Time to look at playoff format?

aunty dive

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Atlanta of this year

Thank you.

3 right rear failures in 500 miles ... 5 months ago. I understand the need to use hyperbole in order to make a point.
 

Charlie Spencer

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aunty dive

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I don’t know about easy.

It’s a tough contract given the variety of track types and surfaces they deal with.
 

Jorge De Guzman

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This thread is playing all my favorite songs here at Racing-Forums.com from the Points system to now tires. We're "fixing" all of NASCAR's problems in this here thread.
 

Formerjackman

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This thread is playing all my favorite songs here at Racing-Forums.com from the Points system to now tires. We're "fixing" all of NASCAR's problems in this here thread.
Some of this is not as hard as people make it, but you have to be willing to do what you think is RIGHT, not necessarily what might be in your own personal interest. That goes for NASCAR, the tracks, the TV networks, EVERYBODY. Do the right thing all the time every time and most of your problems take care of themselves.
 

LewTheShoe

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What we have now is, in my opinion, ridiculously stupid that you could have 2 of your top 4 drivers in points, potentially not even make the "playoffs" and compete for the championship. But then you have drivers like Cindric and Briscoe who haven't done **** the rest of the year following their 1 win in the "playoffs"
You're just reiterating your view that the flat, near linear Nascar points scale captures everything that matters. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But a points scale like that under-rewards finishing up front and is too generous for guys in the midfield, relative to the accomplishment it is to win versus run mid pack.

Also, I don't think the examples you cite really support your allegiance to Nascar's points system, whether Latford or the current scale. Do you think you could find even one driver or crew chief in the Nascar garage who would choose to have Martin Truex's 2022 race results rather than having Austin Cindric's results? I mean totally ignore who is in the playoffs... just look at results from 23 races and tell me the 19 team has done more than the 2. You couldn't find such a driver or crew chief, I'd be willing to bet.

AUSTIN CINDRICMARTIN TRUEX, JR.
Head-to-Head
11 wins​
12 wins​
Actual Race Stats
Race Wins
1
(Daytona 500)​
0​
Top 5's
4​
3​
Top 10's
7​
10​
Avg. Finish
16.5​
13.3​

And BTW, I share your disdain for the bash 'em & crash 'em ethos that some fans crave and Nascar seems to encourage, but that's a discussion for a different thread. It's not a new thing.
 

jaqua19

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What do people think of the stat "driver rating", and it's usefulness in determining performance/results within the context of the current format?

IIRC correctly, it factors in top 15s, passes, fastest laps, results(?)

Lew would remember that more than me. But if I understand correctly, it seems most pieces of it's formula are more dependent on factors that would contribute moreso towards a full season/Winston Cup format.

That said, I've always felt the driver rating is a good indicator of if the format's champion was fairly crowned. And generally speaking, I've felt that any sort of similarities between driver ranking order and final points standing order is indicative of a fairly good points format. I felt this was true for both Winston Cup and Chase Formats - if the final points standing results are similar to the final order of driver rating, we probably have a fair format.

It's useful. But now, I can't help but feel like within the context of the playoff format, that stat is a bit outdated and no longer a useful indicator of who *deserves* a playoff spot.

Curious about what others think about this.



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Charlie Spencer

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What do people think of the stat "driver rating", and it's usefulness in determining performance/results within the context of the current format?
Not much. If I wanted rating and rankings, I'd watch college ball. Finishing position is the only stat that counts.
 

RHRFan#1

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You're just reiterating your view that the flat, near linear Nascar points scale captures everything that matters. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But a points scale like that under-rewards finishing up front and is too generous for guys in the midfield, relative to the accomplishment it is to win versus run mid pack.

Also, I don't think the examples you cite really support your allegiance to Nascar's points system, whether Latford or the current scale. Do you think you could find even one driver or crew chief in the Nascar garage who would choose to have Martin Truex's 2022 race results rather than having Austin Cindric's results? I mean totally ignore who is in the playoffs... just look at results from 23 races and tell me the 19 team has done more than the 2. You couldn't find such a driver or crew chief, I'd be willing to bet.

AUSTIN CINDRICMARTIN TRUEX, JR.
Head-to-Head
11 wins​
12 wins​
Actual Race Stats
Race Wins
1
(Daytona 500)​
0​
Top 5's
4​
3​
Top 10's
7​
10​
Avg. Finish
16.5​
13.3​

And BTW, I share your disdain for the bash 'em & crash 'em ethos that some fans crave and Nascar seems to encourage, but that's a discussion for a different thread. It's not a new thing.
Your missing stage points in this comparison which shows how competitive a car was all race long, but I take your point and it's valid. I also was wrong about Cindric, I didn't feel as if he has been that quick all year, but looking at his numbers, he indeed has been. I will admit again there is no perfect points system, only flawed ones. I just prefer the flawed Latford system over the more flawed Playoff system.

My complaint about the bash 'em and crash 'em ethos is indeed not new, but it has been enhanced with this current format used. Just ram your competitor on the final lap and make it to the next round. I just dislike that very much.


 

OldTimer

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the championship moment first and foremost in nearly everyone’s minds is 1992, there has even been a book written about.
For once I totally agree, probably the best example of how a full season championship can come down to one lap and the final out in game 7. The most cerebral, with the combination of skill, luck, and determination all encompassed in a year long struggle against the odds. Not to mention having to use a clandestine media tact to stay under the radar, to keep the establishment from putting a thumb on the scale in the name of a media favorite.
My second favorite championship was 2003. I love blue collar consistency to overcome hyperbole. If I am not mistaken the previous year, Matt won quite a few races but also had more than one bad outcomes due to trying to be the hare, in 2003 they did not want to be the hare.
 

Mispeedway15

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You're just reiterating your view that the flat, near linear Nascar points scale captures everything that matters. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But a points scale like that under-rewards finishing up front and is too generous for guys in the midfield, relative to the accomplishment it is to win versus run mid pack.

Also, I don't think the examples you cite really support your allegiance to Nascar's points system, whether Latford or the current scale. Do you think you could find even one driver or crew chief in the Nascar garage who would choose to have Martin Truex's 2022 race results rather than having Austin Cindric's results? I mean totally ignore who is in the playoffs... just look at results from 23 races and tell me the 19 team has done more than the 2. You couldn't find such a driver or crew chief, I'd be willing to bet.

AUSTIN CINDRICMARTIN TRUEX, JR.
Head-to-Head
11 wins​
12 wins​
Actual Race Stats
Race Wins
1
(Daytona 500)​
0​
Top 5's
4​
3​
Top 10's
7​
10​
Avg. Finish
16.5​
13.3​

And BTW, I share your disdain for the bash 'em & crash 'em ethos that some fans crave and Nascar seems to encourage, but that's a discussion for a different thread. It's not a new thing.
I think the bigger issue with the new format is that it has “auto bids” and I for one cannot think of any sport where auto bids are a great thing. College football outright refuses to do it for this reason as we would not have gotten Alabama and Georgia for the title last year if we had this format. Also college basketball sees a lot of instances where a mediocre team wins a conference tournament and makes it in over the rest of the league in the small conferences
 

jaqua19

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Ya know, it's possible to revert to a championship based on total season points while also replacing the Latford system with something that does a better job of rewarding race winners and front runners. Going back to one doesn't require the other.
I think there's a happy medium somewhere between the playoffs, Chase and total season format.

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Jorge De Guzman

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I think there's a happy medium somewhere between the playoffs, Chase and total season format.

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I would say we do: it’s the system that is currently being used.
 

Zerkfitting

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I mostly like the current playoff format. I'd get rid of win and you're in, give the winner a good point reward. Once a car is eliminated from the playoffs they should return to the normal points pool; I think the teams out of the playoffs should be able to improve their season point standing during the last ten races.
 

Charlie Spencer

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Once a car is eliminated from the playoffs they should return to the normal points pool; I think the teams out of the playoffs should be able to improve their season point standing during the last ten races.
This may be my biggest complaint with the playoff system.
 

StandOnIt

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I'd get rid of win and you're in, give the winner a good point reward. Once a car is eliminated from the playoffs they should return to the normal points pool; I think the teams out of the playoffs should be able to improve their season point standing during the last ten races.
That's the best suggestion I have read, one that would actually create less problems than it solved. It's able to incorporated seamlessly into the existing format and I think it would add some interest.
 

jaqua19

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I would say we do: it’s the system that is currently being used.
A happy medium between 3 separate entities can't be one of the entities.

I personally like the format that I proposed

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Jorge De Guzman

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A happy medium between 3 separate entities can't be one of the entities.

I personally like the format that I proposed

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I'm just numb to the points championship threads on here, of which that are multiple. This playoff system will be here probably for the duration of time, I dont foresee it ever being changed because the networks seem to prefer it and NASCAR came up with the actual idea. I'm just kind of exhausted by the debate over it, I myself wish we used the Winston Cup points championship system but theres no use in pining for it. It's not coming back.
 

Daytripper

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I'm just numb to the points championship threads on here, of which that are multiple. This playoff system will be here probably for the duration of time, I dont foresee it ever being changed because the networks seem to prefer it and NASCAR came up with the actual idea. I'm just kind of exhausted by the debate over it, I myself wish we used the Winston Cup points championship system but theres no use in pining for it. It's not coming back.

Exactly, I hate the DH in the national league, but it is here to stay so there is no sense in complaining about it. Save your complaints for things that actually have a chance of changing.
 

wi_racefan

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The guys on DBC exposed yet another IMO large problem with the current system. Kurt is in the playoffs right now, whether he competes in any of the last 10 races or not based on his Nascar waiver. Now I understand that he would like to come back and race all 10, but theoretically he can come back at any point in the playoffs and race for 5th.

Also if he decides to he can waive his playoff eligibility if he knows he'll be out of the car for any or all of the playoffs. Now where things get really ugly is he could do it before race 1 of the playoffs, which right now would let the #19 in unless someone else wins this weekend, but if someone else wins Kurt likely wouldn't give it up to let a non-Toyota into the playoffs, which would be the #12. So potentially Kurt could compete in zero playoff races and just take the 16th place in standings.

I just hope Kurt comes back next week and we don't have to deal with any of this manipulation.........
 

wi_racefan

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Sounds like the guys on DBC need lives.
Actually they weren't the ones that initially brought up the scenario, they said who did but I can't remember. Either way honestly it brings up some pretty legitimate questions when it comes to the playoffs.
 

Charlie Spencer

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Now I understand that he would like to come back and race all 10, but theoretically he can come back at any point in the playoffs and race for 5th.
He needs a waiver for not running all the races. Right now, he had no eligibility to waive. Until a waiver is officially granted, he’s currently ineligible for not running all races. If he can’t demonstrate he can drive, a waiver won’t be issued.
 

wi_racefan

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He needs a waiver for not running all the races. Right now, he had no eligibility to waive. Until a waiver is officially granted, he’s currently ineligible for not running all races. If he can’t demonstrate he can drive, a waiver won’t be issued.
Did they not already come out and say he would be getting a medical wavier?
 

Charlie Spencer

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Did they not already come out and say he would be getting a medical wavier?
Did they? You tell me. And if they did, saying he’ll be getting one is the same as actually granting it. They’re not going to give it to him if he can’t drive.

I guarantee if he misses the first playoff race, they won’t give a waiver at all, so the ‘racing for 5th’ notion won’t happen. If he misses Darlington, 16 eligible drivers will start and compete for ten weeks. If / when he returns, he’ll be back with the rest running for 17th; they won’t bump someone out to put him in.
 

wi_racefan

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The non-answer answer. Guy would fit in here ... 😇

So basically we hope Kurt comes back so we don't have to make a decision.....

Part of me would love to see him back, but the other part says if there's any concerns about future health just hang it up. Can still bring a lot to the sport from the broadcast side.
 

StandOnIt

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Why would they say what they are going to do? There is two freakin races left before that has to be addressed. Leave the aspiring gerbils in the dark and Kurt time to heal.
 

AdoubleU24

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Obviously since Chase has a basically insurmountable points lead I think the system should change and he should be crowned champion for the 2nd time 😎

I'm seriousness, I like the playoff format a lot more than I thought I ever would when it was first announced. It's made for some fantastic moments (Gordon at Martinsville and JJ #7 even tho that was a total sham imo lol). It does suck when things don't go your way and your guys falls below the cut and out of contention (like any other sport), but until that happens it gives everyone the chance to be a hero and that's what the playoffs are all about in sports.
 

Hawaii808

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I have never thought Goodyear made particularly good tires for the road OR the race track, and I think Michelin could EASILY do a better job for NASCAR.
When I need to replace factory tires on my vehicles, it’s straight to Michelin, no stop.
 

Charlie Spencer

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Yeah I have no idea why someone would need a "performance" tire unless they're snows.

Coming from someone who walks into the tire shop and asks for the best snow tires money can buy, LOL.
I run the speed limit, on pavement, don't tow anything, coast up to the light whenever possible, and it doesn't snow here. Brand X tires have been good enough for me so far.
 
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