So, how is talent measured in racing?

DSquad48

DSquad48

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Every thread on Kyle Busch seems to have at least a few people mention how Kyle has the most "raw talent" of any driver...

How exactly do people come to this conclusion?
 
He mashes the gas, and literally every other input is in the hands of the crew and Goodyear. So if you get in his way, he's pissed. If you can mash the gas harder, he's pissed. Put him in a late 60s Plymouth, or put him in a mid 80s race at talladega, and he wouldn't be raw, likely his corpse would be charred, I doubt he'll ever be able to handle an Indy car. None of these sniveling brats would have survived this sport 30 years ago.
 
I think it's mostly about winning, car control, and overall ability. You put him in any kind of car and he'll drive at 110% like his brother. There's no doubt he has the most raw talent out of any driver right now, but Tony Stewart is still at the top of my list for all time (at least for now).
 
Look at the line Busch ran all weekend at the glen that had him about 3 tenths faster then the rest of the field..that's all driver talent. I respect JJ and he's the goat but Kyle is one of the best talents this sports ever had and his haters are starting to sound a lot like the LeBron haters in the NBA. Once Jimmie is retired there's a huge void to fill in the sport and Kenseth, Edwards, JJ, Harvick, etc will be gone soon. Kyle will win another title or two easy. And will win a lot more races. The only young talents that come close to him IMO are the guy in my profile pic and Erik Jones. And the guy in my profile pic said tonight Kyle Busch is the most talented driver he's ever raced against.
 
joe h said:
He mashes the gas, and literally every other input is in the hands of the crew and Goodyear. So if you get in his way, he's pissed. If you can mash the gas harder, he's pissed. Put him in a late 60s Plymouth, or put him in a mid 80s race at talladega, and he wouldn't be raw, likely his corpse would be charred, I doubt he'll ever be able to handle an Indy car. None of these sniveling brats would have survived this sport 30 years ago.
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His brother handled an Indy car quite well !!! Kyle is a driver ... he can drive any damned thing
 
I quantify raw talent as if I could put said driver in another form of Motorsport how would he do? A IMSA car, Indy Car, F1 car, NHRA or dirt car? I'd put both Busch brothers, Larson, Elliott, Jones in an Indy Car right now. I'd love to see how Kyle Busch could do in an F1 car, that'd be fun.
 
Snappy D said:
I quantify raw talent as if I could put said driver in another form of Motorsport how would he do? A IMSA car, Indy Car, F1 car, NHRA or dirt car? I'd put both Busch brothers, Larson, Elliott, Jones in an Indy Car right now. I'd love to see how Kyle Busch could do in an F1 car, that'd be fun.
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Elliott? No way. Jones maybe, but would need way more time to adjust. Kyle would make me nervous driving an Indycar but I think he could do it.
 
I'd gain a lot of respect for Kyle if he gets behind the wheel of an Indycar or sprint car for that matter.
 
Jimmie and Kyle are the two greatest drivers of our generation, if not ever, for different reasons.

Even if most are in Xfinity or Trucks, they're going to count in NASCAR's record books (especially since so many of Petty's wins were in 100 lap races when he ran 60 races a year)... Kyle's career will end with well over 200 wins. And given that he'll be racing for another 10-15 years, it's not out of the question that he ends up with several championships. I think he'll get a second this year.
 
lolla79 said:
Elliott? No way. Jones maybe, but would need way more time to adjust. Kyle would make me nervous driving an Indycar but I think he could do it.
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Elliott is young enough to learn and he's got the car control. He wouldn't win right away but I bet you he'd be a top 15 in points
 
joe h said:
He mashes the gas, and literally every other input is in the hands of the crew and Goodyear. So if you get in his way, he's pissed. If you can mash the gas harder, he's pissed. Put him in a late 60s Plymouth, or put him in a mid 80s race at talladega, and he wouldn't be raw, likely his corpse would be charred, I doubt he'll ever be able to handle an Indy car. None of these sniveling brats would have survived this sport 30 years ago.
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:XXROFL::XXROFL:
 
CaptainHiTop said:
Oh goody. One more thread dedicated to discounting the talent of Kyle Busch. For the love of all that's holy, we get it.
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Not discounting anything, I'm genuinely curious.

People are always on about how kyle Busch has the most raw talent in NASCAR, but I don't understand how people come to that conclusion. I never see or hear anybody rattle on about anybody else's "raw talent" when they win, so just wondering.
 
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DSquad48 said:
Not discounting anything, I'm genuinely curious.

People are always on about how kyle Busch has the most raw talent in NASCAR, but I don't understand how people come to that conclusion. I never see or hear anybody rattle on about anybody else's "raw talent" when they win, so just wondering.
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Raw talent in their universe means when a driver crashes out anybody in their way.
 
The whole issue can be summed up in one word and that is gamesmanship. Some have such a deep animus for Kyle that they go over and above what they don't like about him personally and try to make him out as some ho hum journeyman with a career predicated on good fortune. The other side loves Kyle unconditionally and nothing in his behavior makes him a petulant little jerk but in part because he is attacked early and often they have to dig deep to defend him with nebulous statements like raw talent.

If Kyle's detractors were honest they would say that they loath the way he behaves but acknowledge that he is a tremendous talent and driver. If Kyle's fans were honest they would say that they can easily understand how his attitude and antics could be seen as rude and self serving and also concentrate on one series at a time instead of trying to homogenize all his Nascar stats into one mushy ball of achievement that carries the same weight.

Instead people just choose up sides and the longer the Kyle races the more ridiculous the statements on either side will become. If I have done my job properly I will have made just about everyone mad which ain't a bad place to be.......:D
 
Statements like "crashing cars out of the way" is what I was alluding to in my previous post as I didn't see Kyle crash out anyone last night last night or the race before or the race before or the race before and so on and so on.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Statements like "crashing cars out of the way" is what I was alluding to in my previous post as I didn't see Kyle crash out anyone last night last night or the race before or the race before or the race before and so on and so on.
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I don't attack your opinions so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't attack mine. I respect your right to have an opinion and expect the same in return. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
 
Johali said:
I don't attack your opinions so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't attack mine. I respect your right to have an opinion and expect the same in return. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
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No question that you are entitled to your own opinions. I understand that people don't like Kyle and I understand why but I don't see him as an on track menace routinely crashing out cars in the cup series.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
No question that you are entitled to your own opinions. I understand that people don't like Kyle and I understand why but I don't see him as an on track menace routinely crashing out cars in the cup series.
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Although I disagree, this is an opinion and you are entitled to it.
 
Johali said:
I don't attack your opinions so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't attack mine. I respect your right to have an opinion and expect the same in return. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
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I watched all races and when did he crash people? Maybe I missed something can u please tell us.
 
Thegeneral23 said:
I watched all races and when did he crash people? Maybe I missed something can u please tell us.
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Since you asked a reasonable question I'll answer it. I've formed my opinion of him from the day he first came into the sport. There are scads of YouTube videos showing wreck after wreck that he purposely initiated. Look them up.
 
Johali said:
Since you asked a reasonable question I'll answer it. I've formed my opinion of him from the day he first came into the sport. There are scads of YouTube videos showing wreck after wreck that he purposely initiated. Look them up.
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Ok I'll check it out.
 
Thegeneral23 said:
I watched all races and when did he crash people? Maybe I missed something can u please tell us.
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That is what I don't understand as I have seen most of the cup races Kyle has participated in since his career began and I don't recall him crashing people out on an irregular basis let alone doing every 3-4 races or something crazy like that. I am missing something as Johali ain't dumb and is a longtime racing fan.
 
Thegeneral23 said:
Ok I'll check it out.
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And while you are at it check out the number of times Dale, Carl, Jeff, David Stremme (who?) Denny, Matt, David Gilliland, BKez, JLo, Rusty, Ernie Irvan, Casey Mears, Robby Gordon, Jeff Burton, Ryan Newman, Jeremy Mayfield, Geoff Bodine, Jimmy Spencer, Davey Allison, Robert Pressley etc, etc, etc. have wrecked other cars.

I don't know a Jeff Gordon fan that was mad at him for intentionally wrecking Clint Bowyer as it didn't fit their narrative. When Harvick jacked up the field at Talladega and wiped out a bunch of cars and spun out either the 21 or 6 his fans didn't see a problem just like when the incident that happened between JLo and Kenseth. Some people thought Kenseth was the bad guy because he was blocking JLo in the race JLo dumped him and then took revenge over nothing by driving JLo into the wall the next race. Others said JLo has payback coming.

People don't see these things through clear lenses and base so much of it off who they like and dislike. I have no issue at all with people treating their drivers like their children who never do anything wrong but just don't try and sell it as the unvarnished truth.
 
DSquad48 said:
Every thread on Kyle Busch seems to have at least a few people mention how Kyle has the most "raw talent" of any driver...

How exactly do people come to this conclusion?
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Raw talent is used to deflect from unfullfilled expectations.
Someone that believes Kyle Busch is the best driver, needs the raw talent plank.

Because while his accomplishments are great, first ballot Hall of Fame material etc, it does not work as well if one believes he is the GOAT.
Jimmie Johnsons are significantly better accross the board. So the "raw talent" and other Olympic Scorecard type of points have to be made. He simply doesn't measure up in terms of actual accomplishments, and if that "raw talent" ever hits peak form he better get on the championship roll soon if he ever wants to catch JJ.
Add in winning more too.
Johnsons win ratio is about a 5 to 3, when compard to Kyle.
Kyle aint getting any younger, and that raw talent needs to deliver more, to get wide spread GOAT consideration.
 
Greg said:
Raw talent is used to deflect from unfullfilled expectations.
Someone that believes Kyle Busch is the best driver, needs the raw talent plank.

Because while his accomplishments are great, first ballot Hall of Fame material etc, it does not work as well if one believes he is the GOAT.
Jimmie Johnsons are significantly better accross the board. So the "raw talent" and other Olympic Scorecard type of points have to be made. He simply doesn't measure up in terms of actual accomplishments, and if that "raw talent" ever hits peak form he better get on the championship roll soon if he ever wants to catch JJ.
Add in winning more too.
Johnsons win ratio is about a 5 to 3, when compard to Kyle.
Kyle aint getting any younger, and that raw talent needs to deliver more, to get wide spread GOAT consideration.
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Very good points as at the end of your career in any endeavor it isn't what you could have accomplished but what is in the books.
 
He still takes a back seat to Jimmie on talent.

Jimmie drives the loosest cars and has stolen so many races with 5th place cars on driving, and will alone. 2007 Atlanta vs Tony Stewart comes to mind.

Cars aside, 2004-2013 Jimmie was visibly a better driver than anyone on the track, including KB.

KB may be 2nd, but when it comes to "driving a cup car" Jimmie Johnson, and Tony Stewart were both better
 
jaqua19 said:
He still takes a back seat to Jimmie on talent.

Jimmie drives the loosest cars and has stolen so many races with 5th place cars on driving, and will alone. 2007 Atlanta vs Tony Stewart comes to mind.

Cars aside, 2004-2013 Jimmie was visibly a better driver than anyone on the track, including KB.

KB may be 2nd, but when it comes to "driving a cup car" Jimmie Johnson, and Tony Stewart were both better
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In the cup series ............ which is fine if your life revolves around the cup series. I see Johnson as a driver that never mastered the Nationwide car ......... 93 races and one win.
 
"jimmie johnson is the best a driving loose race car"

Jeff Gordon's dirt background begs to differ
 
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