Thoughts on Uncle Harv

aunty dive said:
It happens once in awhile.

The most recent occurrence that I can remember happened in 1976 during a disagreement I was having with another gentleman concerning the fortunes of The Taranna Maple Leaves. The guy was an idiot, but I didn't mention that.
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LOL.....Mathews, Marner, Rielly and Nylander! Looking forward to the world cup or whatever it is called and seeing the Leafs make the playoffs before the B's do!
 
29-4 said:
With all due respect, it seems you don't know what socialism means. By your argument, the entire Drive for Diversity program is socialism because it may prevent a more deserving white male from making it into racing.

I would argue that the point of the DD program is to provide access to NASCAR to those who otherwise couldn't make it to broaden the appeal to more fans. That isn't socialism, it's smart business.
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Call it whatever you like and you're right, it is smart business.

It does not and never will limit the participation of people with means.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
The difference between sports and auto racing is that in sports you have to be proficient and you are fighting to keep your playing time and job every single day. In racing the primary mover is not about being good but being able to have access to money in order to get your start and remain employed. If Jimmie Johnson can't attract a sponsor he is moving back to El Cajon.
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Nonsense.

Kyle Larson proves the lie.
 
Again, it's no more socialist than the salary cap in the NFL. Green Bay can't compete on an even playing field with the LA Rams without a salary cap. I don't think you would say the Packers should just use what is available to them and work their way up. Fans want a competitive product, and so a salary cap is put in place. By the same token, race fans want to see drivers from blue collar backgrounds, and not just those born with a silver spoon in their mouth. NASCAR should encourage that.

The difference between Jimmie Johnson and a guy at your local short track is less than the difference between Jameis Winston and the guy who plays tag-football on the weekends. Money matters more in racing, as Skoal pointed out.
 
29-4 said:
Again, it's no more socialist than the salary cap in the NFL. Green Bay can't compete on an even playing field with the LA Rams without a salary cap. I don't think you would say the Packers should just use what is available to them and work their way up. Fans want a competitive product, and so a salary cap is put in place. By the same token, race fans want to see drivers from blue collar backgrounds, and not just those born with a silver spoon in their mouth. NASCAR should encourage that.
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Don't bring Football or any ball sport into racing. Salary caps were put in place to control very rich men from spending their way into bankruptcy. They would pay 25 million a year to keep a pitcher from playing for someone else.
 
29-4 said:
Larson is the exception to the rule. Larson's story proves how hard it is without money.
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Denny Hamlin
Jamie McMurray
Matt Kenseth
Kasey Kahne
Ryan Newman
Kyle Busch
Kurt Busch
Ryan Blaney
Chris Buescher
Ricky Stenhouse Jr.
Carl Edwards
Greg Biffle
Trevor Bayne
Tony Stewart
Jeff Gordon
Jimmie Johnson
AJ Allmendinger
Aric Almirola ... I could go on but I'm bored with this.

Not a silver spoon on that list. Are they also exceptions to the rule? Your Utopian "vision" for this sport makes me laugh.
 
aunty dive said:
Denny Hamlin
Jamie McMurray
Matt Kenseth
Kasey Kahne
Ryan Newman
Kyle Busch
Kurt Busch
Ryan Blaney
Chris Buescher
Ricky Stenhouse Jr.
Carl Edwards
Greg Biffle
Trevor Bayne
Tony Stewart
Jeff Gordon
Jimmie Johnson
AJ Allmendinger
Aric Almirola ... I could go on but I'm bored with this.

Not a silver spoon on that list. Are they also exceptions to the rule? Your Utopian "vision" for this sport makes me laugh.
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I don't have time to go through each of these guys biographies. But I think if you talk to people in the know-like Larson-you would hear that drivers self funding their rides has increased significantly in recent years.
 
29-4 said:
I don't have time to go through each of these guys biographies. But I think if you talk to people in the know-like Larson-you would hear that drivers self funding their rides has increased significantly in recent years.
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There's no need for you to go through any of them.

At lower levels, I agree that more people self-fund now than in the past. That fact is extant in every form of motorsport across the globe. Any expectation that things should be or will be different in NASCAR is foolhardy.
 
aunty dive said:
There's no need for you to go through any of them.

At lower levels, I agree that more people self-fund now than in the past. That fact is extant in every form of motorsport across the globe. Any expectation that things should be or will be different in NASCAR is foolhardy.
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I just don't think there is any reason for NASCAR not to try to mitigate this.
 
Big difference between quotas and giving some of the roughly 97% of the population who have no shot at NASCAR due to their economic status a chance
 
An awful lot of money is spent before anybody is considered talented enough for a shot at the Diversity Program.

In the Utopian world described here, who pays for that?
 
Well, the 4 and the 10 didn't completely change pit crews like I said they might do,but they did take the two best pit crew members from the 10 and swap them for the two worst 4 pit crew members. It isnt easy being a DP fan.

Bob PockrassNASCAR
pockrass_bob_m.jpg

Kevin Harvick will get Danica Patrick's front tire changer Eric Maycroft and front tire carrier Matt Holzbaur starting this weekend at Richmond. Harvick's former front tire changer Tim Sheets and front tire carrier Todd Drakulich will move to Patrick's pit crew. Harvick was critical of his Stewart-Haas Racing pit crew's performance following a second-place finish Sunday at Darlington.
 
29-4 said:
While I think the Chase and loss of traditional races is a big driver of NASCAR's decline, I think the boring, antiseptic drivers who rattle off sponsors without any emotion also play a role.
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Hey, you are double counting! A couple days ago you said Nascar's decline was caused by Junior Nation fanboys leaving because Dale Jr. didn't win often enough. But now it's because Rockingham went bust and drivers represent their sponsors? So which is it?
 
LewTheShoe said:
Hey, you are double counting! A couple days ago you said Nascar's decline was caused by Junior Nation fanboys leaving because Dale Jr. didn't win often enough. But now it's because Rockingham went bust and drivers represent their sponsors? So which is it?
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JMO but the decline has been caused by several things which make even attempting to fix it more challenging. I think things like Dale Jr's long drought, the CoT spec car, perceived boring racing, the loss of tradition and incessant rule changes were part of the problem. I could list a litany of things that caused me to go from being an enthusiastic fan to a lukewarm one but it is easier to sum it up by saying watching and attending races did not provide the value for me as they did in years past.
 
The decline in racing attendance has been due to lots of things: Economy-I know it has affected me as I'm in oil and gas. Price-ridiculous price gauging from hotels and their "special event-minimum stay" BS. And to some it was a fad sport. The fans jumping on in late 90's were not going to stay no matter what. Now they are all UFC fans for now.
 
Ford 222 said:
The decline in racing attendance has been due to lots of things: Economy-I know it has affected me as I'm in oil and gas. Price-ridiculous price gauging from hotels and their "special event-minimum stay" BS. And to some it was a fad sport. The fans jumping on in late 90's were not going to stay no matter what. Now they are all UFC fans for now.
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...and in one post, the attendance BS has been put into proper perspective. I mean that sincerely. Well done......particularly the fad sport part. Many want to bitch about the attendance as a way of justifying their hatred for the changes NASCAR has made so they will never see the accuracy of your post, but those without a vested interest in empty seats get it. Again, great perspective.
 
aunty dive said:
You say that as if it were a bad thing.
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Harvick had a shot in spite of all of the issues, and didn't get it done, but that got lost in all of this somewhere. I think Martin was faster than anticipated at the end, and a driver suit was stained.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
The difference between sports and auto racing is that in sports you have to be proficient and you are fighting to keep your playing time and job every single day. In racing the primary mover is not about being good but being able to have access to money in order to get your start and remain employed. If Jimmie Johnson can't attract a sponsor he is moving back to El Cajon.
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This is such a load of nonsense. Jimmie Johnson broke into Cup racing with no money and no sponsor. He is still there 15 years later because he proved to be proficient at it. It is a process that has been repeated over and over, and has produced almost all the significant drivers in the sport. It is exceptionally rare that Daddy owns a Cup team, although that did give a start to Richard Petty, Dale Jr., and Austin Dillon. If you choose to define the sport by a handful of backmarkers such as Paul Menard and Danica Patrick, you are grasping at straws to make a twisted point.
 
Ford 222 said:
The decline in racing attendance has been due to lots of things: Economy-I know it has affected me as I'm in oil and gas. Price-ridiculous price gauging from hotels and their "special event-minimum stay" BS. And to some it was a fad sport. The fans jumping on in late 90's were not going to stay no matter what. Now they are all UFC fans for now.
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The long term problem for Nascar is not the lack of fans in the stands or even the lack of viewers at home. The real problem is Nascar's aging fan base as 50% of them are over 55 which is terrible. If there was an influx of younger people flocking to the series that number could be mitigated but only 14% of its fans are under 34 which is abysmal. I am not a mathematician but you don't have to be when extrapolating the numbers and the current trend. At this point it sure looks like Nascar will go the way of open wheel racing in that it will always have a presence but will have a much smaller footprint then it has today.
 
LewTheShoe said:
This is such a load of nonsense. Jimmie Johnson broke into Cup racing with no money and no sponsor. He is still there 15 years later because he proved to be proficient at it. It is a process that has been repeated over and over, and has produced almost all the significant drivers in the sport. It is exceptionally rare that Daddy owns a Cup team, although that did give a start to Richard Petty, Dale Jr., and Austin Dillon. If you choose to define the sport by a handful of backmarkers such as Paul Menard and Danica Patrick, you are grasping at straws to make a twisted point.
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We are back to our failure to communicate thing again. What I said was: "The difference between sports and auto racing is that in sports you have to be proficient and you are fighting to keep your playing time and job every single day. In racing the primary mover is not about being good but being able to have access to money in order to get your start and remain employed. If Jimmie Johnson can't attract a sponsor he is moving back to El Cajon."

Nothing I said is untrue nor should it be controversial but lets break it down. In sports you have to do your job every time you are on the playing field because if you don't you will be demoted or cut if the lack of performance persists. True or false?

In sports you have to fight to keep your job as some backup or rookie is trying to take it away from you. There are cases where ensconced superstars have a little more leeway with this but the bottom line is if they don't perform they don't play. True or false?

In racing the matter of primary importance is having the funding to field a team because if you don't have the resources to do so you are not getting a foot from shore regardless of your proficiency. True or false?

If for some crazy reason Jimmie Johnson was unpalatable to sponsors he could not race in Nascar because he could not attract the money to finance a team. True of false?

A few years back Jeff Burton was driving around a black or white #99 car because no sponsor could be found with him as the driver and that necessitated him leaving RF. JB left to go to RCR to drive the #31 Cingular sponsored Chevy as they deemed him acceptable and the #99 car had sponsorship the moment Carl Edwards came on board. True or false?
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
If for some crazy reason Jimmie Johnson was unpalatable to sponsors he could not race in Nascar because he could not attract the money to finance a team. True of false?
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If Mr. Johnson was unpalatable to sponsors he wouldn't have made it to the Cup series in the first place.

Talent is what got him there and it is what keeps him there. Sponsors love to back winners.
 
Skoal, keep repeating it as if you believe it. It is the owner's job to fund the team, and to hire talented people to compete on track, including driver among many others. The Paul Menard/Danica Patrick model is not the norm, and I'm pretty sure you know that. And your example of Burton getting pushed out by a more-promising Edwards supports my viewpoint more than yours.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Skoal, keep repeating it as if you believe it. It is the owner's job to fund the team, and to hire talented people to compete on track, including driver among many others. The Paul Menard/Danica Patrick model is not the norm, and I'm pretty sure you know that. And your example of Burton getting pushed out by a more-promising Edwards supports my viewpoint more than yours.
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As near as I can tell we agree as being a good driver will always be attractive to teams and sponsors and it would be unusual to see a top driver unemployed. The best way to obtain and retain a ride in Nascar is to be good or show potential but that is not the only way. In Nascar you can buy a ride and compete right away if you have the ability to stroke the check.

In sports you have to be good to get the job and good to keep it as it doesn't matter what your race, ethnicity, nationality, or financial or social status is. There is no second way of buying yourself a job on a team and remaining employed as the only thing that will keep you employed is performance.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
As near as I can tell we agree as being a good driver will always be attractive to teams and sponsors and it would be unusual to see a top driver unemployed. The best way to obtain and retain a ride in Nascar is to be good or show potential but that is not the only way. In Nascar you can buy a ride and compete right away if you have the ability to stroke the check.

In sports you have to be good to get the job and good to keep it as it doesn't matter what your race, ethnicity, nationality, or financial or social status is. There is no second way of buying yourself a job on a team and remaining employed as the only thing that will keep you employed is performance.
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Exactly. In racing it's 'be talented OR bring money.' In other sports, there is only option 1. I don't think anyone here will tell me that Danica, Menard, and other ride-buyers are among America's 40 best stock car drivers.
 
29-4 said:
Exactly. In racing it's 'be talented OR bring money.' In other sports, there is only option 1. I don't think anyone here will tell me that Danica, Menard, and other ride-buyers are among America's 40 best stock car drivers.
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Since when did DP's daddy like Menard's buy and sponsor her ride? I'm pretty sure her dad bought her a go-cart at a young age and sent off to Britain by herself to learn how to drive open wheel. From what I remember is she did very well over there and was discovered by Rahal who signed her to race Indy.
 
Mr Excitement said:
Since when did DP's daddy like Menard's buy and sponsor her ride? I'm pretty sure her dad bought her a go-cart at a young age and sent off to Britain by herself to learn how to drive open wheel. From what I remember is she did very well over there and was discovered by Rahal who signed her to race Indy.
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I'll admit, Danica isn't the best example of this. While she is absolutely undeserving of her ride, it isn't because of a silver spoon. So take out Danica and put Brian Scott or Brendan Gaughan.
 
Brendan Gaughan is not in Cup. Brian Scott is likely a one-and-done with a small, underfunded team facing a serious revenue shortfall. @29-4 you are trying to make the case that Nascar is being taken over by no-talent spoiled rich guys but that case does not stand up to scrutiny.
 
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