NASCAR's 1.5 mile problem

NJJammer

NJJammer

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NASCAR runs on eight 1.5 mile tracks for a total of 11 Cup races a season (12 with the All-Star race.)

In my opinion, they need to differentiate the "cookie cutters" more by varying banking (which they are already doing) including adding asymmetrical turns and perhaps cutting some tracks to between 1 and 1.3 miles in length.

We need more Darlingtons in this sport.

I believe the more varied challenges presented to drivers/teams would result in better racing as well as a more varied schedule for viewers and attendees alike.

Opinions?
 
How about a cork screw down the back stretch at Kansas?
 
I will always maintain Atlanta got ruined when it was formed into a cookie cutter.
Great finishes if you can stay awake for the 330 laps of cruise control 10 car links apart.

At a minimum:
"My" changes would be all 1.5 triovals only get one date on the schedule.
 
There are 9 tracks hosting 12 races, including Darlington but excluding the All Star show. It makes no sense to disparage 1.5 milers as all alike, but conveniently leave Darlington out because it is 236 yards shorter. It's not different because of the 236 yards.

I believe the 1.5 problem is actually an aero problem, not a race track problem. Kudos to Nascar for reducing downforce substantially, and I'm hopeful Goodyear will continue to refine the tires for the new low downforce era. The challenges of the tracks are ample and plenty varied IMO. I like the mix of tracks, although there needs to be several more road courses. Six races on short tracks plus six on one mile tracks is enough. Please, no more of those.
 
My problem is not with the 1.5s as much as the 5 races a year we have on the "flat tracks". Loudon is too big to be that flat. Pocono can produce great stuff but 2 times a year is too much. Indianapolis is dreadful. I agree we need more darlingtons, rockinghams, etc.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I believe the 1.5 problem is actually an aero problem, not a race track problem. Kudos to Nascar for reducing downforce substantially, and I'm hopeful Goodyear will continue to refine the tires for the new low downforce era. The challenges of the tracks are ample and plenty varied IMO. I like the mix of tracks, although there needs to be several more road courses. Six races on short tracks plus six on one mile tracks is enough. Please, no more of those.
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Remember last year, the new aero package was suppose to fix Atlanta? It did not.
Same kinda racing. I wish they would go ahead and bite the bullet - get rid of the splitter.
 
Fordracing7 said:
My problem is not with the 1.5s as much as the 5 races a year we have on the "flat tracks". Loudon is too big to be that flat. Pocono can produce great stuff but 2 times a year is too much. Indianapolis is dreadful. I agree we need more darlingtons, rockinghams, etc.
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Yeah this is another problem. Those tracks eat up a whole month of the summer schedule when NASCAR's audience is most captive. Unfortunately, the low downforce direction NASCAR has gone towards hasn't helped one bit with these tracks. The new package is meant for the 1.5'ers and it shows.
 
With driverless cars coming into reality, plus the interest with young people going to electric cars NA$CAR needs to figure out a way to get people to the tracks.
 
How about a different aero package tailored to each type of race track? I'm thinking NASCAR should have a plate package, an intermediate (current package), one for the flat tracks, and one for the short tracks and road courses. Change the cars so they produce the best possible racing at every track instead of vainly trying to radically alter the tracks themselves or the schedule. That ain't happening.
 
I was just looking at the 1994 schedule which was the year I got interested in NASCAR and followed just about the whole season.

There were 31 races that year and the big talk of the season was that the Brickyard 400 had its inaugural race.
Atlanta, Phoenix, and Bristol had their original configurations.
Rockingham and North Wilkesboro both had 2 dates on the schedule.

I remember the Bristol races were just awesome. There were a lot of rivalries and lots of drama on the track. If you moved someone they got you back the next race. It was an unwritten sport code at the time.

Very good year to be a fan.
 
My views on 1.5 mile tracks is, I like them. They are not all the same, yes they are 1.5 miles but not the same corners, curve duration, banking, widths, pavement age etc. Most are very fast, which I like a lot. The ability to make a car competitive on these tracks has proven to be quite a challenge to all competitors, which is a good thing.

But hay, I like Nascar Racing. :D
 
NJJammer said:
NASCAR runs on eight 1.5 mile tracks for a total of 11 Cup races a season (12 with the All-Star race.)

In my opinion, they need to differentiate the "cookie cutters" more by varying banking (which they are already doing) including adding asymmetrical turns and perhaps cutting some tracks to between 1 and 1.3 miles in length.

We need more Darlingtons in this sport.

I believe the more varied challenges presented to drivers/teams would result in better racing as well as a more varied schedule for viewers and attendees alike.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

If I have to keep all 36 races at the tracks in use I would insist that all tracks over 1.5 miles with 2 races offer an alternative racing surface for 1 of the races. Part of the current track could be used but the layout would have to be significantly different. Some events could be turned into road course events and some could be made into tracks within tracks with distances of a half mile to a mile.

The other alternative would be to keep the status quo and develop a car that would race well on the track 1.5 miles and longer.
 
Texas and Kentucky are no longer "cookie cutters." The only true cookie cutters remaining are Atlanta and Charlotte (and Atlanta is technically not a 1.5-miler either; hence why they run 8 fewer laps than TX and Charlotte).

I'm all for more short tracks, but have generally been pleased with the differentiation of tracks that has gone on the last couple years.
 
Acs said:
How about a different aero package tailored to each type of race track? I'm thinking NASCAR should have a plate package, an intermediate (current package), one for the flat tracks, and one for the short tracks and road courses. Change the cars so they produce the best possible racing at every track instead of vainly trying to radically alter the tracks themselves or the schedule. That ain't happening.
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That is a good thought, but I'm not sure what the separate packages would entail. The current package works great on short tracks and road courses IMO. And I think the flat track problem was really more of a Gibbs problem in 2016. I'm not an expert, but I blame it on rear steer shenanigans or something similar.
 
Jimmie Johnson and his crew chef love 1.5 mile tracks, that's all they have to set their cars up for, note their 8 Championships. Worse is the fact that NA$CAR knows this but won't change this, which is sad because NA$CAR is killing their own sport because they think they know better than the paying fans.
 
LewTheShoe said:
There are 9 tracks hosting 12 races, including Darlington but excluding the All Star show. It makes no sense to disparage 1.5 milers as all alike, but conveniently leave Darlington out because it is 236 yards shorter. It's not different because of the 236 yards.

I believe the 1.5 problem is actually an aero problem, not a race track problem. Kudos to Nascar for reducing downforce substantially, and I'm hopeful Goodyear will continue to refine the tires for the new low downforce era. The challenges of the tracks are ample and plenty varied IMO. I like the mix of tracks, although there needs to be several more road courses. Six races on short tracks plus six on one mile tracks is enough. Please, no more of those.
Click to expand...
Absolutely I get confused about Darlington all the time.
If it weren't for no dog leg, an abrasive track, the glorious closing speeds of tire degradation on a insanely narrow eggshaped groove I would be thinking it was one of those unique cookie cutters.

Darlington really needs to get with it , with some yellow painted walls like Charlotte for some character .Or get something like those coveted caps guns they get to shoot in the Texas Victory lane.

What a tortured logic.
 
^ Don't try to put words in my mouth that I did not say, nor imply. Thanks.
 
LewTheShoe said:
^ Don't try to put words in my mouth that I did not say, nor imply. Thanks.
Click to expand...

LewTheShoe said:
There are 9 tracks hosting 12 races, including Darlington but excluding the All Star show. It makes no sense to disparage 1.5 milers as all alike, but conveniently leave Darlington out because it is 236 yards shorter. It's not different because of the 236 yards.
Click to expand...

No harm intended here other than wanting to challange your point. And I do enjoy your writing, you put a lot of thought into your comments and it is appreciated.

But I honestly have to say that I will need to work on my reading comprehension. Because I still think you wanted to classify Darlington as being essentially the same.

Peace out.
 
Acs said:
Atlanta rocked last year, what were you watching?
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I can distinctly remember Monday morning NASCAR XM shows said that the new package did not deliver
the racing excitement that was expected. I whole heartedly agree since the first 210 laps of the race stayed that
special color known as cruise control green. A record! As I mentioned, Atlanta can produce some decent endings.
I have been there for a lot of them most notably Harvicks win the year Earnhardt Sr. passed, 2001.

I am glad the race rocked for you though! :) :punkrocke :)

****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Notes: Rookie Chase Elliott finished eighth in his first race experience with NASCAR's 2016 lower-downforce rules package. ... The race stayed green for the first 210 laps, a track record from the start of a Sprint Cup event. The caution that ended the race was the third of the afternoon. ... After his second straight third-place finish, Kyle Busch leads the series standings by three points over Daytona 500 runner-up Martin Truex Jr. Harvick is third, four points behind Busch.
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Link to full article:
http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-me...t-race-recap-folds-of-honor-quiktrip-500.html
 
Greg said:
But I honestly have to say that I will need to work on my reading comprehension. Because I still think you wanted to classify Darlington as being essentially the same
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The point I'm trying to make is that NONE of them are the same. And looking at line diagrams from above is grossly inadequate to appreciate their individual character and the challenges they pose to the drivers and teams.

The Texas pavement is closer to Darlington than it is to Charlotte... well, it was until this winters repave. Now Texas has lower banking and is much wider in 1 and 2, so still nothing like Charlotte.

There is no other track like Homestead. It is unique. It's closest brother is probably Darlington, but the two are different. No other intermediate track has a flat turn 3 like Kentucky, the banking comes up in turn 4, but 3 is quite flat. And so on. My point is that serious, knowledgeable fans of Nascar should recognize these unique traits. [End of my rant]
 
AdoubleU24 said:
What did Atlanta look like before?
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AtlantaMS1992.c38e8a828ce2664a1a1eb720b1d0bcb5_zps3furfxck.png
 
LewTheShoe said:
The point I'm trying to make is that NONE of them are the same. And looking at line diagrams from above is grossly inadequate to appreciate their individual character and the challenges they pose to the drivers and teams.

The Texas pavement is closer to Darlington than it is to Charlotte... well, it was until this winters repave. Now Texas has lower banking and is much wider in 1 and 2, so still nothing like Charlotte.

There is no other track like Homestead. It is unique. It's closest brother is probably Darlington, but the two are different. No other intermediate track has a flat turn 3 like Kentucky, the banking comes up in turn 4, but 3 is quite flat. And so on. My point is that serious, knowledgeable fans of Nascar should recognize these unique traits. [End of my rant]
Click to expand...

Lots of great points. I've only been a dedicated NASCAR fan since 2010 and I appreciate reading about the details of the tracks from more experienced fans like yourself. Many casual viewers who I tried to get into the sport just see a 1.5 mile track and think they really are "cookie cutters" and they get turned off by it. I appreciate the true diversity of tracks on the schedule but wish they had more easily distinguishable characteristics than how they seem portrayed on TV. The announcers like Jeff Gordon could help the average Joe by diving into such details as you mentioned in your post.
 
I'm thinking some double jumps or an off camber turn would spice them right up. The jumps would be good reason to get rid of the splitter and start actually using springs again. Or just go the Tony Stewart route and run half the cars the opposite way...
 
29-4 said:
Texas and Kentucky are no longer "cookie cutters." The only true cookie cutters remaining are Atlanta and Charlotte (and Atlanta is technically not a 1.5-miler either; hence why they run 8 fewer laps than TX and Charlotte).

I'm all for more short tracks, but have generally been pleased with the differentiation of tracks that has gone on the last couple years.
Click to expand...
Vegas, Kansas, Chicago.
 
LewTheShoe said:
The point I'm trying to make is that NONE of them are the same. And looking at line diagrams from above is grossly inadequate to appreciate their individual character and the challenges they pose to the drivers and teams.

The Texas pavement is closer to Darlington than it is to Charlotte... well, it was until this winters repave. Now Texas has lower banking and is much wider in 1 and 2, so still nothing like Charlotte.

There is no other track like Homestead. It is unique. It's closest brother is probably Darlington, but the two are different. No other intermediate track has a flat turn 3 like Kentucky, the banking comes up in turn 4, but 3 is quite flat. And so on. My point is that serious, knowledgeable fans of Nascar should recognize these unique traits. [End of my rant]
Click to expand...

I consider myself a serious fan, and I believe the discussed tracks are far too close or similar. I recognize those tracks drive differently and are not exact specs and I never expected anyone to believe they were exact. Honestly the suggestion would be a trivial at the best.

But the end all be all imo, is the appreciated differences fans see. If we had as many egg shaped ovals like Darlington that would also be an over saturation, with a similar contempt in spite any banking and surface differences.

And that over saturation was facilitated by removing dates from tracks that were much more unique. In addition to this Atlanta was reconfigured to a similar model.

IMO the fans that complain are us, our people not a bunch of snide malcontents. We love oval track racing and take it seriously, the passion compels intense critics. And I would have to mentally disengage to avoid some cynicism that apparently you seek to defuse. I get that some folks do not want to hear it, still the same I think the complaints are valid ones
 
LewTheShoe said:
That is a good thought, but I'm not sure what the separate packages would entail. The current package works great on short tracks and road courses IMO. And I think the flat track problem was really more of a Gibbs problem in 2016. I'm not an expert, but I blame it on rear steer shenanigans or something similar.
Click to expand...

Who wouldn't want to see stronger, lined up bumpers at short tracks and road courses? You could beat and bang your way to the front all day without destroying your car.

For the flat tracks, it's gonna take a lot of work and a lot of smart people to make them race good. But the key thing is, simply lowering the downforce, lowering the mid-corner speeds, increasing the speed delta between corner entry and mid-corner hasn't worked so far like it has at the intermediates. I'll give you an example; in 2016 the delta between corner entry and mid-corner speed was about 29 mph at the spring Dover race everyone loved. It was also about 30 mph at vegas. Loudon? 60mph. Pocono turn 1? 55mph. Indianapolis? The Kyle Busch snoozefest? 52 mph. There has to be a different approach.
 
I wish in the boom of the 90's some of these new tracks like Kansas or Chicagoland were made to be a clone of Wilkesboro. I went to the Chicago Motorspeedway in Cicero,Il right outside of Chicago, I wish that track had been built where Chicagoland is now. I loved the racing at that short track.
 
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