Post 2022 Gen 7 Car Upgrades

Spotter22

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But you can also take the existing car and give it more hp, worse aero and suspension parameters that would slow it down make it harder to drive. IMO if you don't have enough hp to spin the tires at a short tracks you just don't have good racing. Even tire wear doesn't help if the hp is so low that you can't light up the tires. A tire that wears out and enough hp to make a driver manage it will make good racing.

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Yeah thats getting in to an entirely different subject but 670 hp is more than enough to buzz the tires at a short track but I dont understand why you think that produces good racing? In fact we go to the track and try not to do that, forward bite is critical.
 

wi_racefan

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Yeah thats getting in to an entirely different subject but 670 hp is more than enough to buzz the tires at a short track but I dont understand why you think that produces good racing? In fact we go to the track and try not to do that, forward bite is critical.
When you manage forward bite with throttle control it puts it back in the drivers hands and makes good racing. Look at most short tracks this year. If you missed a corner you just grabbed and throttled up.

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wi_racefan

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True.
Regardless, they have a lot of work to do on this new Gen 7 POS.
I'd have to disagree. The rear impact absorbing needs work but the car has so many knobs to twist that they can potentially make it really good.

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StandOnIt

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When you manage forward bite with throttle control it puts it back in the drivers hands and makes good racing. Look at most short tracks this year. If you missed a corner you just grabbed and throttled up.

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Looks to me like on tracks where the new IRS was given a workout, road courses and short tracks, not much testing under race conditions was able to be done. They have more data now and O'Donnell says they are working on the problems. I would imagine GoodYear is also as they have more races to go by. It's going to be better this year. They nailed it on the larger tracks, the car is really racy.

One thing I noticed with the IRS. Because they can lean in the tire at the top it makes the bottom of the tire stick out from the body and is an easy flat if the tire touches another car or the wall. It is the first thing that touches on the rear of the car when it touches the wall and a big factor in bending the rear suspension.
 

KTMLew01

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One thing I noticed with the IRS. Because they can lean in the tire at the top it makes the bottom of the tire stick out from the body and is an easy flat if the tire touches another car or the wall. It is the first thing that touches on the rear of the car when it touches the wall and a big factor in bending the rear suspension.
What would he have said about that?

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KTMLew01

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Negative, Ghost Rider.
ole Doc Campbell...if you said "it hurts when I do this" he'd whack you with a rolled up newspaper and say "then don't do that. Kinda same thing Kenny Schrader would say. Don't hit the wall and you won't have any problem.
 

Spotter22

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When you manage forward bite with throttle control it puts it back in the drivers hands and makes good racing. Look at most short tracks this year. If you missed a corner you just grabbed and throttled up.

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Managing forward bite has always been a driver responsibility but you can do things to the car to help that. With the old car it was the truck arms and how much bite you were running, having not worked on this car not sure how they do it except bite is still the same
 

Formerjackman

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Yeah thats getting in to an entirely different subject but 670 hp is more than enough to buzz the tires at a short track but I dont understand why you think that produces good racing? In fact we go to the track and try not to do that, forward bite is critical.
I want the DRIVER to be the one ultimately controlling wheel spin off the corner, not the car. If you can just mat the throttle with no price to pay, that's not short track racing in my opinion.
 

Spotter22

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I want the DRIVER to be the one ultimately controlling wheel spin off the corner, not the car. If you can just mat the throttle with no price to pay, that's not short track racing in my opinion.
The driver is in control at all times, and while you are busy feathering your throttle I'll drive by you, but keep on feeling nostalgic.
 

cheesepuffs

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The driver is in control at all times, and while you are busy feathering your throttle I'll drive by you, but keep on feeling nostalgic.
How is it hard to understand that HP can overcome the limits of mechanical grip at a certain point? If you gave these cars a hypothetical 2,000 horsepower, then no, you aren't going to put enough left-rear bite into the car for the driver to be able to mat the throttle off the corner at Martinsville no matter what, with the current tire size.
 

Spotter22

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How is it hard to understand that HP can overcome the limits of mechanical grip at a certain point? If you gave these cars a hypothetical 2,000 horsepower, then no, you aren't going to put enough left-rear bite into the car for the driver to be able to mat the throttle off the corner at Martinsville no matter what, with the current tire size.
 

Spotter22

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How is it hard to understand that HP can overcome the limits of mechanical grip at a certain point? If you gave these cars a hypothetical 2,000 horsepower, then no, you aren't going to put enough left-rear bite into the car for the driver to be able to mat the throttle off the corner at Martinsville no matter what, with the current tire size.
I understand the limits of mechanical grip. Thats 101 stuff, what I'm saying is why do you feel the need to be able to buzz the right rear off the corner?
 

cheesepuffs

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I understand the limits of mechanical grip. Thats 101 stuff, what I'm saying is why do you feel the need to be able to buzz the right rear off the corner?
I want to see drivers pedaling these cars more than they need to now.

This is not an uncommon desire. Even Ray Evernham and Chad Knaus over the years have stated that they'd like to see less downforce or narrower tires for similar reasons.
 

StandOnIt

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I want to see drivers pedaling these cars more than they need to now.

This is not an uncommon desire. Even Ray Evernham and Chad Knaus over the years have stated that they'd like to see less downforce or narrower tires for similar reasons.
Two of the biggest rule benders in the sport wanting less downforce. That's hilarious
 

Formerjackman

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I understand the limits of mechanical grip. Thats 101 stuff, what I'm saying is why do you feel the need to be able to buzz the right rear off the corner?
Because that puts the race into the hands of the guys that have the best throttle control and tire management skills. As a side benefit, it rewards the teams that can make even a TINY bit more forward bite over their competitors. It also creates comers and goers, as the guys that went full bore early in the run start falling off and the more skilled/patient drivers drive back by them. I would say the exact same thing about the brakes. When any wheel jockey can can pound the brakes without concern for 500 laps at Martinsville, that is NOT a recipe for good racing.
 

2 Sweet

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Because that puts the race into the hands of the guys that have the best throttle control and tire management skills. As a side benefit, it rewards the teams that can make even a TINY bit more forward bite over their competitors. It also creates comers and goers, as the guys that went full bore early in the run start falling off and the more skilled/patient drivers drive back by them. I would say the exact same thing about the brakes. When any wheel jockey can can pound the brakes without concern for 500 laps at Martinsville, that is NOT a recipe for good racing.

You're wasting your breath. The "head in the sand" crowd will continue to live in fantasy land and say NASCAR is perfect and you're yelling at clouds or whatever. The road course races and short tracks, especially the spring Martinsville race, proved there's a problem.

The good news is that NASCAR acknowledges this, and they are working to find a solution.
 

StandOnIt

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You're wasting your breath. The "head in the sand" crowd will continue to live in fantasy land and say NASCAR is perfect and you're yelling at clouds or whatever. The road course races and short tracks, especially the spring Martinsville race, proved there's a problem.

The good news is that NASCAR acknowledges this, and they are working to find a solution.
The COTA road course was one of the more exciting races of the season. It was in Texas though and that might be your problem. People making snap judgements of the new car in it's first year is typical.
 

Spotter22

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You're wasting your breath. The "head in the sand" crowd will continue to live in fantasy land and say NASCAR is perfect and you're yelling at clouds or whatever. The road course races and short tracks, especially the spring Martinsville race, proved there's a problem.

The good news is that NASCAR acknowledges this, and they are working to find a solution.
Just what do I have my head in the sand about? Where did I say NASCAR was perfect? What is NASCAR working on concerning forward bite and wheel spin on which I was discussing?
I want to see drivers pedaling these cars more than they need to now.

This is not an uncommon desire. Even Ray Evernham and Chad Knaus over the years have stated that they'd like to see less downforce or narrower tires for similar reasons.
So 950 HP good?
 

StandOnIt

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Just what do I have my head in the sand about? Where did I say NASCAR was perfect? What is NASCAR working on concerning forward bite and wheel spin on which I was discussing?

So 950 HP good?
It's the same B.S. different day. Yawn
 

Spotter22

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Because that puts the race into the hands of the guys that have the best throttle control and tire management skills. As a side benefit, it rewards the teams that can make even a TINY bit more forward bite over their competitors. It also creates comers and goers, as the guys that went full bore early in the run start falling off and the more skilled/patient drivers drive back by them. I would say the exact same thing about the brakes. When any wheel jockey can can pound the brakes without concern for 500 laps at Martinsville, that is NOT a recipe for good racing.
Isnt that what they are doing now? Certain teams creating more forward bite and limiting wheel spin? You think these guys are matting it center out or still rolling the center and using gradual throttle when they begin to get straight?
 

StandOnIt

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Fans wanting/fantacizing for racing with more horsepower is the farthest thing from B.S.

Suggesting that it is, on the other hand..

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fans refusing to accept what is and the reasons for it is nothing but blowing in the wind
 

Formerjackman

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Isnt that what they are doing now? Certain teams creating more forward bite and limiting wheel spin? You think these guys are matting it center out or still rolling the center and using gradual throttle when they begin to get straight?
No, the inherent design of the car and tires makes any small gains the teams make irrelevant. That's why you have 38 cars running around Martinsville and Bristol at the same speed and nobody can pass. Have you actually been watching the races? New tires, old tires, great drivers, mediocre drivers, great teams, average teams, it makes no damn difference. They're all running the same speed and can't go anywhere. Dale Jr. has said more than once that if you had a goal of great short track racing, this wheel and tire combo would be the LAST thing you would do.
 

Spotter22

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No, the inherent design of the car and tires makes any small gains the teams make irrelevant. That's why you have 38 cars running around Martinsville and Bristol at the same speed and nobody can pass. Have you actually been watching the races? New tires, old tires, great drivers, mediocre drivers, great teams, average teams, it makes no damn difference. They're all running the same speed and can't go anywhere. Dale Jr. has said more than once that if you had a goal of great short track racing, this wheel and tire combo would be the LAST thing you would do.
Yes I have been watching and I dont base an entire year of racing off of a couple of lackluster races in year 1 and you are full of it if you dont think that certain teams made gains and were able to pass. Is Dale Jr gonna foot the bill for an entire revamp of the wheels,tires and suspension pieces to fit a new size? If NASCAR gives them 100 more HP on the short tracks is that gonna make you happy?
 

StandOnIt

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Yes I have been watching and I dont base an entire year of racing off of a couple of lackluster races in year 1 and you are full of it if you dont think that certain teams made gains and were able to pass. Is Dale Jr gonna foot the bill for an entire revamp of the wheels,tires and suspension pieces to fit a new size? If NASCAR gives them 100 more HP on the short tracks is that gonna make you happy?
The two Phoenix's qualifying lap times for example were a second and a half faster than the other. Who wants to bet against them being faster next year?
 

Spotter22

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The two Phoenix's qualifying lap times for example were a second and a half faster than the other. Who wants to bet against them being faster next year?
Cant be, this car is maxed out. The grandstand mechanic said so
 

Formerjackman

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Yes I have been watching and I dont base an entire year of racing off of a couple of lackluster races in year 1 and you are full of it if you dont think that certain teams made gains and were able to pass. Is Dale Jr gonna foot the bill for an entire revamp of the wheels,tires and suspension pieces to fit a new size? If NASCAR gives them 100 more HP on the short tracks is that gonna make you happy?
I think it should it least be TRIED in an organized test. I don 't think horsepower is the sole answer, but I think it would be a step in the right direction, but let's TEST it and gather FACTS.
 

Formerjackman

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Yes I have been watching and I dont base an entire year of racing off of a couple of lackluster races in year 1 and you are full of it if you dont think that certain teams made gains and were able to pass. Is Dale Jr gonna foot the bill for an entire revamp of the wheels,tires and suspension pieces to fit a new size? If NASCAR gives them 100 more HP on the short tracks is that gonna make you happy?
I think Jr's point was that perhaps not enough thought was put into how some of these changes would effect certain tracks BEFORE the fact. Now we are far enough down the road with the new car that NASCAR may be left with little more than crutches and bandaids if they are serious about improving the product at certain tracks. Adding horsepower may be one of the few things that is halfway practical.
 

Formerjackman

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The two Phoenix's qualifying lap times for example were a second and a half faster than the other. Who wants to bet against them being faster next year?
Well, for one thing, that's a pretty apples to oranges comparison when you consider one of the first races in this car with the 36th, and the fact that the teams got how many times more practice for the second race, not to mention whatever Goodyear might have done. In either case, the racing BOTH times was mediocre at best so what's your point? If everyone speeds up a similar amount, you haven't really gained anything. What is needed are things that allow driver skill and setup superiority to separate cars from each other, unless we actually WANT plate style racing EVERYWHERE, and victory becomes a total crapshoot every week.
 

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I think NASCAR is protecting Goodyear. They don't seem comfortable bringing a soft tire to the track, so they bring these rock hard hockey pucks to avoid the embarrassment of constant tire failures. That is a HUGE factor IMO.

I think this new car has a lot of potential, and NASCAR seems to have already fixed what was by far their biggest on-track issue for many years, which was the quality of racing at the intermediates. Hell, the World 600 this year was one of the best races I have seen in a decade or two. I just think it's ironic how some of us talk about wanting improvements and get labeled as death bedders or cloud yellers, but as soon as NASCAR makes changes the sunshine pumpers will talk about how brilliant they are for fixing what wasn't even an issue in their eyes.
 
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