a team of engineers, sim software, wind tunnel time and whatever else they dump millions into.

I get it they want more but the teams are the ones responsible for how much they spend.

Like I said in one of these other threads its easy to make demands but if you want more who gets less? Maybe the ratios need to change, but lets make sure we're not killing the sport to give you more money

Gotta pay to play. You can't expect teams to cut back otherwise the on track product will suffer from a competition standpoint.

NASCAR/SMI has a significant profit margin every year, while teams are operating in the red, and that's the bottom line. Clearly the ratio needs to change. "Killing the sport" won't happen unless the teams (the backbone of the sport) decide to shut down, which is always a possibility if/when they decide it's no longer worth it. Also, with the new TV deal coming, there will be more money to go around.
 
The cars and the stars are The Show, not the racetracks and a museum in Charlotte.
They need somewhere to race though, and there’s a lot of value tied in places like Daytona, Talladega, Martinsville. If NASCAR had a bunch of scabs come in and race there while major teams locked out/walked out to go do their own thing, they probably wouldn’t be too poorly off on their own while the other group struggle to find somewhere to run events. It wouldn’t be too unlike the IRL having a very weak, unappealing field but retaining the Indy 500 while CART had all the sexy cars and stars, but this time with even fewer places to race. Eventually all the teams and drivers needed to be back at Indy and switched back over.
 
They need somewhere to race though, and there’s a lot of value tied in places like Daytona, Talladega, Martinsville. If NASCAR had a bunch of scabs come in and race there while major teams locked out/walked out to go do their own thing, they probably wouldn’t be too poorly off on their own while the other group struggle to find somewhere to run events. It wouldn’t be too unlike the IRL having a very weak, unappealing field but retaining the Indy 500 while CART had all the sexy cars and stars, but this time with even fewer places to race. Eventually all the teams and drivers needed to be back at Indy and switched back over.

NASCAR needs the teams, and the teams need NASCAR. They all know this. The CART/IRL split is a cautionary tale. If greed wins out, everyone loses.
 
Chicken / egg.

Too gruesome to contemplate a split. I’m betting they’ll work it out.
I don’t think it’ll ever get that bad, but NASCAR does hold many of the cards here.

Still think the teams deserve a bigger share. I didn’t see any tracks crying poverty through their financial statements when they were public. They won’t go out of business anytime soon.
 
Gotta pay to play. You can't expect teams to cut back otherwise the on track product will suffer from a competition standpoint.

NASCAR/SMI has a significant profit margin every year, while teams are operating in the red, and that's the bottom line. Clearly the ratio needs to change. "Killing the sport" won't happen unless the teams (the backbone of the sport) decide to shut down, which is always a possibility if/when they decide it's no longer worth it. Also, with the new TV deal coming, there will be more money to go around.
IMO, the on-track product is suffering in the form of Next Gen.
As a result driver safety is also waning.
NASCAR needs to stop being greedy. As stated above, people tune in to watch teams/drivers compete. NASCAR itself, isn’t the star.
 
Chris Polk is a senior executive in the Michael Jordan business empire. His opinion...




A this just in from NASCAR...



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A this just in from NASCAR...



An extension of the charter agreement? What does that even mean?

There's NASCAR again with more talk about lowering expenses. You know why that's their focus? Because they know they have a much bigger piece of the pie than they deserve, and they want to do whatever they can to keep it that way.
 
Will probably evolve into a combination of actions; a small revenue % bump, some version of cost cap per vehicle (would that also include driver salaries?), maybe an increase in # of cars per owner to consolidate overall costs.
 
Think you're right. I dont see the teams having leverage, unless someone talks to Uncle Tony and SRX becomes a THING, more than it is now. This will all be interesting to see itself play out. I pray a split like CART/IRL doesnt happen, it'd be disastrous.
You may have said it first, but the RTA led with their chin threatening to pull out of the series. Reasonable souls don't want that to happen from both sides, but the power is in Nascar's hands. It is a whole lot easier to find race cars and teams than a whole racing series from scratch.
 
I get it they want to a change to get profitable but with that teams need to look at why they're not making profit. Do you need a multimillion dollar pit crew training facility? Do you need 100 engineers? Do you need to be sending drivers off the a sim every week? It looks bad when you're complaining about not being able to make money but you have teams like front row and spire not complaining. Those guys are operating with a fraction of the workforce and still seem to be able to bring cars to the track.

With that being said nascar probably needs to look where they're spending money as well

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Here's a link to Jenna Fryer's piece for the Associated Press. It's a good review of the overall situation.


Also, Jordan Bianchi and Jeff Gluck posted an article at The Athletic. Its for subscribers only, but I've quoted from the piece in the box below...

NASCAR’s ‘broken’ business model: Why race teams are calling for change​

October 7, 2022
NASCAR race teams, unhappy about the state of financial negotiations with the sanctioning body, took the highly unusual step Friday of bringing their concerns to the media.

Four team representatives — Jeff Gordon of Hendrick Motorsports, Dave Alpern of Joe Gibbs Racing, Steve Newmark of Roush Fenway Keselowski Racing and Curtis Polk of 23XI Racing — met with a small group of reporters in an uptown Charlotte hotel to detail their disappointment and dissatisfaction with how NASCAR has reacted to their requests for a “fair” deal beginning with the 2025 charter agreements.

“There’s a total misalignment of interests,” said Polk, who is the longtime advisor for 23XI co-owner Michael Jordan. “As a result, the economic model is broken for the teams. … The sustainability of the teams in this sport is not very long-term unless we have a fundamental change in the model.”

Below, The Athletic’s Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi break down what’s happening, the issues at hand and what it means going forward.

Why are the teams upset?

For most NASCAR teams, sponsorship dollars make up between 60-80 percent of their overall revenue. That means when a brand like Mars Inc. (primarily through its M&M’s brand) decides to pull its millions of dollars in funding, JGR can no longer afford to re-sign a star driver like Kyle Busch unless it finds a new revenue source.

That has placed teams in a precarious position compared to those in other sports. RFK, which is under the Fenway Sports Group umbrella, said Major League Baseball teams have sponsorship account for 8-12 percent of their overall revenue; in the NHL, it’s 17-18 percent. Even in the English Premier League, which sells jersey sponsorship, that money only accounts for roughly a quarter of the total revenue.

Where does the rest come from? Revenue sharing of things like TV rights fees — which is where NASCAR teams are seeking a change (the current $8.2 billion TV deal expires after the 2024 season).

Teams feel NASCAR has enough money to strengthen their organizations to the point where sponsorship isn’t a critical piece to merely surviving each season but NASCAR is not being responsive to those needs.

“It’s a wonderful sport. People are in love with it and it produces a lot of money,” Polk said. “Let’s just be fair about it. Let’s be fair and equitable. That’s all we’re asking for.”

What do teams want from NASCAR?

The teams, who have been meeting with NASCAR through the Team Negotiation Committee (or TNC) have a mission statement for the talks: “All well-managed teams should be able to compete for a Cup championship and make a reasonable profit.”
https://theathletic.com/3574176/2022/09/10/kyle-busch-joe-gibbs-racing-breakup/
There are three items there.

First, “well-managed” refers to a team that spends smartly and doesn’t go crazy with its expenses.

Second, the “compete for a Cup championship” emphasizes the continued desire for parity instead of a handful of cars dominating the season every year.

Third, teams said they aren’t trying to double or triple their profits; they simply want to make a profit or at least break even (even powerhouse Hendrick is currently losing money each season, according to Gordon).

“At this point, I think the majority of teams would just appreciate not having a loss,” Newmark said.

Polk referenced the Formula One model. F1 is owned by Liberty Media, which is equivalent to the France family owning NASCAR; but in that series, teams receive 50 percent of F1’s revenues.

What has the timeline looked like?

According to the TNC (which is separate from the Race Team Alliance that unites the teams), executives and NASCAR officials began the discussions earlier this year. They worked in tandem behind the scenes and had kept the conversations private until now.

The TNC gathered the baseline financial information of seven organizations that were representative of the 16 charter owners and compiled them to give NASCAR a general idea of what a team had to spend on things like cars, pit crews, tires, travel and other essentials. Polk said NASCAR sat in on meetings, spoke with CFOs from various teams and took many notes without disagreement.

“I don’t think there’s anybody in NASCAR leadership that I’ve spoken to directly who doesn’t understand the team economic model is broken and needs some repair,” Polk said, though he added there has yet to be a conversation with NASCAR chairman and CEO Jim France.

The TNC then came up with a seven-point proposal, which was presented to NASCAR in June. Despite teams urging NASCAR to give them a response in the months since, Polk said the summer passed by with silence until NASCAR presented a counteroffer last week.


That counteroffer was highly dissatisfying, the TNC said, and showed the gulf between the two sides.

“We finally did get a response from them — and we’re very far apart,” Gordon said.

The TNC declined Friday to share any specific portion of its seven-point plan.

What was NASCAR’s counteroffer and why didn’t the teams like it?

The team representatives said NASCAR offered a small increase in revenue but also proposed a dramatic cost-cutting to save the teams money.

In other words: Instead of giving teams a much more significant share of TV revenue, NASCAR offered to help them reduce current expenses.

But the teams feel that’s untenable because there would be no way to reach those targets without “massive layoffs within our teams,” Polk said. Costs are already built into the new Next Gen car (all teams are required to buy the parts and pieces from a single-source supplier), and the only way to reduce more costs would be to sharply reduce the workforce within the NASCAR industry.

Teams believe that’s no way to run a major-league sport.

“I don’t know of another sports league — or business, for that matter — who came to prosperity through cutting,” Alpern said. “That’s fact. They don’t go together.”

Polk said the pressure to cut costs would stifle innovation and therefore impact competition in a negative way — ultimately diluting NASCAR’s product instead of strengthening it.

“You get to a solution by investing in your content,” Polk said. “We are the content — the teams, the drivers, the cars. That’s what people are paying for — to see us. You don’t make the sport better by trying to cheapen the content.”

Does NASCAR really have additional money it could give teams, or are teams just being greedy?

When International Speedway Corp. and Speedway Motorsports Inc. went from publicly traded companies to going private in 2019, financial disclosures filed with regulators were eye-popping to the teams.

Polk said the TNC’s calculations in the wake of those numbers showed 93 percent of value in NASCAR resides with the France family and the racetracks; only 7 percent of the value is connected to the race teams through their charter values.

To be clear, that’s value (what someone would pay to purchase it) and not revenue (actual dollars coming in). In terms of how the $820 million per year in TV money is split, 10 percent goes straight to NASCAR, 65 percent goes to the tracks (which are mostly owned by NASCAR and SMI) and 25 percent goes to race teams through the purse.

The TNC representatives emphasized they are not looking for a specific percentage of TV money from NASCAR, but rather an overall business model shift that would put the teams on more stable ground.

Newmark called these conversations a “pivotal moment” and said it would have “a monumental impact on the future of our sport.”

“Our goal throughout this process is stability, longevity and the idea of hopefully bringing a new paradigm to the sport which lifts all the stakeholders,” Newmark said.

This sounds like it could get ugly. Could we be headed toward another situation like the CART/IRL split which crippled open-wheel racing?

IndyCar was America’s premier form of racing until it infamously fractured into two series in 1996 and opened the door for NASCAR’s rise.

With the teams/drivers firmly in one camp and NASCAR/racetracks in another, is it possible something like that could happen again? Would drivers and teams dare to form their own series — or threaten to do so as a bargaining chip?

TNC representatives certainly gave no hint of such a thing on Friday.

“We love this sport,” Polk said. “This is the No. 1 motor racing series in America, if not the world, and all we’re looking for is a fair deal.”

Said Newmark: “Right now the focus is on trying to make sure we can get a deal that continues to grow the sport. … That’s the singular objective at this point.”

What is NASCAR’s response to all of this?

NASCAR released a statement shortly after publication.

“NASCAR acknowledges the challenges currently facing race teams,” the statement said. “A key focus moving forward is an extension to the Charter agreement, one that will further increase revenue and help lower team expenses. Collectively, the goal is a strong, healthy sport, and we will accomplish that together.”


 
I get it they want to a change to get profitable but with that teams need to look at why they're not making profit. Do you need a multimillion dollar pit crew training facility? Do you need 100 engineers? Do you need to be sending drivers off the a sim every week? It looks bad when you're complaining about not being able to make money but you have teams like front row and spire not complaining. Those guys are operating with a fraction of the workforce and still seem to be able to bring cars to the track.

With that being said nascar probably needs to look where they're spending money as well

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So what's the solution? Spend less, and become a midpack team in hopes that you'll MAYBE turn a profit? Why should the teams who invest the most and try the hardest to win be penalized for it?

That's like saying the Pittsburgh Pirates and Cincinnati Reds look good because they don't complain about finishing at the bottom of their division.
 
So what's the solution? Spend less, and become a midpack team in hopes that you'll MAYBE turn a profit? Why should the teams who invest the most and try the hardest to win be penalized for it?

That's like saying the Pittsburgh Pirates and Cincinnati Reds look good because they don't complain about finishing at the bottom of their division.
What he said in the first sentence is the solution. Reasonable assessing of strengths and weaknesses. I agree with the teams wanting less dependence on sponsors, but there is also more than one way to accomplish that goal.
 
So what's the solution? Spend less, and become a midpack team in hopes that you'll MAYBE turn a profit? Why should the teams who invest the most and try the hardest to win be penalized for it?

That's like saying the Pittsburgh Pirates and Cincinnati Reds look good because they don't complain about finishing at the bottom of their division.
Who's to say that if you give them more money they'll make a profit. Teams have shown in the past they'll spend as much money as they can to beat anyone else. If they're so worried about making a profit maybe they need to agree to salary cap and a limit of resources.....no let's not do that just give me more money. What are they going to say in 3 years if they're given more money and still not making a profit?

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not true at all. Cut the fat, use that money elsewhere where it does the most good. Work smart, Winner mentality.

Cut the fat? Obviously they think that "fat" is worth the expense. Speed costs money. NASCAR already banned testing, restricted wind tunnel time, and made spec parts mandatory. These are cost cutting maneuvers that make sense for everyone, but where else should these teams be spending their money to gain a competitive advantage?

Who's to say that if you give them more money they'll make a profit. Teams have shown in the past they'll spend as much money as they can to beat anyone else. If they're so worried about making a profit maybe they need to agree to salary cap and a limit of resources.....no let's not do that just give me more money. What are they going to say in 3 years if they're given more money and still not making a profit?

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It's impossible to impose a salary cap in auto racing. Why should those with the deepest pockets be forced to limit their resources even further? NASCAR is extremely fortunate to have owners like Hendrick, Gibbs, Penske etc. who are willing to do whatever it takes to be the best. So why should NASCAR see insane profits every year while their top competitors aren't making a dime? Imagine the CEO of a business making millions off of their employees, who aren't seeing any profits whatsoever. In what world does that make sense?
 
This sport needs to spend more money, not less, but that cuts into their revenue/profit.
 
The drivers are the reason NASCAR is even making money in the first place. They are the reason ticket sell, the reason people watch on tv, etc. If you don’t think they deserve the teams and drivers deserve a bigger piece then I don’t know what to tell you.
 
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