NASCAR’s personality problem

The Nature Boy said:
I've posted before about how much I hate that dirt has gotten such a following that even NASCAR and its drivers are boosting it while lower-tier pavement racing (including the Truck Series) is dying. If you want to get talented stock car drivers, you need a well funded and supported grassroots. The problem today is that you can't get a ride at even the lowest level without money. We need Cup Series drivers going to the local short track and running races to boost attendance in order to bring in more money, not hopping in a sprint car and boosting an entirely different discipline.

The grassroots of stock car racing is incredibly being filled with trust fund babies and I think we're seeing that reflected in the talent levels (or lack thereof) in the Truck Series. It's only a matter of time before that crap gets to Cup.
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Pavement races don't pay 100K or more to win until you get to XFinity Series and the costs to run a pavement late model are astronomical compared to a dirt equivalent racing for more money. This isn't something for the Cup drivers to fix. This is something for NASCAR to fix.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Pavement races don't pay 100K or more to win until you get to XFinity Series and the costs to run a pavement late model are astronomical compared to a dirt equivalent racing for more money. This isn't something for the Cup drivers to fix. This is something for NASCAR to fix.
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I agree. NASCAR needs to take a more hands on approach to its grassroots. They could start by putting a spending cap in place for ARCA and East and West Series. They could then provide some direct funding aid to local short tracks and set up a grant funding mechanism for teams that need cash to keep going.

The ultimate goal should be to attract sponsorship for underfunded drivers, and you need eyeballs for that. A Cup guy running would get some attention but it’s definitely far from the only solution.

If I were NASCAR, I would take away playoff waivers for injuries sustained in non-stock car activities (which also includes snowboarding). NASCAR shouldn’t be boosting the dirt scene and mitigating the risk its drivers take when they run dirt open wheel races.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I agree. NASCAR needs to take a more hands on approach to its grassroots. They could start by putting a spending cap in place for ARCA and East and West Series. They could then provide some direct funding aid to local short tracks and set up a grant funding mechanism for teams that need cash to keep going.
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Spending caps for ARCA won't fix anything because their national races pay $10K to win. You could carve down the budgets appreciably and it probably still winds up being a net negative to roll off the trailer with a car that isn't good for anything else but ARCA and a series that has lower car counts than some struggling tracks pull for limited late models or mods. They need to increase the win money or straight up subsidize participation.

The Nature Boy said:
If I were NASCAR, I would take away playoff waivers for injuries sustained in non-stock car activities (which also includes snowboarding). NASCAR shouldn’t be boosting the dirt scene and mitigating the risk its drivers take when they run dirt open wheel races.
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Find me another sport with "playoff waivers" before I even remotely consider the idea acceptable in the first place. I don't dislike Kyle Busch but his title win when he missed half the year was when I decided being Cup Champion no longer meant anything to me. YMMV, I am fine with anyone's opinion, but that's how I feel and probably nothing is changing that.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Find me another sport with "playoff waivers" before I even remotely consider the idea acceptable in the first place. I don't dislike Kyle Busch but his title win when he missed half the year was when I decided being Cup Champion no longer meant anything to me. YMMV, I am fine with anyone's opinion, but that's how I feel and probably nothing is changing that.
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You can't compare it to other sports, seeing as NASCAR is a driver sport with a separate championship for the team. An NFL quarterback could be injured, miss 4-5 games, and still come back to win the Super Bowl. It's already common practice for teams that are locked in to rest starters the final week.

The solution is to do away with waivers, do away with the requirement to run every race, and make the criteria for making the playoff a little stricter (top-20 or top-25).

NASCAR is afraid of a hypothetical scenario where Chase Elliott gets locked in and decides to skip a few races. Which is an unfounded fear, IMO. Those stage points and playoff points are too important. We've seen drivers basically lock themselves into the semifinal round by racking up enough of them during the season.

The only scenario where this fear can become a reality is in the semifinal round itself, if someone's locked in before Martinsville and decides to sit that one out. Which still wouldn't happen most likely and who cares if it did.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
You can't compare it to other sports, seeing as NASCAR is a driver sport with a separate championship for the team. An NFL quarterback could be injured, miss 4-5 games, and still come back to win the Super Bowl. It's already common practice for teams that are locked in to rest starters the final week.
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I don't want to turn this into a playoff thread and thus won't, but regardless, NASCAR has a playoff specifically because other American sports do and none of them have waivers. The Jets don't get to be in the playoffs this year just because Aaron Rogers got hurt and might be back in time for the Wild Card round.

AndyMarquisLive said:
The solution is to do away with waivers, do away with the requirement to run every race, and make the criteria for making the playoff a little stricter (top-20 or top-25).
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NOPE. NEGATORY.

The solution is to do away with waivers if you don't want NASCAR to totally Calvinball itself every other year. That's true. There should be a requirement to run every race. You know why? If I pay money to see the World of Outlaws, I expect to see the Outlaws. I expect Carson Macedo, Donny Schatz, and David Gravel. That is what is being sold to me. I also expect, when I pay to see the elite level of American motorsports, that I will get the full time Cup drivers. Yes, I know they can get hurt; I was a hardcore boxing fan for a quarter century and have read some variation of "Card Subject to Change" tens of thousands of times. I know what the response is and I'm getting ahead of it because we both know that if guys only needed to race X times a year in Cup, that's what they'd do and not a day more than that unless they got a great percentage of the purse. The TV partners, the venues (which half the time is also literally NASCAR), the commercial partners, none of them would want that.

AndyMarquisLive said:
The only scenario where this fear can become a reality is in the semifinal round itself, if someone's locked in before Martinsville and decides to sit that one out. Which still wouldn't happen most likely and who cares if it did.
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The issue isn't just that someone like Kyle Larson skips Martinsville. It's everyone else skipping Martinsville too and trying to negotiate sponsorship deals based around these guys being in cars and racing them. It's just not an option. Cup, F1, Indycar: none of them are seriously considering letting their drivers go pick-and-choose "true outlaw" while competing for championships. No one does even at grass roots levels!
 
The Nature Boy said:
I've posted before about how much I hate that dirt has gotten such a following that even NASCAR and its drivers are boosting it while lower-tier pavement racing (including the Truck Series) is dying. If you want to get talented stock car drivers, you need a well funded and supported grassroots. The problem today is that you can't get a ride at even the lowest level without money. We need Cup Series drivers going to the local short track and running races to boost attendance in order to bring in more money, not hopping in a sprint car and boosting an entirely different discipline.

The grassroots of stock car racing is incredibly being filled with trust fund babies and I think we're seeing that reflected in the talent levels (or lack thereof) in the Truck Series. It's only a matter of time before that crap gets to Cup.
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More “grassroots” tracks could get a NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series & NASCAR Xfinity Series Race instead of going to Kansas Speedway or Atlanta Motor Speedway twice a season as an example.

And yes, ARCA Menards Series & ARCA West/ARCA East need boosted payouts.
 
virtualbalboa said:
There should be a requirement to run every race. You know why? If I pay money to see the World of Outlaws, I expect to see the Outlaws. I expect Carson Macedo, Donny Schatz, and David Gravel. That is what is being sold to me. I also expect, when I pay to see the elite level of American motorsports, that I will get the full time Cup drivers.
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NASCAR had a points system in place for decades where drivers would routinely lock up the championship with 2, 3, 4+ races remaining and, if they wanted to, they could sit at home the rest of the season. It literally never happened. I didn't see Dale Earnhardt sitting on the couch during Atlanta in 1994. I didn't see Jeff Gordon sitting on the couch in 1998, or at New Hampshire in 2001. It just didn't happen.

The "requirement" is a solution to a non-existent problem. The problem itself becomes negated by the importance of stage points and playoff points. No driver is willingly sitting races out.

What you're suggesting is that a driver missing a race due to injury or illness, or being wrongfully suspended over baseless accusations (see: Kurt Busch, 2015) should be a death penalty.

virtualbalboa said:
The issue isn't just that someone like Kyle Larson skips Martinsville. It's everyone else skipping Martinsville too and trying to negotiate sponsorship deals based around these guys being in cars and racing them. It's just not an option. Cup, F1, Indycar: none of them are seriously considering letting their drivers go pick-and-choose "true outlaw" while competing for championships. No one does even at grass roots levels!
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No full-time Cup driver is going to willingly sit out a race.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
What you're suggesting is that a driver missing a race due to injury or illness, or being wrongfully suspended over baseless accusations (see: Kurt Busch, 2015) should be a death penalty.
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I think we should use the waiver as a way to incentivize certain actions. If you want a playoff waiver for an injury, it has to be an injury that occurs during a stock car racing activity. If you go off and drive sprint cars or go snowboarding, you're SOL. All other instances (suspensions..etc) can dealt with on a case by case basis.

NASCAR can make it clear that if you engage in risky activities off the track (including racing dirt sprint cars), you are doing so at your own risk and you won't be eligible for a playoff spot if you hurt yourself in the process.

If drivers want to race in the spare time and retain their playoff eligibility in case of injury, they can hop in a late model. NASCAR has no reason to promote other forms of racing, especially when participation in those forms of racing hurts their drivers.
 
virtualbalboa said:
I know what the response is and I'm getting ahead of it because we both know that if guys only needed to race X times a year in Cup, that's what they'd do and not a day more than that unless they got a great percentage of the purse. The TV partners, the venues (which half the time is also literally NASCAR), the commercial partners, none of them would want that.
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Again, this is not going to happen. This would require a driver to know how many races they're going to miss and still be playoff-eligible, when that's going to change week-by-week.

If a driver decides he's going to skip the final five regular season races because he has a win, a string of DNFs could put him on the bubble in the scenario that NASCAR places a requirement to stay inside the top-20/25 in points. Just like that, those bad results means, he has to race.

And playoff points are too damn important. Kyle Larson is not going to leave 6, 12, 18, 24+ playoff points on the table to go fishing.

NASCAR has unnecessairly created these "what-ifs" because they want drivers fluking their way into the playoffs with a win at Daytona or Talladega each year.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The only scenario where this fear can become a reality is in the semifinal round itself, if someone's locked in before Martinsville and decides to sit that one out. Which still wouldn't happen most likely and who cares if it did.
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I'm pretty sure that in this sponsor-driven era, contracts will say the driver has to run all races unless medically unable, etc.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I think we should use the waiver as a way to incentivize certain actions. If you want a playoff waiver for an injury, it has to be an injury that occurs during a stock car racing activity. If you go off and drive sprint cars or go snowboarding, you're SOL. All other instances (suspensions..etc) can dealt with on a case by case basis.

NASCAR can make it clear that if you engage in risky activities off the track (including racing dirt sprint cars), you are doing so at your own risk and you won't be eligible for a playoff spot if you hurt yourself in the process.

If drivers want to race in the spare time and retain their playoff eligibility in case of injury, they can hop in a late model. NASCAR has no reason to promote other forms of racing, especially when participation in those forms of racing hurts their drivers.
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I don't think getting hurt in a sprint car should result in retaining playoff eligibility.

I just don't think the waivers should exist. bull**** solution to a non-existent problem.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
What you're suggesting is that a driver missing a race due to injury or illness, or being wrongfully suspended over baseless accusations (see: Kurt Busch, 2015) should be a death penalty.
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Getting rid of the driver championship and renaming the owner's championship to 'Team Championship' would take care of that. It would take some rules jiggering to handle 'win and you're in' but shouldn't be too much problem. A driver already has to declare which series he's going to run for points; a team would have to declare a driver of record but be allowed to run a sub in case of injury.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Getting rid of the driver championship and renaming the owner's championship to 'Team Championship' would take care of that. It would take some rules jiggering to handle 'win and you're in' but shouldn't be too much problem. A driver already has to declare which series he's going to run for points; a team would have to declare a driver of record but be allowed to run a sub in case of injury.
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If they changed it to a Team Championship, I'd like to see other factors go into it - such as pit stop times, for instance.

It really does suck how little recognition the rest of the team gets.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
If they changed it to a Team Championship, I'd like to see other factors go into it - such as pit stop times, for instance. It really does suck how little recognition the rest of the team gets.
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One of the things I miss about Rockingham was the pit crew championship. That could be revived at any track. I recall it was part of All-Star week at one point, but I think it fell apart when they added a pit stop to qualifying. I also miss the hauler driver rodeo. I recall that was a four-event championship.

Sure, toss in five points per race for the crew with the fastest stop. Heck, toss in four for second-fastest, three for third, etc. Only one award per team per race; if you're fastest and third, you get only five points and no one get three. Oh, and have Benny give them each $100 ;)
 
Charlie Spencer said:
One of the things I miss about Rockingham was the pit crew championship. That could be revived at any track. I recall it was part of All-Star week at one point, but I think it fell apart when they added a pit stop to qualifying.

I also miss the hauler driver rodeo. I recall that was a four-event championship.
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The Pit Crew Challenge is part of All Star Qualifying now.

I preferred it as a standalone event too.

I also think they should spotlight the fastest pit crew in each cycle of pit stops during the broadcast. NBC/TNT used to do that early in their initial run. They also used to have that "Benny and the Pits" segment each week where they profiled a crew member.

I miss the OG "Countdown to Green" even if I don't miss not having to look it up because Billy already did.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
If a driver decides he's going to skip the final five regular season races because he has a win, a string of DNFs could put him on the bubble in the scenario that NASCAR places a requirement to stay inside the top-20/25 in points. Just like that, those bad results means, he has to race.
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There really should be a requirement to be in the top 20 in order to get into the Playoffs. Anyone entering the playoffs from a low regular season finish is usually out in the Round of 16 anyway, they're just taking a spot from someone who could make a legitimate run.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
NASCAR had a points system in place for decades where drivers would routinely lock up the championship with 2, 3, 4+ races remaining and, if they wanted to, they could sit at home the rest of the season. It literally never happened. I didn't see Dale Earnhardt sitting on the couch during Atlanta in 1994. I didn't see Jeff Gordon sitting on the couch in 1998, or at New Hampshire in 2001. It just didn't happen.
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Why didn't those guys stay home? Well, I'm guessing DuPont had expectations about Jeff Gordon showing up to race when he was healthy. But if you say "You only need to race 20 of the 26 non-playoff races to qualify" then guys who don't have that sort of sponsor demand (which is now literally everyone) are going to skip races or their car owner will seek a ride buyer to fill the space when it is fiscally worth their while. The sponsor situation is totally different now as are the team agreements.

AndyMarquisLive said:
What you're suggesting is that a driver missing a race due to injury or illness, or being wrongfully suspended over baseless accusations (see: Kurt Busch, 2015) should be a death penalty.
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If a driver is so profoundly incapacitated that they are unable to get in the race car to make the start and promptly hand the car off to someone else and this happens multiple times, yeah, I do not believe they should be competing for a driver's championship. I am willing to accept that this may not be something you or others agree with and I accept that if that's the way everyone wants it, then the sport may not be for me and my interests may be better served elsewhere.

In regards to Kurt Busch: if the NFL were to suspend a team's star player for a baseless accusation, they wouldn't then get losses overturned when the player was reinstated. The way to improve that situation is not waivers, it's on how NASCAR penalizes drivers.

AndyMarquisLive said:
No full-time Cup driver is going to willingly sit out a race.
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Maybe not today....
 
virtualbalboa said:
if the NFL were to suspend a team's star player for a baseless accusation
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free-brady-rally.jpg


#NeverForget
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Not ever.

Have you ever met some of these racers? They would race seven nights a week if they could.
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Some, yes. Some, no. Others would skip races to chase bigger paydays outside Cup. It all depends on the individual. But nowhere have I seen any indication that this is something NASCAR would like to codify specifically because it would permit what I'm saying would obviously happen. Imagine a "summer series" on Amazon consisting of fill in guys while the real stars who already won races are on the beach.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm pretty sure that in this sponsor-driven era, contracts will say the driver has to run all races unless medically unable, etc.
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Your common sense remark has been buried in nonsense.

Imagine a sponsor cutting a multi-million dollar check to cover 6 races as the primary and 30 races as a secondary sponsor of a Cup car without a contractual clause identifying the driver.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Some, yes. Some, no. Others would skip races to chase bigger paydays outside Cup. It all depends on the individual. But nowhere have I seen any indication that this is something NASCAR would like to codify specifically because it would permit what I'm saying would obviously happen. Imagine a "summer series" on Amazon consisting of fill in guys while the real stars who already won races are on the beach.
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The Summer Series on Prime has the potential to reach more eyeballs than any race on FS1 or USA, so nobody's sitting that out.
 
aunty dive said:
Your common sense remark has been buried in nonsense.

Imagine a sponsor cutting a multi-million dollar check to cover 6 races as the primary and 30 races as a secondary sponsor of a Cup car without a contractual clause identifying the driver.
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The sport has been sponsor driven since the 1980s: what it hasn't been is this jumbled in terms of sponsors because costs are out of line with revenue. Letting drivers take weeks off only emboldens owners to have more driving by committee like you see in XFinity.
 
Discussing Days of Thunder in relation to real racing makes me feel dumber than listening to a NBC gerbil hyperventilating.
Who gives a fuk about what some horsesheit Cole Trickle was about, he was a BS character more suited for bumper car racing.
At least Jeff Burton was a real race car driver.

It should be all about the driving and the skills rather than who is Joe Cool.
 
Greg said:
Discussing Days of Thunder in relation to real racing makes me feel dumber than listening to a NBC gerbil hyperventilating.
Who gives a fuk about what some horsesheit Cole Trickle was about, he was a BS character more suited for bumper car racing.
At least Jeff Burton was a real race car driver.

It should be all about the driving and the skills rather than who is Joe Cool.
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Unfortunately people are drawn to personalities. Mike Trout is one of the best athletes in history but he’s blander than oatmeal so he’s largely unknown. If people were attracted to raw talents, NASCAR’s ratings decline wouldn’t have tracked with Jimmie Johnson’s reign of terror.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Unfortunately people are drawn to personalities. Mike Trout is one of the best athletes in history but he’s blander than oatmeal so he’s largely unknown. If people were attracted to raw talents, NASCAR’s ratings decline wouldn’t have tracked with Jimmie Johnson’s reign of terror.
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I can understand that but the talent should be the first prerequisite.

Dale was Ironhead, One tough customer (Wrangler), the man in black (Goodwrench) but none of that would have worked without him being a bad ass on the track.

But I think the bigger point is that Nascar attendance started declining before we lost some" personalities". Tony Stewart had the results and the personality he also was grass roots, but right sizing the bleachers was still a thing during his career.

He wasn't one of my favorites but he was hardcore talent with the personality and he still didnt save whatever some people think is missing from todays racing. There was also a lot of other big personalities during the rightsizing (downsizing) era.

I don't even think Dale Earmhardt would have spared up from the lack of personality crisis either. Nascar just isnt as big as it used to be due a cultural or generational change. We just lived through a Nascar bubble that has corrected itself.

The worse thing Nascar could do would be to dumb it down with more gimmicks or stunts. Just put on the best races and I do believe for the most part Nascar is doing the right things, and that they will be just for fine for many years and well past my lifetime.
 
Revman said:
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Tyler Reddick’s Supra Daily Driver

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These could be Oscar-worthy but I'm not going to fire up content that is obviously advertising. I'm not criticizing @Revman 's selections. My point is pieces scripted and produced by the sponsor, on the sponsor's web page, discussing vehicles you were given by the sponsor (and will abandon when you sign with someone else), may not be the best examples of how to show people you're interesting.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
These could be Oscar-worthy but I'm not going to fire up content that is obviously advertising. I'm not criticizing @Revman 's selections. My point is pieces scripted and produced by the sponsor, on the sponsor's web page, discussing vehicles you were given by the sponsor (and will abandon when you sign with someone else), may not be the best examples of how to show people you're interesting.
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Geez man. It's part of what is fun about the sport. The illusion. What part of this is real? These guys live in houses most of us can't even dream about, fly around the country in private jets, and generally live a life that is beyond our comprehension. Many around here want to paint a picture of a "grassroots" type of guy as their driver. ...a guy that would let you cut in line at the grocery store.....one poster said that it was enduring that Larson's wife wore cut offs when he won the Championship and saw that as a sign of being of the people (when those cut offs probably went for $300+). I'm cool with all of that....whatever works. I don't need this to be real....this is how you create personality in this sport.....create the......wait for it.....narrative. I like the narrative that MY guys drive MY cars.
 
I just want to watch a race, be entertained by the talent of these fellas doing something I wish I could do and know I couldn’t do, for 3 hours every Sunday. Nothing more, nothing less….respectfully this whole thread is a mountain out of a mole hill. How many more days till the Daytona 500 again?
 
Driver personality should be a distant 3rd on the list of reasons to watch racing. No amount of advertising is going to change how fans truly relate to a particular driver anyway. Should Joey Logano and Denny Hamlin's sponsors force them to make more public appearances? Probably, but at the end of the day their efforts probably wouldn't amount to much at least in the short to mid-term as far as benefit to the sport in general.

Only the most popular drivers make a difference here, and you can count them on one hand now.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I feel like people overstate the role of "car culture" in driving NASCAR fandom. I know the bare minimum about cars and I've been a lifelong fan. The average fan doesn't need to participate in their favorite sport in order to like it. It just has to be interesting.
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Of course one doesn't have to be a "car guy" to be into racing and vice versa but I do think that most people who like watching fast cars on track also like fast road cars.
And as long as manufacturers are involved, what's happening in the car industry remains relevant for the sport.
 
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