So, how is talent measured in racing?

Matthew2470 said:
My favorite part about Kyle winning is that it bothers so many of you people so much. Just knowing that his success ruins your day/night makes me happy.
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You over estimate the value or presumptions. But if it makes you happy, I am happy for you.
 
Towmater said:
He was difficult to a member of the press and they made an example out of him. Similar to what the baseball writers do when it is time to vote someone into the HoF they don't like.
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I saw him to do it to Krista Voda, he did it to Jenna Fryer, and Jerry Punch.
He also got suspended for a race for saying something like wanting to beat the **** out of another reporter.
He got pulled from Roush with two races remaining on his broken contract due to a run in with Law enforcement at Phoenix.

I call that a pattern, and from a distance with the radio chatter it looks the norm.
He apparently wasnt happy at Roush, wasn't happy at Penske, probably only plays happy at SHR because it is his only un burnt bridge.

I have heard people call Karma on Patricia Driscoll with good cause.
But Kurt was messed up prior, and he has administered many self inflicted scars, entirely of his own making.
 
I agree with you Greg....... I want to like Kurt now.... but.... I do it with a wary eye because he has always made his own bed all his life and the decisions he has made have not been in his best self interest.... He's a Busch through and through and as you mentioned..... I think the only reason he has toned it down at SHR is..... it's his last chance at ever getting hired by a quality team..... and he knows that...... other than that..... he'd still be showing his Busch A$$.........
 
Greg said:
I saw him to do it to Krista Voda, he did it to Jenna Fryer, and Jerry Punch.
He also got suspended for a race for saying something like wanting to beat the sh!t out of another reporter.
He got pulled from Roush with two races remaining on his broken contract due to a run in with Law enforcement at Phoenix.

I call that a pattern, and from a distance with the radio chatter it looks the norm.
He apparently wasnt happy at Roush, wasn't happy at Penske, probably only plays happy at SHR because it is his only un burnt bridge.

I have heard people call Karma on Patricia Driscoll with good cause.
But Kurt was messed up prior, and he has administered many self inflicted scars, entirely of his own making.
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Being verbally mean to a member of the press? My bad. How could anyone ever be mad at a profession that more than half of the population is skeptical of how they do their job?
 
Clutch said:
So Kurt being a douche (according to you) makes him your second favourite driver.
Kyle being a douche (again according to you) makes him pond scum. Lol
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Not reflective of what I stated in my post. (Hope that was vanilla enough for the moderation)
 
Towmater said:
Being verbally mean to a member of the press? My bad. How could anyone ever be mad at a profession that more than half of the population is skeptical of how they do their job?
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Whatever, the behaviors I seen from him at the time, put him into the the creep category (imo) He has done better in recent years. I am happy that he has discovered some maturity. Hopefully it has more substance than the 'outlaw' campaign he conned the press into buying, and giving for his network hour long bio excuse.
 
Greg said:
Whatever, the behaviors I seen from him at the time, put him into the the creep category (imo) He has done better in recent years. I am happy that he has discovered some maturity. Hopefully it has more substance than the 'outlaw' campaign he conned the press into buying, and giving for his network hour long bio excuse.
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To each their own. Personally, I think he got caught up in the fame/I don't stink thing and when things didn't roll his way he reacted the way that he had been allowed to up until that point. In other words, like his brother is acting now. Kurt seems to have gotten wiser due to the road he has had to travel. He got kicked to the curb and found out that he needed NASCAR a lot more than it needed him. At some point, it will happen to his brother too.

I'm not excusing Kurt's behavior. He was in the wrong, but like many people I don't give a rat's ______ that he was mean to a member of the press. I've watched them cover for drivers and their behavior on and off the track. They want access and will do anything to keep it. They are vultures.
 
Towmater said:
Being verbally mean to a member of the press? My bad. How could anyone ever be mad at a profession that more than half of the population is skeptical of how they do their job?
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We're not talking about The New York Times, CNN or TMZ here. We're talking about Jamie Little and Dr. Jerry Punch. What have either of these two EVER done to anybody in the sport that warrants being ****** with them? The vast majority of the NASCAR media are more cheerleaders than critics. Give them ANY reason to say something nice about you and they will. Now Pockrass might be a little different story, but Kurt was a total D*** with him for asking a question I would have also asked. "Does being on probation effect how you race someone?" Fair question.
 
DSquad48 said:
Every thread on Kyle Busch seems to have at least a few people mention how Kyle has the most "raw talent" of any driver...

How exactly do people come to this conclusion?
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I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "raw talent", what I'm talking about is natural ability, those that just ARE fast, not those who LEARNED to go fast. Drivers with "raw talent" are often a little rough around the edges, and often make mistakes and cost themselves victories, but are ALWAYS fast. Remember Jeff Gordon's early on? Sat on the front row in his first Busch race. Wrecked a LOT of cars in Cup, but was always on the gas while doing it. Kyle Busch was fast from the moment he stepped into a race car. I remember people telling me when Kurt was the hot new thing on the circuit that his as yet unknown kid brother would make you forget all about Kurt. I was there during his first few weekends in a Hendrick ARCA car, and he was blindingly quick from day one. Jimmie Johnson is a guy that it took a good bit longer for it to come together. Yes he was decent from his first ASA test, but even after two full ASA seasons, nobody was quite sure what he would amount to. Two years in Busch, didn't change that question much. It all came together in a HUGE way, but I have followed him since ASA day one, and I wasn't sure he would EVER amount to much. With Kyle, I never had a second of doubt, and as I have said before, I don't even like the guy. That has nothing to do with facts though. Chase Elliott is another guy that was fast from the get-go in multiple types of vehicles, and I think once Hendrick gets him some better cars, he will win with regularity. He already outruns his entire team most weeks, including Johnson.
 
FWIW.....TRD/Toyota have a metric they use (computer generated) in their Driver Development Program. Takes quality of ride/finishing order out of the equation.
 
Formerjackman said:
We're not talking about The New York Times, CNN or TMZ here. We're talking about Jamie Little and Dr. Jerry Punch. What have either of these two EVER done to anybody in the sport that warrants being ****** with them? The vast majority of the NASCAR media are more cheerleaders than critics. Give them ANY reason to say something nice about you and they will. Now Pockrass might be a little different story, but Kurt was a total D*** with him for asking a question I would have also asked. "Does being on probation effect how you race someone?" Fair question.
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They tow a line and want to keep access. They could report what they see in the garage, and hear during silly season but choose not to until they are given the "OK leak it" call just before the "official" announcement is about to be made. They hide things that drivers do on and off the track all the time too. They are a part of a profession that is bent. They aren't Edward R. Murrow anymore.

So, I don't care that a member of their profession got yelled at and made to feel bad. :rolleyes:
 
Towmater said:
They tow a line and want to keep access. They could report what they see in the garage, and hear during silly season but choose not to until they are given the "OK leak it" call just before the "official" announcement is about to be made. They hide things that drivers do on and off the track all the time too. They are a part of a profession that is bent. They aren't Edward R. Murrow anymore.

So, I don't care that a member of their profession got yelled at and made to feel bad. :rolleyes:
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The point is, the vast MAJORITY of the media covering NASCAR, are NOT there to zap anybody, quite the opposite really, so why be ****** with them? I guess Kurt already has too many friends looking out for him......:rolleyes:
 
Formerjackman said:
The point is, the vast MAJORITY of the media covering NASCAR, are NOT there to zap anybody, quite the opposite really, so why be ****** with them? I guess Kurt already has too many friends looking out for him......:rolleyes:
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Maybe your point was that. It wasn't mine. Again, I don't care if a member of the press got their feelings hurt because someone didn't respect the authority. I do think Kurt was in the wrong for what he did but a reporter is NEVER going to get any empathy from me. They work in a profession I have zero respect for.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Dont think a single person discounts his talent. He's certainly one of the most talented to race in NASCAR.

IMO his maturity level hinders his overall performance. I think when he gets older he will be far more consistent.
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You obviously are not reading everything. There are many comments and threads devoted
 
Towmater said:
Maybe your point was that. It wasn't mine. Again, I don't care if a member of the press got their feelings hurt because someone didn't respect the authority. I do think Kurt was in the wrong for what he did but a reporter is NEVER going to get any empathy from me. They work in a profession I have zero respect for.
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Look, as someone of certain political persuasion, I have a LOT of problems with the media, and how reporting has become advocacy for certain views, but I think to sweep up the entire NASCAR media into that disdain is missing the mark, especially people like pit reporters, who are doing NOTHING but serving the PR needs of a driver's team and sponsors, IE, interviewing driver Joe Blow after he pulled a bonehead move and caused a 39 car wreck at Talladega to get his stupid side of the story and try to save some face. Even if you are a driver who has no respect for media figures, there are two ways to go. The nice way, and the not so nice way. If you think that being a total a**wipe to Dr. Jerry Punch, a guy who has saved driver's lives and is only giving you one more chance to give your sponsors some air time after your race ended on lap 5 does anything to help you, your team, your sponsors or your sport, then you might want to have your meds adjusted. Maybe if Kurt understood that a little better, his last three teams wouldn't have had to be ones the owner funds mostly out of his own pocket. It's not about hurting some reporter's feelings, it's about not coming off as a douchebag on national TV. Unlike most other sports, you are not only competing, you are SELLING yourself. Ever stop to wonder why Jimmie Johnson has had the same sponsor for going on two decades?
 
Again, I have zero empathy for reporters and no respect for them either. It doesn't matter is they come from the "got ya" style, "homer" style, or "how does that make you feel" style of reporting. They are leeches and vultures, IMO. Like I have stated several times in the thread, I believe Kurt was in the wrong, but I aint gonna get all choked up over one having someone raise their voice to them. Just ain't gonna happen.
 
Towmater said:
Again, I have zero empathy for reporters and no respect for them either. It doesn't matter is they come from the "got ya" style, "homer" style, or "how does that make you feel" style of reporting. They are leeches and vultures, IMO. Like I have stated several times in the thread, I believe Kurt was in the wrong, but I aint gonna get all choked up over one having someone raise their voice to them. Just ain't gonna happen.
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Once again, this NOT ABOUT the media, it's how you look to the public, the sponsors, the team owners etc. The SMART drivers use the media members to their ADVANTAGE, regardless how they might actually feel about them personally. Some of the people I dislike the most will never know it, because there is nothing to gain and much to lose by making it clear to them. Dale Earnhardt could be just as a petulant jerk as any other driver, but he also knew how to use the media to his benefit, get HIS message out, and not make enemies out of them. How many gazillions of dollars of exposure did he get for himself and for his sponsors by knowing hoe to play the game, and knowing how to be the guy the media ALWAYS wants a quote from? It's a damn good thing the Busch brothers are so utterly talented, because without that, I don't think they could sponsorship from the local gas station. The days when you could take media and sponsor relations for granted if you win enough are pretty much GONE.
 
Formerjackman said:
Once again, this NOT ABOUT the media, it's how you look to the public, the sponsors, the team owners etc. The SMART drivers use the media members to their ADVANTAGE, regardless how they might actually feel about them personally. Some of the people I dislike the most will never know it, because there is nothing to gain and much to lose by making it clear to them. Dale Earnhardt could be just as a petulant jerk as any other driver, but he also knew how to use the media to his benefit, get HIS message out, and not make enemies out of them. How many gazillions of dollars of exposure did he get for himself and for his sponsors by knowing hoe to play the game, and knowing how to be the guy the media ALWAYS wants a quote from? It's a damn good thing the Busch brothers are so utterly talented, because without that, I don't think they could sponsorship from the local gas station. The days when you could take media and sponsor relations for granted if you win enough are pretty much GONE.
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The media playing the game of being "used" is part of the reason why I dislike them. They don't report things that aren't cleared through the teams and/or NASCAR any longer. Too afraid of losing their access and their credentials. Anyone standing in the garage on race weekend catches a huge amount of information and most of the time it gets round filed by the members of the press (cough, cough) because they don't want to ruffle any feathers. Sad. They have no integrity. You said it best, they are cheerleaders that spout the party line and wonder why the sport is in the disarray it currently is in.

Kurt finds himself like other older drivers caught in a time that sponsors aren't interested in funding teams the way they used to in the past. He's on the backside of his career but is still one of the most talented drivers in the sport. The sport is downsizing. He like everyone else (NASCAR/Teams/fans/track owners) is going to have to come to terms with it and how it shakes out on his contract. He isn't alone. The downsizing is part of the reason that we are seeing a turnover in the drivers.

The thread needs to get back on track, but please feel free to respond. I enjoyed reading your point-of-view and found it insightful. I'll read any response but I won't comment back unless it is about driver talent (yes, I do agree that using the press as you wrote in the above post is a talent). I do appreciate the back and forth. It has been nice to have a back and forth that wasn't snarky or got personal. That's been unusual in my limited experience posting here.
 
I'm interested in discussion and ideas too. I came here to learn and share knowledge and opinions, not get into fights. No reason for people to get all bent out of shape because somebody sees something different than you. I have always believed that having to explain and sometimes defend what you think and what you believe makes you better. Like you, I wish there was more critical analysis in the media, but also believe there is a time and a place for everything. I don't think pit reporters should go on editorial rants during a race. In the proper setting though, I would like to hear their honest opinions about things that happen. I thought Pit Bull was a great show, but they couldn't WAIT to kill thing thing off.
 
Formerjackman said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "raw talent", what I'm talking about is natural ability, those that just ARE fast, not those who LEARNED to go fast. Drivers with "raw talent" are often a little rough around the edges, and often make mistakes and cost themselves victories, but are ALWAYS fast. Remember Jeff Gordon's early on? Sat on the front row in his first Busch race. Wrecked a LOT of cars in Cup, but was always on the gas while doing it. Kyle Busch was fast from the moment he stepped into a race car. I remember people telling me when Kurt was the hot new thing on the circuit that his as yet unknown kid brother would make you forget all about Kurt. I was there during his first few weekends in a Hendrick ARCA car, and he was blindingly quick from day one. Jimmie Johnson is a guy that it took a good bit longer for it to come together. Yes he was decent from his first ASA test, but even after two full ASA seasons, nobody was quite sure what he would amount to. Two years in Busch, didn't change that question much. It all came together in a HUGE way, but I have followed him since ASA day one, and I wasn't sure he would EVER amount to much. With Kyle, I never had a second of doubt, and as I have said before, I don't even like the guy. That has nothing to do with facts though. Chase Elliott is another guy that was fast from the get-go in multiple types of vehicles, and I think once Hendrick gets him some better cars, he will win with regularity. He already outruns his entire team most weeks, including Johnson.
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Raw talent is innate ability. But saying someone is the best driver because of that is like saying Russell Westbrook is a better player/guard than Magic Johnson because he's more athletic and a better scorer. Or that Neil Peart is the greatest rock drummer ever because of his technical profeciency.

Aaron Rogers, Peyton Manning have more innate ability than Tom Brady. Innate ability isn't an exclusively defining characteristic to determine how "good" or "great" someone is at something. Jimmie may not have had the raw innate ability as some other guys, but he grew into his talents, and worked into it. And he has something intangible that his competitors don't have to HIS degree, just like Brady, and Jordan. Jimmie has "it". Mentally, he is cool, confident, and he is a winner. These intangibles are what drive his success, and allowed him to build a skillset that allows him to dominate and become the most clutch driver in the sport. He can maximize corner speed, he has a psychological edge, he has all the intangibles that make an athlete great..he's confident and a winner in the deepest subconscious parts of his personality. Everything else blossomed. Gordan has attested to this, has said he's driven Jimmie's cars and he can't drive them as fast as him, is the overall best he's raced and has gotten beaten in the same equipment.

After Phoenix last year when he and Kyle were joking in the press conference, Jimmie played a mind game when asked who the favorite was. "My record shows im the favorite haha". Kyle's demeanor totally shifted to defensive and pissed and said "my results last year show im the favorite". Jimmie got to him, while just being cool. That alone shows the psychological advantage the guy has on these guys.

Jimmie just a totally different mindset and level of confidence than anyone in the garage.

Innate talent only takes you so far and as far as what I, and evidentally others think, all these factors just paint the simple conclusion that Jimmie Johnson is just a better race car driver than Kyle Busch.
 
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The thread title and the first post are long forgotten.
 
There is one other thing when considering how talented a driver is. His ability to be able to communicate with their crew chief, about what he needs the car to do. It also takes a crew chief that understands what the driver is telling him. Finding a crew chief that works well with a driver is not an easy thing, but has a lot to do with a drivers results. I believe every driver in any NASCAR series has raw talent, some more than others. To be a successful driver a crew chief must take that raw talent and develop, and refine that talent. Ray Evernham, and Chad Knaus, are good examples of this. Their drivers had plenty of raw talent, but they refined that talent into being very successful drivers. They were the perfect match for their drivers. Can you imagine what Kyle Busch could do if he ever found his perfect match crew chief? A drivers talent depends on much more than his raw ability. It is also what the driver learns along the way, and how they apply that knowledge.
 
Yogisd1 said:
There is one other thing when considering how talented a driver is. His ability to be able to communicate with their crew chief, about what he needs the car to do. It also takes a crew chief that understands what the driver is telling him. Finding a crew chief that works well with a driver is not an easy thing, but has a lot to do with a drivers results. I believe every driver in any NASCAR series has raw talent, some more than others. To be a successful driver a crew chief must take that raw talent and develop, and refine that talent. Ray Evernham, and Chad Knaus, are good examples of this. Their drivers had plenty of raw talent, but they refined that talent into being very successful drivers. They were the perfect match for their drivers. Can you imagine what Kyle Busch could do if he ever found his perfect match crew chief? A drivers talent depends on much more than his raw ability. It is also what the driver learns along the way, and how they apply that knowledge.
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No Oprah.

I salute you, sir.
 
sdj said:
You asked:
So, how is talent measured in racing?
One simple word: "RESULTS" jmho
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Kind of a simplistic answer. Sometimes the more talented driver never get a chance to produce those results. Sometimes things just don't work out. Bobby Allison and Kevin Harvick each have one Cup title. Are they both equally good?
 
The premise of the thread is simple.

Championships are not the only measurable metric.
 
aunty dive said:
Championships are not the only measurable metric.
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No, but in a "results" based system, they are the ultimate result. Without the championships, Dale Earnhardt falls in somewhere between Darrell Waltrip and Rusty Wallace.
 
Read post number 1.

Tim Richmond was often described as a raw talent. He had "it". That's what this thread was about.
 
No argument about Richmond. He might be the textbook definition of raw. Many feel that if had lived, he would have won several championships. I'm not sure he would have ever settled down enough, and become consistent enough to win multiple championships, much less one. I was a fan, but lets be honest. The legend of Tim was built on his performance during a four month segment of ONE season.
 
All true. Doesn't minimize his RAW talent which again, is the subject matter.

Gotta go eat. Nice talking to you.
 
"You asked:
So, how is talent measured in racing?
One simple word: "RESULTS" jmho

Kind of a simplistic answer. Sometimes the more talented driver never get a chance to produce those results. Sometimes things just don't work out. Bobby Allison and Kevin Harvick each have one Cup title. Are they both equally good?"

The only way I could ever measure talent was via a stopwatch. Put different drivers into the same car with track conditions as equal as possible and time them. Still, that doesn't factor in racing in traffic. It also doesn't really include learning curve. But you can't go by race results alone - a lot of races have been won by deep pockets (superior equipment). And forget about crowning champions amongst racers who raced in different eras - that compares apples to oranges.
 
I was just glancing back at this thread and saw someone mention Tom Brady . One of the funny things that happens sometimes is that those with the most natural ability don't always get the most out of it, while those that had to grind and work at it sometimes become the best ever. I don't think there's much question that Peyton Manning was the more naturally gifted player, but Brady's career is more impressive to me, not just because of the rings, but because he always seems to over achieve, and get 100% out of what he has to work with. God knows I like Peyton and dislike Tom, but Peyton squandered SEVERAL championship opportunities. Only a couple of the most bizarre drives in history by Eli has kept Brady from running the table in Super Bowls. I say without hesitation that Kyle Busch has more natural ability than Jimmie Johnson, but if you only look at Cup, Jimmie seems to get so much more out of what he has. I see Kyle as Peyton Manning; an off the chart talent that will lose more titles than he wins.
 
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