What, exactly is coming to a “screeching halt?”
Silly Season 2023
- Thread starter Jorge De Guzman
- Start date
cheesepuffs
Team Owner
Serious question @StandOnIt why do you dislike Toyota so much?
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
It's simple. I Don't care for pious Gibbs, or the way the corporate yotas micro manage everything, the other teams have team owners who make the decisions and Hamlin and Busch are jackasses.
You mean like when Reddick said he wouldn’t try to pass the 3?
cheesepuffs
Team Owner
That's different.You mean like when Reddick said he wouldn’t try to pass the 3?
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
nope it's corporate David Wilson answering for what the team is going to do. None of the other manufacturers do that, the team owners do.You mean like when Reddick said he wouldn’t try to pass the 3?
Hey it's perfectly ok with that now a days to have a manufacture all up Joe Gibb's ass, but it wasn't years ago. I think it sucks IMO
Uh huh
It really doesn't matter why some dislike a driver or team. Accept the dislike and move on to something else.
It’s ok to disagree. 
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
Tell me why you like them so much
cheesepuffs
Team Owner
I don't. I'm Toyota neutral
cheesepuffs
Team Owner
Mark Reuss of GM is literally at the track holding Team Chevy meetings with all Chevy Cup drivers at Daytona and Talladega to explain how they are all going to work together...
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
Then I would suggest you use your ignore button.
cheesepuffs
Team Owner
Because I asked you a simple question?
Because he didn’t like your answer.
cheesepuffs
Team Owner
Yup, sounds to me like he's crying about it.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
yeah real crocodile tears I went crying to the mods about it...no wait.
Jorge De Guzman
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My post was edited ha ha oh my . The mod gods strike again!
Jorge De Guzman
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I agree with this actually, I never hear or see what the Ford or Chevy honchos say. This fella is always in the news, I think he likes hearing himself talk
I'd like to see Kelley and Dale Jr form some type of partnership with Kaulig Cup racing and use either the 16 charter or obtain a new one.
Maybe dreaming but who knows?
Maybe dreaming but who knows?
LewTheShoe
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I'm not @StandOnIt and you didn't ask me, but I'll tell ya anyway...
I don't like the business model that Toyota brings to Nascar, and I think it is bad for the sport of Nascar and potentially dangerous to its future. Before Toyota, Nascar team owners were the competitive anchor of the sport. They were supported by the OEM's but the OEM's didn't run the racing business.
Toyota decided to go about it essentially using a "factory team" strategy with one or two team owners on the receiving end. Toyota's driver development program is an example. The factory took over what had always been a team function, and poured virtually unlimited resources into it. As @Revman loves to point out, the other OEM's were forced to do the same, albeit with a fraction of the Toyota budget. Chassis engineering is another example (pre Next Gen spec chassis). Motor building is another.
The result is to raise the OEM's cost of being in Nascar. And if Chevy and/or Ford reach a point of deciding it's too costly... no bueno.
Another problem I have is that Toyota pours all these resources into just one or two teams. How about if Ford and Chevy also supported just six cars each? Yikes.
I also don't like Pious Joe Gibbs. But it hasn't always been that way... as a life-long fan of the NFL team Gibbs coached so successfully, I was excited when he established a Nascar team. He had to convince me through his actions that he was a douche canoe, and he's done that time and again.
The saying goes, hate the game, not the player.
That’s what I was told earlier this week.
That’s what I was told earlier this week.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
Bingo. Toyota had a history of outspending everybody before they got to Nascar. The younger ones don't know that or most don't and they have tried to do it in Nascar also. Personally, no way to completely prove it but I think the powers that be Jim France specificaly who is good friends with Rick Hendrick and Penske put a stop to the F-1 spending this sport was heading by bringing out the new car. Penski said a few sentences about the ridiculousness of it when they were designing the new car. I'm not for out car-ing the competition by having a different suspension upright for every track along with a different car and motor but that is where they were and most importantly it wasn't sustainable.
You fans actually clowning people for their spending habits in motorsports?
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All true up to the introduction of the Next Gen cars.
Now ... 7 cars at a time in the fleet per charter ... not 20 plus. De-tuned engines that have to do more mileage before replacement. Standardized chassis, suspension components, transaxle, body panels, brakes, wheels, etc., etc. Infrequent tire tests with use of wheel load transducers and other sensors severely limited. Time limited wind tunnel work. Toyota’s advantage, if you think they had one, has evaporated. Their ability to throw more money at fewer cars is gone.
If their budget was unlimited before, how big is it now? Or ... put another way ... why they don’t they spit up the money to pay KDB?
jaqua19
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The only drivers I've ever shared @StandOnIt level hate for were Denny Hamlin in 2010 and Brad Keselowski in 2012, and for the exact same reason.
Both drivers came into cup AFTER Carl Edwards, and both were legit championship contenders/favorite those years. I could not COPE with the idea of a driver who came into cup after Carl winning a title before him. The high school days of an overly invested @jaqua19 with no self awareness.
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Both drivers came into cup AFTER Carl Edwards, and both were legit championship contenders/favorite those years. I could not COPE with the idea of a driver who came into cup after Carl winning a title before him. The high school days of an overly invested @jaqua19 with no self awareness.
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FLRacingFan
Team Owner
The last few times I went to a Cup race Toyota had a better activation in the Midway than both Chevy and Ford. They frequently promote NASCAR in their promotional material. I can’t remember the last commercial from Ford or Chevy I saw that featured NASCAR in some way.
Idk why their driver development program is a problem? Larson, Bell, Jones, Kofoid don’t strike me as major daddy’s boys who’d have much of a shot without some external help up the ladder. TRD have acknowledged they’re not going to be able to place every driver in a Toyota Cup seat but their pipeline is a net positive for the sport as these guys get recognized by other team owners.
Idk why their driver development program is a problem? Larson, Bell, Jones, Kofoid don’t strike me as major daddy’s boys who’d have much of a shot without some external help up the ladder. TRD have acknowledged they’re not going to be able to place every driver in a Toyota Cup seat but their pipeline is a net positive for the sport as these guys get recognized by other team owners.
jaqua19
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Toyota discussions are like the chase.
It's not new anymore. Toyota changed the sport. Fans didn't like it. But they've been around the cup series for what, 15 years now?
Toyota is just another manufacture as far as I'm concerned.
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StandOnIt
Farm Truck
Tony Stewart Criticizes Toyota's Approach and Praises Ford's Driver Development Program - EssentiallySports
Former NASCAR driver Tony Stewart opened up on the success of the Ford Driver Development program and cited Chase Briscoe as the example.
www.essentiallysports.com
And then of course corporate monkey Wilson speaks...kinda funny Jones and Suarez aren't there anymore.
Toyota boss responds to Tony Stewart's criticism
Toyota Racing Development President David Wilson said: 'We’ve given drivers the opportunities that they would not have had.'
nascar.nbcsports.com
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Ford with their five full-time Xfinity/Truck entries and only one of them is respectable, there’s a model to follow for sure.Tony Stewart Criticizes Toyota's Approach and Praises Ford's Driver Development Program - EssentiallySports
Former NASCAR driver Tony Stewart opened up on the success of the Ford Driver Development program and cited Chase Briscoe as the example.www.essentiallysports.com
And then of course corporate monkey Wilson speaks...kinda funny Jones and Suarez aren't there anymore.
Toyota boss responds to Tony Stewart's criticism
Toyota Racing Development President David Wilson said: 'We’ve given drivers the opportunities that they would not have had.'
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
And the yota monkey saying drivers can go where they want when in reality the run them off lol.
Depends on who’s in the 45
wi_racefan
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I don't believe any team is spending less now, at least not willingly. They just reallocate what the money is being spent on. GM purchased an under body scanner, I'd imagine the sim and fluid dynamics budgets increased significantly.
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Kiante
Team Owner
Toyota puts this type of effort in because NASCAR has legitimately helped them sales figures wise ever since they have stepped into the sport. TRD in most cases has the larger of exhibits out of Ford and Chevy. Ford and Chevy might be nestled over in a corner somewhere, but not Toyota. They are out there with racing sims, giveaways, etc. As you explained being the midway at most events.
Toyota puts a lot in and gets a lot back in return. They do a lot more with the fans than I have with at Ford or Chevy at NASCAR events I have gone to ever since they joined the sport. The reason I feel as if they have such a logjam is due to them taking on a LOT of drivers a sifting through them all to see who is worth the increased investment. The best of the best TRD drivers get those chances in Truck, Xfinity, and Cup. It kind of reminds me when Red Bull began taking on drivers, they get handfuls of Juniors. However, who will rise above these 15 to 18 individuals? Also, who would be worth keeping in terms of pressing forward with in development at different levels?
Toyota has so many of them that its almost head-scratching at times. Also, seeing those who may bow out of the TRD program could be a positive for the likes of Chevy and Ford because they may see potential to build off of where TRD may have began with.
racingfan7
Start and Park
What are you going on about
Nascar is the game. The players are the teams and drivers.
Everyone will try to get an edge where they can.
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I agree with your last sentence.
There’s a big difference between building and maintaining 20 car fleets vs 7.
Gen 6 had more than 60 different combinations of left / right front spindles available. Next Gen uses one common front upright. Same with front control arms, rear gear sets, etc.
Teams were blowing money through wind tunnel fans day and night.
The RTA was bent on spending less. I’d say they were successful.
LewTheShoe
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We'll find out over the next year or two. Will McDowell's 34 remain in the top-10? Jones in the 43? Kaulig and Trackhouse? Or will the big players spend F1-style budgets to find a way to dominate?
A lot depends on whether those spec parts remain truly spec even for the big well-funded teams. The jury is still out on that, IMO. Will cup racing devolve into that "never-ending game of cat-and-mouse" that it's always been in the inspection process? Or will the deeply ingrained culture of cheating to run up front transition into acceptance of the new Nascar philosophy?
One thing is for sure... the engineering sophistication and cost of cheating in this Next Gen era will require bigger budgets than ever, if it's going to continue. It ain't something for the bondo guys anymore. Or Rodney Childers' fake spoilers. That's why I *hope* the blatant cheating will fade away. Time will tell.
It's a problem in that it had previously been a team function more than an OEM function, and "keeping up with the Joneses" ramps up the OEM cost structure to compete. It's a question of a factory team coming into a place where independent race teams existed (albeit with OEM support).
If Ford and Chevy transition fully to the Toyota model, it could end up looking like DTM... three brands, 18 cars. OTOH, if Ford or Chevy withdraw, that would be disastrous to Nascar... and don't ever think that could never happen.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
if they had an advantage? The yotas had 3 new front ends in 4 years, numerous changes to their Xfinity car, and for one year the Camaro's after two years of sucking had an advantage for one year. It was pretty lopsided for quite a while. This year it isn't and besides Elliott with a decent win average, nobody is winning 12, 13 races and the rest are sucking eggs and so far teams trying to get an advantage are getting caught doing so which is different than years past. Engine restrictions are also being used. I'm too lazy to look it up but they have to re use their engines and can only do so much to get them ready to race again.