JJ_14
Go Briscoe!
There would have to be a rule that states that you need to be a full-timer to qualify for the championship.
If you're the winningest driver in Cup, I can't see the driver being that low in the standings.
so what is going to be the new points system?
- Thread starter acmerocket
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If you're the winningest driver in Cup, I can't see the driver being that low in the standings.
HoneyBadger
Kelsey Mitchell fan account
An entirely possible scenario with the existence of Shane Van Gisbergen.
Dwayne
Team Owner
Yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but the last few years the most wins is 10 by Larson in 2021 but he also had 20 top 5's, now what if the bizarre were to happen and he had 20 dnf's? Yes I'm exaggerating again but you get the point, it could be entirely possible for the driver with the most wins to also have the most dnf's and is nowhere near the top, consistency has to matter as well, not an easy situation but there has to be a way.
JJ_14
Go Briscoe!
I do think that in the suggested scenario, drivers would be extra motivated to beat SVG at road courses. Regulars have been getting better and better at RCs these past few years.
I wouldn't have a problem with SVG winning a title under those circumstances. RCs are here to stay, and I like it.
HoneyBadger
Kelsey Mitchell fan account
They have extra motivation to beat him on road courses now which is the 10 playoff points.
virtualbalboa
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They should have sufficient motivation to beat him because they are professional racing drivers participating in professional motor races. If they lack the motivation to try to succeed in a race against him, they should retire immediately.
It seems clear to me that NASCAR is not going to go back to full series points and frankly it does seem that they are even going to keep stage points or stage cautions. Their way around not giving me the thing I want and going back to a failed iteration of the playoff system from their perspective is to say they're going to do some sort of apology tour where they apologize for everything but the issues I had with it. You know: points system that crowns a full season champion and avoids the issues and additional complexity that comes with any playoff iteration; lack of transparency from the sanctioning body; lack of support to the grassroots and non-national classes such that I would generously call NASCAR's operation of the present day ARCA/Mods "revenue extractive". What is NASCAR sorry for? Me finding out they think I'm illiterate? Providing financial support to the likes of Bubba Wallace and Kyle Larson? Jokes on them: I think they're incompetent enough to get crushed in court by a three headed monster of problem gambler, gigolo, and Yum Brands 2017 Franchisee Of The Year and I have no expectation anything will ever really change in that regard.
It seems clear to me that NASCAR is not going to go back to full series points and frankly it does seem that they are even going to keep stage points or stage cautions. Their way around not giving me the thing I want and going back to a failed iteration of the playoff system from their perspective is to say they're going to do some sort of apology tour where they apologize for everything but the issues I had with it. You know: points system that crowns a full season champion and avoids the issues and additional complexity that comes with any playoff iteration; lack of transparency from the sanctioning body; lack of support to the grassroots and non-national classes such that I would generously call NASCAR's operation of the present day ARCA/Mods "revenue extractive". What is NASCAR sorry for? Me finding out they think I'm illiterate? Providing financial support to the likes of Bubba Wallace and Kyle Larson? Jokes on them: I think they're incompetent enough to get crushed in court by a three headed monster of problem gambler, gigolo, and Yum Brands 2017 Franchisee Of The Year and I have no expectation anything will ever really change in that regard.
Blaze
The Midnight Rider
This is the issue I point out anytime that silly scenario is brought up.
You may be over-personalizing this.
Whatever NASCA$H decides, it won’t be what the fans want.
Jorge De Guzman
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Apologies but the only thing I got out of this is I’m trying to figure out which one the Gigolo is ?
RaceCritter
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I think we must eliminate “win and you’re in” but If also like to see points doubled for top three for the race finish. Fine have stage points but seriously skew the rewards for winning or trying to win the thing. Not just racking up points the first two stages and then placing 8th.
!
HoneyBadger
Kelsey Mitchell fan account
Yeah, I'm gonna have to call
on this one.NASCAR Regional is probably the strongest thing NASCAR has going for itself right now. Well, that and the O'Reilly Xfinity Nationwide Busch Grand National Sportsman WhateverItsCalledNow Series putting on barnburners every week on free-to-air OTA TV.
HoneyBadger
Kelsey Mitchell fan account
"Win and You're In" provides a new layer of excitement during those mid-summer months.
I mean, if we get rid of "win and you're in" and "a win advances you to the next round" and the one race finale, and we go to either a 10 race Chase or a four race final round ... and I can't stress this enough:
What valid reason is there for not going back to a 36-race championship?
I don't think the playoffs are bringing in any new viewers. I don't think a new playoff format is going to bring in any new viewers. 10 of the final 14 races will probably produce 20% or more drops in viewership no matter what because they're on Versant Sports.
But all the changes that look likely honestly make the postseason format less interesting.
So, again, why not go back to a 36-race championship?
They can make the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, Brickyard 400, Southern 500 and Championship Finale double points races to add that dimension of prestige and excitement. And make it less likely that the championship is decided in mid-October.
HoneyBadger
Kelsey Mitchell fan account
This. All of this.
Not a single damn driver wakes up on race day hoping to finish 8th.
RaceCritter
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“Not a single damn driver wakes up on race day hoping to finish 8th.“
I never thought Cody Ware intended to be that high…
I never thought Cody Ware intended to be that high…
Note the difference between 'hoping to finish' and 'expecting to finish'. I have no doubt all drivers hope to finish first, but strongly doubt Cody Ware expects to finish on the lead lap.
virtualbalboa
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The one who sleeps with all married drivers' wives or girlfriends.
virtualbalboa
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Nah. Not even close. ARCA today is an amalgam of all their regional late model series (Winston West, Busch North) and the historic ARCA which barely manages 20 cars most weeks in stark contrast to eras I (a non-boomer or GenXer) lived through and can remember. The NASCAR Modified Tour similarly is a mess compared to what it once was. And let's not even get into how many tracks abandoned NASCAR sanction and participation in the Weekly Series (which is incredibly irrelevant now).Yeah, I'm gonna have to call
NASCAR Regional is probably the strongest thing NASCAR has going for itself right now. Well, that and the O'Reilly Xfinity Nationwide Busch Grand National Sportsman WhateverItsCalledNow Series putting on barnburners every week on free-to-air OTA TV.
Do trucks and Grand National put on the best races for NASCAR? Probably so. Does that mean NASCAR's done a great job? I dunno, you tell me why you think Busch North now has half the entries and 4x the tow distances today.
Jorge De Guzman
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Huh?
Naitch
Reads history books
Part of the core issue is that NASCAR teams don’t even see the grassroots of stock car racing as its feeder any more. You either have to drive a winged sprint car really well or have a lot of money behind you to break in these days.
Over 2 thousand entries for the Shootout and at least 3 times that many didn't come. Probably be over 700 entries for the Chili Bowl. I wouldn't call it an issue, but a huge talent pool that shouldn't be ignored. It's where most of the grass roots racing is happening now days.
I'm not sure what it says about Cup cars when sprint cars are viewed as better development path for Cup than the 'traditional' late models route. I think it says more about the last two or three generations of Cup cars than anything else.
Pretty sure it says more about some fans wearing blinders or not paying attention for years about where drivers come from that race in the Nascar series. Talent comes from all over. Just because the gerbils and other press act surprised if someone comes to Nascar besides their narrow band of influence doesn't make it a reality. Junior Johnson, Lee Petty, Fireball Roberts, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Cale Yarborough, Darell Waltrip, Budy Baker, A.J. Foyt, Stewart, R. Wallace, Schrader, Edwards, Boyer, Gordon and many others came from dirt roots long before there was a "new car".
Larson, Bell, Briscoe, Reddick, Bowman, Stenhouse Jr, Blaney to name a few race currently in Nascar whose roots are in dirt racing. Others are standouts in road racing like Zillisch and SVG.
It's a very large talent pool.
Yeah, I wasn't downplaying the depth of talent in that form of racing. It just seems like something is out of whack when the best way to learn to drive a top-level 'stock car' on pavement is by driving non-stock cars on dirt. That implies to me that Cup (and O'Reilly?) cars have less in common with late models than they do with sprint cars. I don't know how much NASCAR owes to its traditional local tracks but maybe this is a factor in their decline? If you want to move up, why race pavement?
virtualbalboa
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Hamlin (allegedly).
virtualbalboa
driver of corey day bandwagon since 2022
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This is a message board and the point is that we share our opinions. I admit this is nothing beyond that, but you know, it's been educated over the years by various experiences I've had and knowledge I've gleaned and as such I will make the strongest argument possible supported by evidence for my position. Fair, right?
I disagree with your base notion but it comes with the caveat that my disagreement is not black and white/right and wrong. What I see in NASCARWorld is that being a pavement late model driver who is based somewhere in or around Mooresville, NC is an expectation for anyone who wants to participate in NASCAR in much the same way it seems it is expected that F1 teams will operate out of the UK. This has been the expectation since Joey Logano abandoned my old stomping grounds of Southeastern CT before he had managed to actually carve a name out for himself in local competition. Parents take their kids out there, they run Millbridge on Wednesday nights, they run the Legends series at Charlotte Motor Speedway, they dress the kid up in a suit and take them to PRI to find sponsors, the whole nine yards.
Ultimately though, there is an issue with this system. Pavement late model racing in the Carolinas doesn't pay the bills. Pavement racing in general is much harder on both tires (because fast + pavement = wear) and equipment (because fast = wear) but for a long litany of reasons I can't personally explain yet, the purse structure for it is basically trapped in the 1970s. There also isn't the same sort of structured subculture in the way dirt racing has; this is my way of trying to explain why it is I never see pavement racing teams putting the same effort into merch sales that their dirt brethren do. I generally assume however this is the manifestation of a different issue.
I have a general hypothesis that as the sport got more popular in the 1980s on the back of RJR, you had more people who were willing to act as ride buyers to enter the sport and try and make their way up the ladder. Before that, you had regional scenes where drivers could eke out a living racing outlaw or semi-outlaw in places like Wisconsin, Michigan, the Carolinas, New England, West Coast, etc. But then as the big money arrives and these cars are basically the same thing as a Cup car, the equation changes. Instead of people trying to sustainably race or "just have fun" alongside more serious competitors driven by profit, you have an entire field more motivated and capable of winning but also a field that will disappear if the wealth at the top disappeared. That eventually happened because of NASCAR's mismanagement of the sport, and now ARCA is a ghost town and the entire late model world is being rebuilt. All that was left were rich kids who could afford the ever more expensive equipment and ever more expensive tire bill as they shot for the stars and a Hendrick/Penske/Gibbs ride. Those rich kids and their parents and their million dollar motor home they tow a $5k micro frame with are the real economy of Mooresville, NC. Without them now, there are no sponsors seeking to simply get exposure in NASCAR like there once was. Take them away and there is no longer a foundation for the building.
Dirt racing, however, has managed to keep a little cheaper especially on the consumable front of tires. The nature of dirt just means you can usually get by using tires more frequently than pavement (can't lose as much rubber if there's nothing solid to stick to) and thus reducing that cost. At these low margins, having to spend $2000 on tires each night is a huge expense. That has meant that dirt has been a better value for people seeking to get into NASCAR as there are clearly many drivers who have made the transition from Chase Briscoe to Jeff Gordon to Ricky Stenhouse Jr. to Tony Stewart. That dirt racing has been a better value does not mean it will always be one. People with money have gravitated towards it too and if you look at the midget ranks, there's a lot of money pooled there developing talent to go somewhere. Also, there is the simple reality that no one makes the leap directly from the WoO or Lucas Oil Late Models to Cup. Corey Day is going through the ladder just as Larson and Stewart and Reddick did before him and everyone after him will be forced to do too. If drivers like this don't do the pavement ladder, the ladder falls apart as is can only be sustained with their money now.
In summary/Tl;DR - I think that it is untrue that NASCAR teams only value being a dirt racer. They value dirt racers in a different way because the structure of that is more conducive to talent self selecting (meritocracy) vs. asphalt racing. That said, the majority of drivers are still coming through the pavement ranks and have to jump through the hoops the teams and suppliers and ecosystem have set up to gain entry, much of which relates to becoming a fixture in a specific region of the Charlotte metro area. Even a great dirt racer (Corey Day, for example) is ultimately expected to submit to that ladder and promote it.
virtualbalboa
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I think it comes down to simple math. If you can win twice as much money for half as much expense racing on dirt, and there's no penalty for racing dirt in terms of getting to NASCAR, then you probably should race on dirt if NASCAR is the end goal. I don't think it is any more complex than that. Otherwise, like, seriously about this too - is there really any value for a prospective Cup prospect in 2026 to race a Street Stock for a season? I mean, I think it would be great experience for a young driver to learn how to race cleanly around other folks, but that's not what someone like Gibbs is looking for. You're much, much, much better off then not making a first pavement start until you're in a late model and already an established name IMO.
Why starve your ass off driving a late model racing in only a handful of races, when you can run a dirt 410 and run 80 races a year easily?
virtualbalboa
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That's a very short version of that without any nuance and yeah it is still an effective explanation in many ways. What's the best paying pavement late model race? 25K, 30K? There's probably 30-50 wing races that pay that much or more now in front of more fans who buy more merch and yet it costs less to run the wing car.
Jorge De Guzman
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Alleged? So its not proven? This is National Enquirer/TMZ/Facebook Comments levels of filth. I had never heard about this, and feel gross I had to engage in it. IMO, inuendo's like this can bring a good well versed place like this down pretty quick.
I freely admit that all I know about dirt racing is that it's done in cars on dirt., with no knowledge of how mmuch it pays relative to other forms of racing. For example,
I'm unfamiliar with this structure.
Jorge De Guzman
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Watch, we're going to wind up with the same thing except instead of 'Rounds' (of 16, 12 and 8), they'll be called 'Loganos'.
"Dillon needs to finish at least third if he's going to advance to the Logano of 8!"
"Dillon needs to finish at least third if he's going to advance to the Logano of 8!"
Naitch
Reads history books
I don’t think we’re actually that far apart, but I do think this circles back to the core point I was originally trying to make. I agree with most of your diagnosis of how the system works today. The pull of Charlotte, the economic reality of pavement late models, the collapse of regional asphalt racing, and why dirt has functioned as a better merit filter for a long time all make sense.
Where I think the disagreement really sits is on causation. I’m not arguing that teams only value dirt racers or that asphalt drivers are dismissed. Clearly that isn’t true. Plenty of elite drivers came up the pavement ladder. But those pavement paths almost always required meaningful money and infrastructure very early, which makes them expensive and noisy as scouting environments. With guys like Larson, Bell, or Reddick, the key difference is that their talent revealed itself before serious capital entered the picture. Money followed ability instead of preceding it. That isn’t because dirt is inherently superior. It’s because dirt, at least at the lower levels, delays the point where money starts to obscure talent.
And that ties directly back to my original point. NASCAR doesn’t meaningfully invest in the grassroots of stock car racing anymore because it doesn’t have to. Dirt racing has become the initial filtering mechanism, and it does that job at a fraction of the cost. Teams can watch large fields, high variability, and real competition without underwriting regional asphalt series, tire bills, or development infrastructure.
There’s also a downstream effect of this shift that shows up in race craft. When drivers bypass lower-level stock car series where managing heavy, underpowered cars over long runs actually matters, they lose a layer of development. Modern drivers tend to be more aggressive and less surgical, relying on restarts, raw pace, and margin instead of tire management, positioning, and patience. That isn’t because they’re less talented. It’s because the system no longer forces them to learn those skills early. Once a driver clears the dirt filter, the pavement ladder becomes the capital-intensive phase of development. Even the best dirt racers still have to submit to it, but by then the ladder exists more to absorb money than to teach fundamentals.
So the shift isn’t ideological or cultural. It’s economic. Dirt provides cheap signal. Asphalt absorbs capital. And the byproduct is a generation of drivers who reach the top having learned how to win races, but not always how to run them the way earlier stock car paths demanded. All of that is exactly why NASCAR should be investing in grassroots stock car racing and doing more to steer sponsor money in that direction. Dirt may be a cheaper filtering mechanism, but it cannot replace a healthy regional asphalt ecosystem that teaches race craft, sustainability, and long-form competition. If NASCAR wants drivers who are not just fast but complete, it needs places where talent can develop without requiring immediate relocation, massive capital, or family wealth. Rebuilding and supporting lower-level stock car series would not just improve the quality of the racing at the top, it would also create a broader, more stable base for sponsors who currently have nowhere affordable or meaningful to enter the sport. Dirt can remain part of the funnel, of course, but it should take a backseat to asphalt stock car racing.
Not close. Tire management is more important in the dirt ranks than it has been until very recently in Nascar (cup series only). In the lower ranks of pavement racing they have mandatory pitting to change tires.
Car control between the two is no comparison with pavement playing follow the leader lap after lap and the dirt people are constantly looking for a mistake or different lines to pass because they usually have different lines available unlike single lane pavement tracks.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the pace of the race between the two is a night and day difference.
And the big tell is that one of the pavement late model series had to be saved with an influx of capitol from Jr. and Harvick. By comparison, their are small grass root dirt tracks springing up all over the place. 3 here in the Tulsa area, 3 more in OKC. and this is happening all over the country. 2,200 entries last weekend. I guarantee there isn't that many pavement cars in the whole country. There were like what 50 cars at the Snowball maybe 75?
virtualbalboa
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I don't want to write a novel, but I see things structured in an informal fashion around the sport in a different way because of the barnstorming nature. I'm talking about how there's an economy of things like graphic designers who make a living (or at least a partial living) designing shirts and side boards.
virtualbalboa
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I agree with all of this and I think ultimately our disagreement is just one of nuance and language. We fundamentally believe exactly the same thing (which in fairness; what we believe is objective reality).
Imagine if The France Family had taken, I dunno, half the money they do now from the media deal off the top and instead of putting it in their pockets or investing it in things completely unrelated to NASCAR, they put it into the sport again. That's over $50 million a year now. Not earth shattering sums or anything, but probably multiples of the budget that the Lucas Oil Late Models runs under for example. Instead ARCA still pays 10K to win and we wonder why there's nowhere for older drivers to go or why the development ladder is so jacked up.
I miss the days when the Truck series was the home of senior journeymen instead of a development step. I'd love to see it restricted to drivers with a minimum of five years Cup or second-tier experience. I don't think we'll see the Trucks return to barnstorming smaller tracks; TV likes to have them at the same tracks as Cup since that where the coverage assets are already deployed.