Penske vs. Hendrick

FenderBumper said:
The 48 used to be the master of getting the rear of the car to drop the splitter out of the air on the straight, and pop back up under braking. The zero ride height seems to have taken that away, and maybe they are leaning on tire pressures too much.
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Yeah, I think that 0 Ride Height obliterated that, but I wonder if it's coming back in a way. Makar was talking about teams lifting the splitter in their tuning trends. JGR has been fairly quick all year in short runs. They have some poles, but were getting annihilated in the race. Here's my thought.....They started slammed, and as the fuel burned, the car lifted, and totally screwed an already tempermental aero platform. The adjustment was to manage that "lift" better. Penske has nailed that in the short and long runs, but they are probably more vulnerable in the short runs. Dallenbach made the point on one of the TNT broadcasts that horsepower can compensate for some of the aero deficiencies. Again, I cannot wait to see what happens when we get the Penskes turning the corner at Indy, and the Hendrick boys hauling ass down the straights. With the recent progress, not sure where my TRD Toyotas will be. There is confidence in our camp which gives me hope, but this has notoriously been a difficult place for Toyota.

As for the tires.......It was my understanding that originally the 0 Ride Height was going to put the suspension back into the suspension instead of shocks and springs only there to create an aero platform. When the suspension serves only this purpose the tire becomes a tunable suspension member. It was not designed for that. I do believe that Penske and Hendrick have been extremely aggressive with pressures while the TRD Toyotas have been very conservative. I think that the Penskes and Hendricks have backed off--they found the line. The TRD Toyotas have been very, very, very reluctant to mess with the pressures. Interesting and a part of the sport I really enjoy.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
3% is a giant figure when it comes to how miniscule the differences in these cars really are.

It doesnt take more than a few HP to notice over 500 miles.

Most of the speed in these cars is in the corners and comes from the setup, as you noted in reference to Brad vs Gordon at Loudon.. 2-3 hp plus a better setup can easily make a car seem to have 20-30 more hp... but its just not feasible.

Think about it like this.... why would NASCAR be going through this whole horse power reduction thing for 2015 (75-100hp) If teams could be in a position to have an advantage of nearly half that already?

I dont disagree Hendrick may have more horsepower... but Penske still dominating the mile and a half tracks, and now the flat tracks as well, maybe the finishes dont show it but its clear as day throughout the races..... Setup is everything. The speed comes from when/how you get off the gas and/or on the brakes in to the turns and how your car reacts when you get back into the gas. If Hendrick has that much of a HP advantage then they are behind the ball in terms of setup.
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So, was it 2-3 hp = 1/10 that I heard? Probably could do the math, but I don't want to.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, I think that 0 Ride Height obliterated that, but I wonder if it's coming back in a way. Makar was talking about teams lifting the splitter in their tuning trends. JGR has been fairly quick all year in short runs. They have some poles, but were getting annihilated in the race. Here's my thought.....They started slammed, and as the fuel burned, the car lifted, and totally screwed an already tempermental aero platform. The adjustment was to manage that "lift" better. Penske has nailed that in the short and long runs, but they are probably more vulnerable in the short runs. Dallenbach made the point on one of the TNT broadcasts that horsepower can compensate for some of the aero deficiencies. Again, I cannot wait to see what happens when we get the Penskes turning the corner at Indy, and the Hendrick boys hauling ass down the straights. With the recent progress, not sure where my TRD Toyotas will be. There is confidence in our camp which gives me hope, but this has notoriously been a difficult place for Toyota.

As for the tires.......It was my understanding that originally the 0 Ride Height was going to put the suspension back into the suspension instead of shocks and springs only there to create an aero platform. When the suspension serves only this purpose the tire becomes a tunable suspension member. It was not designed for that. I do believe that Penske and Hendrick have been extremely aggressive with pressures while the TRD Toyotas have been very conservative. I think that the Penskes and Hendricks have backed off--they found the line. The TRD Toyotas have been very, very, very reluctant to mess with the pressures. Interesting and a part of the sport I really enjoy.
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Real interesting stuff. Thanks.
I too am wondering which will rule Indy, handling or HP. Kez is usually fast there, but after watching NH, it may take some tire strategy to beat HMS. Penske seems to run well on older rubber. We may see a fast car on older tires bolt out to a big lead on a restart, only to get passed 10 laps later.

Toyota just seems to be lost right now, and it's mostly setup. They used to rule short tracks, with their black smoke braking, but even that seems to be gone. Interesting that Kyle seemed faster as his fuel ran low. Ass went up and handling got better? WG is my most anticipated race. Kyle, Kez and Marcos have put on great shows there the past 3 years. With 3 2nd place finishes, Kez has to be real hungry. I doubt Kyle gets away with any blocking of the #2 this year, and Marcos might be lurking when the argument starts. Could get interesting.
 
FenderBumper said:
Real interesting stuff. Thanks.
I too am wondering which will rule Indy, handling or HP. Kez is usually fast there, but after watching NH, it may take some tire strategy to beat HMS. Penske seems to run well on older rubber. We may see a fast car on older tires bolt out to a big lead on a restart, only to get passed 10 laps later.

Toyota just seems to be lost right now, and it's mostly setup. They used to rule short tracks, with their black smoke braking, but even that seems to be gone. Interesting that Kyle seemed faster as his fuel ran low. Ass went up and handling got better? WG is my most anticipated race. Kyle, Kez and Marcos have put on great shows there the past 3 years. With 3 2nd place finishes, Kez has to be real hungry. I doubt Kyle gets away with any blocking of the #2 this year, and Marcos might be lurking when the argument starts. Could get interesting.
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Forgot about that funky Toyota smoke on the short tracks. Toyota started very lost, and is finding itself. I am pleasantly surprised that they are turning a corner. Getting caught up in this sport is damn near impossible. Right now, I feel that Indy is all Hendrick. However, I do know that Toyota has some stuff coming, so who the hell knows, maybe my boys will shock the world. Looking for the Penskes to be in the Top 5. Can't wait. WG will be cool. Kyle loves that place. Gonna be a battle. Don't think that Brad will rough anybody up--his **** is way too good to mess with any crap heading into the Chase.
 
FenderBumper said:
It doesn't work like that.



Not sure what you mean to say. I'll assume you meant that "Most of the speed DIFFERENCE..". If so, that is usually the case.






Watch the video closely. Brad, with the better setup, kills Jeff thru the turn, then Jeff blasts away on the straight. With the lower exit speeds at NH, only one thing explains that. HP, and lots of it. It was surprising to see Jeff get more than a car length away, after being slower in the turn, on such a short straight. He gave it all up in the turns, then moved away and prevented the 2 from getting inside on exit, which is why the pass took so many laps. With the dominant handling the 2 showed, and the talent behind the wheel, he should have blown right by Jeff.
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Yeah well obviously the difference lol...

Its not only more HP that can do that... if Jeff backed up the corner more, which he would have been because it wasn't handling as well through the centre... he can get in the gas sooner... Brad charges the corner, rotates and doesnt get as good of a run off but still pulls away bc at that track all the speed (difference) is in the turns.
 
Gordon_Fan24 said:
As Ric Flair always said "to be the man, you have to beat the man".......
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As a TRD Toyota fan whose teams are getting better but struggling, this is what keeps me engaged. I want to kick the asses of the best at their best. This is why I celebrate the successes of Penske and Hendrick. No excuses. Beat them at their best, or go home. I can take it either way. Not going anywhere.
 
You got here too late Rev. Toyota had the most wins in their history last season. I don't know what happened but this year it ain't looking good so far. Last year the Fords were weak, still are in the Roush camp. Penske pulled something out of the hat like he did with the Dodges. Long way to go though, so you never know.
 
Revman said:
Forgot about that funky Toyota smoke on the short tracks. Toyota started very lost, and is finding itself. I am pleasantly surprised that they are turning a corner. Getting caught up in this sport is damn near impossible. Right now, I feel that Indy is all Hendrick. However, I do know that Toyota has some stuff coming, so who the hell knows, maybe my boys will shock the world. Looking for the Penskes to be in the Top 5. Can't wait. WG will be cool. Kyle loves that place. Gonna be a battle. Don't think that Brad will rough anybody up--his **** is way too good to mess with any crap heading into the Chase.
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I was referring to how aggressively, and repeatedly, Kyle blocked him last year. I doubt he gets away with it this year. Brad has given up 2 WG wins getting knocked out of the way by Ambrose, and blocked like crazy by Kyle, who has wrecked him a few times in their careers.
 
StandOnIt said:
You got here too late Rev. Toyota had the most wins in their history last season. I don't know what happened but this year it ain't looking good so far. Last year the Fords were weak, still are in the Roush camp. Penske pulled something out of the hat like he did with the Dodges. Long way to go though, so you never know.
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I have to be honest with you man. We had a hell of a lot of speed, but the price we paid was way the hell too high. I'll take this year's reliability--and the struggle--over last year's feast or famine. Hated that ****. At the end of the day, we've got 4 in Chase position. Relative to last year--pretty much the same. I like how we got here more than last year. Just have to hope for that rabbit out of the hat come Chase time.
 
FenderBumper said:
I was referring to how aggressively, and repeatedly, Kyle blocked him last year. I doubt he gets away with it this year. Brad has given up 2 WG wins getting knocked out of the way by Ambrose, and blocked like crazy by Kyle, who has wrecked him a few times in their careers.
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No, I hear ya man, and Kyle has one coming, but I don't think Brad needs that ****--both in terms of drama and points/wins. I say he races him the same way this year given the same circumstances. Hard as hell, but not stupid.
 
Revman said:
No, I hear ya man, and Kyle has one coming, but I don't think Brad needs that ****--both in terms of drama and points/wins. I say he races him the same way this year given the same circumstances. Hard as hell, but not stupid.
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We'll see. They are both in the chase, but Brad has a championship in his pocket. Kyle has more to lose. Besides, Brad can just say he got tight and decided to drive thru it. :D
 
I haven't seen anything done to Keselowski which he himself hasn't done to another driver. He's no more the victim than he is the perpetrator.

Funny how we don't hear him crying about anyone cheating this year.
 
#17D500winner said:
I haven't seen anything done to Keselowski which he himself hasn't done to another driver. He's no more the victim than he is the perpetrator.

Funny how we don't hear him crying about anyone cheating this year.
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He got Nascar to fix all that, unfortunately they looked at his car too. Ouch
 
#17D500winner said:
I haven't seen anything done to Keselowski which he himself hasn't done to another driver. He's no more the victim than he is the perpetrator.

Funny how we don't hear him crying about anyone cheating this year.
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If you can't beat em, join em :)
 
It is going to be a great battle between the two organizations but Hendrick will take home the hardware after Homestead.
 
Maybe Im biased (maybe? lol) but I really don't think HMS has a huge HP advantage like everyone is is alluding to. Granted they definitely have an edge when it comes to the big tracks, keep in mind that most weeks there is at least one Penske car that beats at least half of HMS on track.

Clearly I'll always say Penske can get in there but I really am starting to believe it more and more every week. I think they have a trick or two up their sleeve come chase time.. also pretty sure they haven't used any of their tests yet. This is shaping up to be an epic showdown of the teams and manufacturers... Im seriously hope its 24, 48, 2, 22 at Homestead and we can see what theyre really made of.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Maybe Im biased (maybe? lol) but I really don't think HMS has a huge HP advantage like everyone is is alluding to. Granted they definitely have an edge when it comes to the big tracks, keep in mind that most weeks there is at least one Penske car that beats at least half of HMS on track.

Clearly I'll always say Penske can get in there but I really am starting to believe it more and more every week. I think they have a trick or two up their sleeve come chase time.. also pretty sure they haven't used any of their tests yet. This is shaping up to be an epic showdown of the teams and manufacturers... Im seriously hope its 24, 48, 2, 22 at Homestead and we can see what theyre really made of.
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Im calling the 48,24,88, & 22
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Im calling the 48,24,88, & 22
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I can see that, honestly at this point I see the 22, 2, 4, and 88 as interchangeable lol I'd bet at least 2 of them make it to the final 4 along with Jimmie and Jeff... This past weekend gives Joey an edge but there's lots of racing left. I would love to see your prediction come true... Joey vs Hendrick... imagine that... and he if takes it... phew... huge.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Maybe Im biased (maybe? lol) but I really don't think HMS has a huge HP advantage like everyone is is alluding to. Granted they definitely have an edge when it comes to the big tracks, keep in mind that most weeks there is at least one Penske car that beats at least half of HMS on track.

Clearly I'll always say Penske can get in there but I really am starting to believe it more and more every week. I think they have a trick or two up their sleeve come chase time.. also pretty sure they haven't used any of their tests yet. This is shaping up to be an epic showdown of the teams and manufacturers... Im seriously hope its 24, 48, 2, 22 at Homestead and we can see what theyre really made of.
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Of course I am holding out hope for a Toyota miracle. However, I want to see what happens in Atlanta before making any predictions. I am not sold that a Hendrick wins this. Leaning Penske barring a miracle. Regardless, Joey Logano has had an epic year. Dude is going to be a star for years to come.
 
Revman said:
Of course I am holding out hope for a Toyota miracle. However, I want to see what happens in Atlanta before making any predictions. I am not sold that a Hendrick wins this. Leaning Penske barring a miracle. Regardless, Joey Logano has had an epic year. Dude is going to be a star for years to come.
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rev....if toyo has magic rabbit in hat....they better pull it out afore it suffocates.
thought jgr / mwr might show more in '14 given matt's '13 yr. seems they got hp and set up problems tho. ?
plus grey matter w/ ...........................

but i'm pullin for toyo chase miracle ......ta make it a more exciting chase .... we'll see.
 
Revman said:
Of course I am holding out hope for a Toyota miracle. However, I want to see what happens in Atlanta before making any predictions. I am not sold that a Hendrick wins this. Leaning Penske barring a miracle. Regardless, Joey Logano has had an epic year. Dude is going to be a star for years to come.
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When I come out with my "I told you so" thread... It'll be directed at pretty much everyone except you lol
 
I think one of the best parts about the fact that Penske is doing so good is that they have half the team that these other big teams do and theyre equal if not better than most of them. I always have said I knew Joey would do great but even I didnt expect him to pull off a year like this right now. Did you know he has more DNF's than anyone else in the top 16 in points? and he's fourth... crazy. Im proud to be a Joey fan and the JGR years makes it that much sweeter. Im looking forward to cheering him on for the next 20-25 years.... He will be a champion. There really never was any doubt in my mind about that... Its now just a matter of when and how many? I love it.
 
Jimmie may win next week, also at Charlotte maybe though I have doubts he will win another race this year.

I'm pegging Gordon to win at Martinsville and some other race.
 
FenderBumper said:
Brad didn't win with horsepower. That was painfully obvious when he was racing the 24 and 42. He was beating them into, thru, and out of the corners, yet they pulled away and got it all back on the straights. I think Chevy has a 20 to 30 HP advantage over Ford right now.
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With 60 to go Brad cut a second and a half off Gordon's lead in about 20 laps, then Gordon held him at half a second because the 24 was a better long run car.

How could Brad cut that much time off the 24 if he had a HP disadvantage?

It was car set-up/handling that won the race for the 24 over the 2 today, not a HP advantage.
 
mreed said:
With 60 to go Brad cut a second and a half off Gordon's lead in about 20 laps, then Gordon held him at half a second because the 24 was a better long run car.

How could Brad cut that much time off the 24 if he had a HP disadvantage?

It was car set-up/handling that won the race for the 24 over the 2 today, not a HP advantage.
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That and Gordon has the worse teammates in NASCAR.

Dale Jr. didn't pay Gordon the courtesy of getting out of the way but quickly yielded to Brad.

That was when the 2 cut it to within 2 car lengths or something.
 
Reck said:
That and Gordon has the worse teammates in NASCAR.

Dale Jr. didn't pay Gordon the courtesy of getting out of the way but quickly yielded to Brad.

That was when the 2 cut it to within 2 car lengths or something.
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come on man.
 
mreed said:
With 60 to go Brad cut a second and a half off Gordon's lead in about 20 laps, then Gordon held him at half a second because the 24 was a better long run car.

How could Brad cut that much time off the 24 if he had a HP disadvantage?

It was car set-up/handling that won the race for the 24 over the 2 today, not a HP advantage.
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Thats nice. 24 was up by 5 seconds on the 2 with a few to go.
 
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