Penske buys IMS, Indy Car

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
43,725
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
I agree in that I am of the theory that since the Indy 500 is your biggest race and most widely watched it hurts the series when your biggest teams and star drivers miss the race. It may not have hurt in 1979 but it sure as hell hurts now in 2019. Add in the fact that you really dont have 50 cars or teams showing up anymore to get in the field and I am fine with guaranteeing full time teams, I want to see the best and brightest go at it. I dont care about some small funded team knocking out Hinchcliff like what happened to him in 17, its stupid and counter productive. I bet you couldnt even name what team and driver it was that made it instead of Hinch that year or Alonso this year. In fact I was bummed Alonso missed it this year, its a treat to watch that guy race. I'd carve out a block of time to watch him race a big wheel if he did that.
Yep it ain't 20 years or more ago, probably one or two teams could weather not running the 500, but it would cripple the rest for the whole year as it stands now. It's more of a survival move than anything. Hopefully it will get better. I didn't hear anybody asking Penske if they were going to have 200 more horsepower in their cars soon. Things are getting good, I hope Penske stays healthy, it's the best thing that has happened to IndyCar in years and years IMO.
 

LewTheShoe

Team Owner
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
3,799
Points
493
In a practical sense it is a non-issue. In a philosophical sense, Roger is dead wrong and he should know better.
An anachronism on a high horse... it's not a pretty sight..:dual9mm:

Social media warriors love to spend OPM, especially that of team owners. They often seem to think there is an unlimited supply of 'em... every time one loses sponsorship and turns off the lights, there will be two new ones jumping in ready and able to show up every week to permit an actual race to happen. Yeah, sure there will... LOL.
 

nickp

Team Owner
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
196
Points
123
IndyCar needs better marketing and marketing of its drivers and more exposure to recapture more and more fans
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,430
Points
343
I agree in that I am of the theory that since the Indy 500 is your biggest race and most widely watched it hurts the series when your biggest teams and star drivers miss the race. It may not have hurt in 1979 but it sure as hell hurts now in 2019. Add in the fact that you really dont have 50 cars or teams showing up anymore to get in the field and I am fine with guaranteeing full time teams, I want to see the best and brightest go at it. I dont care about some small funded team knocking out Hinchcliff like what happened to him in 17, its stupid and counter productive. I bet you couldnt even name what team and driver it was that made it instead of Hinch that year or Alonso this year. In fact I was bummed Alonso missed it this year, its a treat to watch that guy race. I'd carve out a block of time to watch him race a big wheel if he did that.
Alonzo missed the race this year because McLaren was stupid and arrogant and they got taught a valuable lesson. It will serve them well in the future. As I said, if the full time teams were that damn concerned about their full time cars missing the race, they would stop fielding all the extra entries. THOSE are the real threat, not the teams that only run Indy. And I'm sorry, but the highest levels of motorsport shouldn't be about charity and institutional mediocrity. That's one of the primary reason so many of the stick and ball franchises can suck for decades on end. It's a closed society, and there is nobody there to force out the slackers. Either get the job done or sit at home and watch somebody else take your place.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
43,725
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Alonzo missed the race this year because McLaren was stupid and arrogant and they got taught a valuable lesson. It will serve them well in the future. As I said, if the full time teams were that damn concerned about their full time cars missing the race, they would stop fielding all the extra entries. THOSE are the real threat, not the teams that only run Indy. And I'm sorry, but the highest levels of motorsport shouldn't be about charity and institutional mediocrity. That's one of the primary reason so many of the stick and ball franchises can suck for decades on end. It's a closed society, and there is nobody there to force out the slackers. Either get the job done or sit at home and watch somebody else take your place.
I can tell you know very little about economics or business. And coming from a fans standpoint using emotion over intellect it makes sense. Thank goodness for guys like Penske who knows how important it is to keep the gang together so to speak. The revitalization of the Wood brothers, oh that tradition word pops up again. waffle waffle. I doubt that Penske will change his spots over on the Indy side.
 

Snappy D

2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
8,383
Points
693
Alonzo missed the race this year because McLaren was stupid and arrogant and they got taught a valuable lesson. It will serve them well in the future. As I said, if the full time teams were that damn concerned about their full time cars missing the race, they would stop fielding all the extra entries. THOSE are the real threat, not the teams that only run Indy. And I'm sorry, but the highest levels of motorsport shouldn't be about charity and institutional mediocrity. That's one of the primary reason so many of the stick and ball franchises can suck for decades on end. It's a closed society, and there is nobody there to force out the slackers. Either get the job done or sit at home and watch somebody else take your place.
I never said McLaren wasn’t any of those things...their month of May was bungling to say the least. I counter that you’re wrong in that it will serve them well in the future because who cares about next year’s race when one of the biggest stars in Motorsports missed it this year? That’s just not good business, Alonso moves the needle all over the world so many extra sets of eyes and exposure to your series if he races in this one race. Am I saying he should have gotten in on charity of course not, but to shrug it off if he were a full time car and say oh well he missed the race well that’s just not very good. I never found the smaller teams knocking out star teams and drivers compelling I found it odd because was more concerned why star team x didn’t make it but one off team y did.
 

gnomesayin

Team Owner
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
6,734
Points
793
Alonzo missed the race this year because McLaren was stupid and arrogant and they got taught a valuable lesson. It will serve them well in the future. As I said, if the full time teams were that damn concerned about their full time cars missing the race, they would stop fielding all the extra entries. THOSE are the real threat, not the teams that only run Indy. And I'm sorry, but the highest levels of motorsport shouldn't be about charity and institutional mediocrity. That's one of the primary reason so many of the stick and ball franchises can suck for decades on end. It's a closed society, and there is nobody there to force out the slackers. Either get the job done or sit at home and watch somebody else take your place.
I see nothing in this post that betrays a lack of basic business or economic knowledge, nor nothing in the disrespectful response that indicates greater understanding. Simply different perspectives and priorities.

Protecting the established clan via guaranteed entries has positive and negative effects. The Indy 500 became the most prestigious race on the planet using open qualification without any guaranteed spots. The many different sanctions and series that have taken part in the Indy 500 have always been and always will be secondary to that event. The IRL briefly locked in their teams as part of The Split, and it was...not well received. Not a good "business decision". While times have changed and there are different factors in play, there is no guarantee that locking in full-time IndyCar teams will benefit the race or the series long-term.

My personal preference as a compromise would be 2-3 series provisionals at the back of the grid, whether it be spots 31-33 or an added 34-36. If that were the case, mediocre IndyCar teams wouldn't enter the month of May locked in with no real stakes. If nothing else, the illusion of meaningful bumping would be preserved, but it would be nearly impossible for an elite team to miss. I would think Penske / Andretti / Ganassi would be all over that.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
43,725
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
I see nothing in this post that betrays a lack of basic business or economic knowledge, nor nothing in the disrespectful response that indicates greater understanding. Simply different perspectives and priorities.

Protecting the established clan via guaranteed entries has positive and negative effects. The Indy 500 became the most prestigious race on the planet using open qualification without any guaranteed spots. The many different sanctions and series that have taken part in the Indy 500 have always been and always will be secondary to that event. The IRL briefly locked in their teams as part of The Split, and it was...not well received. Not a good "business decision". While times have changed and there are different factors in play, there is no guarantee that locking in full-time IndyCar teams will benefit the race or the series long-term.

My personal preference as a compromise would be 2-3 series provisionals at the back of the grid, whether it be spots 31-33 or an added 34-36. If that were the case, mediocre IndyCar teams wouldn't enter the month of May locked in with no real stakes. If nothing else, the illusion of meaningful bumping would be preserved, but it would be nearly impossible for an elite team to miss. I would think Penske / Andretti / Ganassi would be all over that.

That's puzzling, I have read all of your car counting comments over in the WoO thread bemoaning the small car counts when they occur so now because it is Indycars that changes? Personally in IndyCar I think it is a rare occurrence when an established team blows it and is out of the grid at the 500, but at present, not 20 years ago, they need every full time car they can get for the rest of the year. Roger Penske says it costs about 3 million to field an Indycar, and that would hardly pay the tire bill, and transportation costs in Nascar, and IndyCar struggles with car counts.
 

gnomesayin

Team Owner
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
6,734
Points
793
That's puzzling, I have read all of your car counting comments over in the WoO thread bemoaning the small car counts when they occur so now because it is Indycars that changes?
You'll have to make more sense of that if you're hoping for it to land. You're not reading closely enough, nor accounting for all of the times I enthusiastically post about high car counts. If we're going to jump to WoO, nobody is ever locked into the Knoxville Nationals or Kings Royal, and it would be an interesting claim to suggest that changing that would improve them.

I actually attend WoO races and pay to watch their content, so I think I'll shake off your 'complainer' label pretty easily. I make genuine observations, positive and negative, about everything I watch and care about. You'd do better to stop insulting everyone with a different view.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,430
Points
343
Two things. First, I don't see any evidence that missing the 500 has actually hurt any teams long term, and second, if you are interested in bringing in new owners and more cars, I don't see how making it even more impossible to make the fields for big races helps the cause any.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
43,725
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Two things. First, I don't see any evidence that missing the 500 has actually hurt any teams long term, and second, if you are interested in bringing in new owners and more cars, I don't see how making it even more impossible to make the fields for big races helps the cause any.
There is all kinds of evidence to the contrary. Ever wonder why this is being discussed in the first place?
 

gnomesayin

Team Owner
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Messages
6,734
Points
793
if you are interested in bringing in new owners and more cars, I don't see how making it even more impossible to make the fields for big races helps the cause any.
Well, it's doubtful that Penske / Ganassi / Andretti are itching to add new major competitors to the mix anytime soon. They seem relatively happy with their lower cost business models over there, but they want to be able to guarantee sponsors that there is 0% chance they won't be on the track for the race that garners more exposure than all others combined. That's understandable. In any racing series or organization, the dominant players are always going to throw their weight around and argue in their own interest.

The larger question for those not directly involved who want the best for the event should be what most benefits the event itself. That is less obvious, and anyone who acts like these are easy matters to resolve is being naive.
 

bigspud

Team Owner
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
479
Points
123
for nascar,
just bring back the 10 lap tires,
and lengthen it to 500 miles.
 

superchuck500

Team Owner
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
366
Points
173
Location
Charleston, SC
No, the Brickyard road course is a joke. If F1, sports cars and Indy cars can't put on a good show there, what makes you think NASCA could?
I don't think we have to presume Roger Penske is going to stay within the existing structures at the track. If Jim France was on-board, the capital expenditure to either re-tool the Indy road course or install a roval configuration could be offset pretty quickly by the added revenue.

People clamor for more road courses. The CMS roval has been pretty well received. They're not going to run the Indy 500 and the BY 400 on the same weekend, so if there's opportunity for a double-feature, I think you have to look outside the box of what's currently there at the facility. I don't know that a second weekend is in the cards for either series to just run the oval again.

To me it all points to running some kind of road-included configuration.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,430
Points
343
There is all kinds of evidence to the contrary. Ever wonder why this is being discussed in the first place?
Please explain to me who are all of these full time teams that have missed the 500 with one of their primary cars and what long term harm was done to them? It doesn't seem to have scared off McLaren, ( who was a one of those dastardly one off interlopers anyway) they're coming back with a full effort.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
43,725
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Please explain to me who are all of these full time teams that have missed the 500 with one of their primary cars and what long term harm was done to them? It doesn't seem to have scared off McLaren, ( who was a one of those dastardly one off interlopers anyway) they're coming back with a full effort.
I'll let you work that out yourself. Saying the same thing over and over from my standpoint is a waste of time. Below is a link from the CEO of the Indy series saying the same thing and answering/dodging pointed questions about the topic.

IndyCar CEO Mark Miles addresses guaranteed entries at Indy 500


https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/motor/2019/04/18/indycar-ceo-mark-miles-addresses-guaranteed-entries-indy-500/3507127002/

 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,430
Points
343
Roger should add lights to the place and run the Brickyard at Night.
And how would that help anything? First off, it would be HUGELY expensive, second, don't forget that the Brickyard is a residential neighborhood, and I defy anyone to show me the evidence that night races are better attended (or watched) than day races.
 

AuzGrams

Team Owner
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
3,443
Points
343
And how would that help anything? First off, it would be HUGELY expensive, second, don't forget that the Brickyard is a residential neighborhood, and I defy anyone to show me the evidence that night races are better attended (or watched) than day races.
It would help the Brickyard race a lot actually, which has the issue of heat big time whether it's in July, August, or September race. Also Roger hinted at a 24 hour race. I wouldn't mind seeing that whether its IMSA or World Challenge America.
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
21,955
Points
883
There are currently 22 - 24 cars showing up to race everywhere except Indianapolis.

Room for 10 or so. I think I'll panic later.
 

Charlie Spencer

Short tracks and road courses.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
21,153
Points
883
Location
Lexington, SC
It would help the Brickyard race a lot actually, which has the issue of heat big time whether it's in July, August, or September race.
Plenty of other tracks run races during the day in those months. What do you think would be helped by moving the race to the night?
 

Snappy D

2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
8,383
Points
693
Please explain to me who are all of these full time teams that have missed the 500 with one of their primary cars and what long term harm was done to them? It doesn't seem to have scared off McLaren, ( who was a one of those dastardly one off interlopers anyway) they're coming back with a full effort.
Hinch just missed it I believe in 17, he was full time for SPM. That was pretty huge and for the wrong reasons, one of the biggest stars in the series in this country and Canada as well as one of the biggest stars with a personal services agreement with an OEM missed the race, I dont care how you look at it that couldnt have been good for business
 

Snappy D

2017 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
8,383
Points
693
It would help the Brickyard race a lot actually, which has the issue of heat big time whether it's in July, August, or September race. Also Roger hinted at a 24 hour race. I wouldn't mind seeing that whether its IMSA or World Challenge America.
Im most excited for the 24 hour race, if an off weekend can be found for Indy Car and NASCAR, I would hope some of the series stars would find their way to that race. NASCAR is off two weeks next August!
 

AuzGrams

Team Owner
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
3,443
Points
343
Plenty of other tracks run races during the day in those months. What do you think would be helped by moving the race to the night?
Improved Attendance & Optics? Other tracks such as Loudon, Watkins Glen don't have the swath of seating that IMS does. Much of the reason people like Indy is the energy and aura of the facility.

Hell run it on a Sunday Night if people are insistent that Saturday Night ratings suck.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
3,430
Points
343
Hinch just missed it I believe in 17, he was full time for SPM. That was pretty huge and for the wrong reasons, one of the biggest stars in the series in this country and Canada as well as one of the biggest stars with a personal services agreement with an OEM missed the race, I dont care how you look at it that couldnt have been good for business
I would suggest they should have thought about that before they showed up and put out such a crappy effort. With the way the deck is stacked, you almost have to go out of your way to miss this race.
I'll let you work that out yourself. Saying the same thing over and over from my standpoint is a waste of time. Below is a link from the CEO of the Indy series saying the same thing and answering/dodging pointed questions about the topic.

IndyCar CEO Mark Miles addresses guaranteed entries at Indy 500


https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/motor/2019/04/18/indycar-ceo-mark-miles-addresses-guaranteed-entries-indy-500/3507127002/
Since Hinchcliffe was brought up, it was 2018 he missed, and if you look at the entry list, you will see Andretti fielding SIX cars, Penske with four, Coyne, Schmidt-Peterson and Foyt with three entries each, and then ANY of these teams want you to feel sorry for them if one of them misses the race? On what planet? Just a bunch of spoiled brats who want to keep their little playground to themselves and not have to suffer the consequences of their own actions.
 

Charlie Spencer

Short tracks and road courses.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
21,153
Points
883
Location
Lexington, SC
Improved Attendance & Optics?
Maybe it's just me but the temperature at a track, hot or cold, has never prevented me from going. I won't go to most night races any more because it's become too long a day for me, and often requires an extra night in a hotel. Again, just me.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'optics'. The sight lines aren't going to be any better night vs. day. The infield buildings will still be there. The inability to see is what's kept me personally from returning to IMS, far more than the weather. Moving the race to night won't fix that.
 
Top Bottom