NASCAR’s personality problem

2 Sweet said:
I recently said this in another thread, and I think some of it might apply here......
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They’ve addressed a couple of these this year; the Netflix doc debuts around the D500 and iRacing picking up the console rights should lead to the best NASCAR video game in years come 2025.

I haven’t bought diecasts in years, mostly because, from what I can tell, Lionel overprices them to hell, production process now means you won’t get it until next season anyways, and a lot of the time they don’t even produce unique schemes if they don’t get however many preorders.

Spotter Brett made a point this week that fans have had a lot of experiential events taken away in the last couple of decades. No more Winston Cup Preview or Daytona Preseason Thunder. Even the more basic stuff like sponsor appearances disappeared during COVID and largely haven’t come back.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Indy and IMSA are what I signed up for. I spent more than $6 today for two Pepsis and two slices of gas station pizza.
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I have spent and continue to gladly spend 150 with Flo every year and I hope and pray they don't get bought out by one of the big gatekeeper jackasses, and that they stay on their side of the fence and continue to lose billions in streaming and don't pass that on to the customers. 6 bucks a pop and losing their asses is just fine with me, I hope they keep it up.
 
StandOnIt said:
I have spent and continue to gladly spend 150 with Flo every year and I hope and pray they don't get bought out by one of the big gatekeeper jackasses, and that they stay on their side of the fence and continue to lose billions in streaming and don't pass that on to the customers. 6 bucks a pop and losing their asses is just fine with me, I hope they keep it up.
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If I could prepay for 10 years of uninterrupted service and access to the library for $1500 I would do it tomorrow. I've spent every night this week watching features from this past season of the All Stars and started taking notes. I'm hoping by February I've churned through all of those and the IRA and NARC races. Meanwhile, the main TV in the household doesn't even have an antenna hooked up to it.
 
FLRacingFan said:
They’ve addressed a couple of these this year; the Netflix doc debuts around the D500 and iRacing picking up the console rights should lead to the best NASCAR video game in years come 2025.

I haven’t bought diecasts in years, mostly because, from what I can tell, Lionel overprices them to hell, production process now means you won’t get it until next season anyways, and a lot of the time they don’t even produce unique schemes if they don’t get however many preorders.

Spotter Brett made a point this week that fans have had a lot of experiential events taken away in the last couple of decades. No more Winston Cup Preview or Daytona Preseason Thunder. Even the more basic stuff like sponsor appearances disappeared during COVID and largely haven’t come back.
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There is actually a narrative out there being pushed by F1 fans and NASCAR media types who weren’t even around back then that NASCAR was never a great fan experience.

I saw this being floated around when people complained about the lack of fan access to F1 and fans talking about how they never even saw their favorite driver with their own eyes during pre-race. F1 journalist Alanis King implied on Twitter that NASCAR was that way when she first became a fan and a lot of people agreed.

It just seems like revisionist history and goes completely contrary to my experiences growing up and attending races in the 90s and 2000s. I've shared the horror stories that helped lead to the decline and that might have been around the time Alanis became a fan, not really sure. But going to races, growing up, was a whole different experience. Whether it was Miami, Richmond or Dover, every experience was unforgettable. And the access was unprecedented.

I'll never forget Tony Stewart signing autographs for over three hours and telling his reps he wasn't leaving until every single person in line got to meet him.

Another cool thing that used to happen that I don't see ever happening with the RTA's model was mid-week sponsorship appearances. On their way to Dover, drivers would make sponsorship appearances in Waldorf and take a show car there, or unload their actual racecar, and fire it up and stuff. I remember Rusty Wallace and Darrell Waltrip making stops at Western Auto in Ft. Myers and Naples growing up.

You want to get kids interested? Put a car out there to show off, let them sit in it, fire it up, let them see how badass these cars are. Then let them meet the driver.

There was a time when every woman in America wanted to take Kasey Kahne home. 😅

Imagine how many little boys you'd get hooked on racing if you took Hailie Deegan to some sponsorship event with her Xfinity car. 🤷‍♂️
 
Not enough storylines, not much playoff drama besides Bubba Wallace getting in, nothing but occasional Ross Chastain, Kyle Larson, Denny Hamlin storylines and a few others in 2023.

Only noteworthy off track rivalry was Chastain/Gragson at Kansas.
 
Also, everyone should go watch NASCAR 3D: THE IMAX EXPERIENCE on YouTube since it has somehow survived the WB Discovery purge.

It’s really need to go back and watch since it showed how cool the sport was at the time.
 
Tell you what....if NASCAR ever goes this way.....I am out....

 
AndyMarquisLive said:
You want to get kids interested? Put a car out there to show off, let them sit in it, fire it up, let them see how badass these cars are. Then let them meet the driver.
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Thank you! Spot ****** on!.....and maybe send them home with a diecast!
 
Revman said:
Tell you what....if NASCAR ever goes this way.....I am out....

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If Nascar would just go to total solar engines it would take care of the racing in the rain problems.
More sun = more power
Rain or Cloudy & less sun = Less power slower pace to match reduced traction.
 
Greg said:
If Nascar would just go to total solar engines it would take care of the racing in the rain problems.
More sun = more power
Rain or Cloudy & less sun = Less power slower pace to match reduced traction.
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This is ****** brilliant!
 
donthaveanickname said:
Can you seriously fault us for that? Look at the crap the car manufacturers put out, no surprise we're not interested.
No kid thinks "if I always do my homework maybe I can once buy a Kadjar." (Jeremy Clarkson)
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There is so much that OEMs could do to cultivate that instead of bitching about how it's not there anymore. The trackside activation is decent, but dealers need to get onboard.....Racing is an expression of the brand. We don't need a "what you see on the track, you can get at the dealer" type of thing. We need a mentality that if you buy an entry level car, you now belong to something.....and here's a couple of Hot Passes to show just what you signed up for. We screw any hope of revitalizing a car culture when a kid buys in, and gets the "you can't go there" treatment at the track because that is reserved for the sparkly jeans crowd. It makes me want to scream that we blame the lack of a car culture for small crowds, but do very little to use the sport to get it back. Dumb.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I feel like people overstate the role of "car culture" in driving NASCAR fandom. I know the bare minimum about cars and I've been a lifelong fan. The average fan doesn't need to participate in their favorite sport in order to like it. It just has to be interesting.
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I don't think car culture has anything to do with actual participation....it has to do with an appreciation and passion for cars. NASCAR does very little to celebrate the cars IMO. I don't know **** about cars, but I am absolutely fascinated by them.
 
donthaveanickname said:
Can you seriously fault us for that? Look at the crap the car manufacturers put out, no surprise we're not interested.
No kid thinks "if I always do my homework maybe I can once buy a Kadjar." (Jeremy Clarkson)
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Eh, wanted a Camaro SS in 2002 at age 16 and now want a ZL1 at age 39. I can’t sympathize with your statement, I’d give my left arm for a 1987 Buick Grand National or 89 Turbo Trans Am, those cars are still out there. I think car culture is what one makes of it
 
The Nature Boy said:
I feel like people overstate the role of "car culture" in driving NASCAR fandom. I know the bare minimum about cars and I've been a lifelong fan. The average fan doesn't need to participate in their favorite sport in order to like it. It just has to be interesting.
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I think the speed aspect of it is a hook that at least grabbed me as a young person
 
The Nature Boy said:
Exactly

The appeal to me is (to paraphrase Ken Squier), ordinary men doing extraordinary things.
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AndyMarquisLive hits on half of my issue with modern "big car" racing as a whole (NASCAR, Indycar, and F1 all qualify as this IMO) in that the speed isn't what it was in part because they've intentionally nerfed the engines. The other half is that they aren't ordinary men anymore. All too often, they are essentially rich boys who's progression is less due to talent and more due to access to mom and dad's pocketbook. I'm not like a monster Ross Chastain fan, but clearly his narrative of how he arrived in a competitive Cup car is very different from a lot of his peers in terms of experience levels. I can actually respect that; OTOH what is there to cheer when it comes to Tanner and Taylor Gray? How attractive their mom is?
 
virtualbalboa said:
AndyMarquisLive hits on half of my issue with modern "big car" racing as a whole (NASCAR, Indycar, and F1 all qualify as this IMO) in that the speed isn't what it was in part because they've intentionally nerfed the engines. The other half is that they aren't ordinary men anymore. All too often, they are essentially rich boys who's progression is less due to talent and more due to access to mom and dad's pocketbook. I'm not like a monster Ross Chastain fan, but clearly his narrative of how he arrived in a competitive Cup car is very different from a lot of his peers in terms of experience levels. I can actually respect that; OTOH what is there to cheer when it comes to Tanner and Taylor Gray? How attractive their mom is?
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I am OEM based so I don't really care about how they got there....Honestly, most--probably all--grew up with 10X more than I did, and I grew up very middle class, and had a great childhood.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Eh, wanted a Camaro SS in 2002 at age 16 and now want a ZL1 at age 39. I can’t sympathize with your statement, I’d give my left arm for a 1987 Buick Grand National or 89 Turbo Trans Am, those cars are still out there. I think car culture is what one makes of it
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I respect this. Me? Give me a 1977 Celica with a 2JZ-GTE swap. Hard "No!" on the BMW.....although I love the body.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Jeff Gordon vs. Dale Earnhardt is an all-time great sports rivalry that I'm honestly surprised hasn't been the subject of theatrical movies yet. Although, in a way, Days of Thunder was something of a precursor to that.

It's going to be very hard to recapture the magic that rivalry had. But it does not help when rivalries are squashed quickly by NASCAR's brass and by Rick Hendrick.
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Isn't it eerie just how well Days of Thunder predicted that? Especially when you consider the team Trickle drove for was based on HMS and Cole Trickle had a background in open wheels just like Jeff Gordon and he took the sport by storm and stood up to Rowdy Burns who was based on Dale Earnhardt.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Isn't it eerie just how well Days of Thunder predicted that? Especially when you consider the team Trickle drove for was based on HMS and Cole Trickle had a background in open wheels just like Jeff Gordon and he took the sport by storm and stood up to Rowdy Burns who was based on Dale Earnhardt.
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Cole Trickle was based on Tim Richmond.

I just watched that movie for the 145th time over the weekend.
 
The Nature Boy said:
There’s an alternate reality where Jeff Gordon, Terry Labonte, and Tim Richmond are team mates at HMS.

That would have been some scary ****.
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Yep.

I also wonder what happens in the alternative reality where Davey Allison and Alan Kulwicki don't die in 1993.

The other part about the 90s is all the drivers who decided to become owner/drivers and wasted some of their best years. Darrell Waltrip and BIll Elliott could've won several more races had they not gone on those expeditions. Ricky Rudd and Geoff Bodine won races, but never contended for a championship. And Rudd was good enough to win a championship.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Yep.

I also wonder what happens in the alternative reality where Davey Allison and Alan Kulwicki don't die in 1993.

The other part about the 90s is all the drivers who decided to become owner/drivers and wasted some of their best years. Darrell Waltrip and BIll Elliott could've won several more races had they not gone on those expeditions. Ricky Rudd and Geoff Bodine won races, but never contended for a championship. And Rudd was good enough to win a championship.
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Allison and Gordon would be an all time rivalry. Allison could’ve gone toe to toe with Gordon in the late 90s, Dale couldn’t because of injuries so I think it’s even hotter than Dale’s rivalry with Jeff.

Given that Ernie Irvan could have won the 1994 championship in Davey’s car, I think Davey wins it in 1994 and possibly edges out Labonte and Gordon in 1996. I think he also grabs 1999 (and maybe 2000). I think there’s a real chance that 1994-2001 is just Davey and Gordon going back and forth winning championships.

Kulwicki ultimately fades into a midpack driver with maybe a win per season as the established teams pull ahead. Whether he contends for a championship again depends on whether he sells out to Roush. Rudd and Waltrip were better drivers and we saw how they did as owner drivers.
 
The Nature Boy said:
As an aside, one of NASCAR’s problems is that there are too many Cole Trickles and not enough Rowdy Burns.
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There are no real Rowdy Burnses and there are all Cole Trickles. That is absolutely a major issue IMO especially given NASCAR's public image, and there's no desire to change that. In fact, the problem is getting to be that trying to lure away grown man racing drivers who are successful elsewhere is becoming increasingly difficult. If this were 2003 and not 2023, Corey Day, Buddy Kofoid, Tanner Thorson, Cannon McIntosh, Ricky Thornton Jr., Brandon Sheppard, Bobby Pierce, Nick Hoffman: they'd all be getting seat time in pavement stock cars or at minimum a lot more of it than they get. None of these are old men I'm listing; Corey Day is in high school. But there's sufficient money to be made racing dirt now that trying to wrangle up millions to buy a ride in the Trucks simply doesn't make any sense.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Kulwicki ultimately fades into a midpack driver with maybe a win per season as the established teams pull ahead. Whether he contends for a championship again depends on whether he sells out to Roush. Rudd and Waltrip were better drivers and we saw how they did as owner drivers.
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I don't like to fantasize about how dead men might have lived their lives, but Kulwicki transitioning to team ownership/team principal role feels like an obvious and inevitable transition for him.
 
virtualbalboa said:
But there's sufficient money to be made racing dirt now that trying to wrangle up millions to buy a ride in the Trucks simply doesn't make any sense.
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I've posted before about how much I hate that dirt has gotten such a following that even NASCAR and its drivers are boosting it while lower-tier pavement racing (including the Truck Series) is dying. If you want to get talented stock car drivers, you need a well funded and supported grassroots. The problem today is that you can't get a ride at even the lowest level without money. We need Cup Series drivers going to the local short track and running races to boost attendance in order to bring in more money, not hopping in a sprint car and boosting an entirely different discipline.

The grassroots of stock car racing is incredibly being filled with trust fund babies and I think we're seeing that reflected in the talent levels (or lack thereof) in the Truck Series. It's only a matter of time before that crap gets to Cup.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You may be able to tell the diff between 190 and 170 just by looking, but I don't think most potential new fans can. 170 is still twice what most of us routinely do.
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When NASCAR went full tilt towards low power and high downforce with the 550 package, it was much faster than what I do on the freeway but it was also clear when guys weren't breaking loose ever that this wasn't exactly ragged edge stuff. Nor should it have been expected when people are being told flat out by the sanctioning body that the cars are being intentionally slowed down to produce pack racing because you want to see slower cars racing in traffic.
 
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