What Do you Think of the New Package?

StandOnIt said:
To me the package didn't do anything different at Dover.
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The one thing I notice that is different, and not just at Dover, is that there is basically no slipping and sliding around anymore. The cars are planted to the track and it seems a lot easier to catch the car if it gets turned sideways by contact with another car.
 
StandOnIt said:
you need to tell me what Joey is thinking. o_O
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I would love to know what Joey was thinking when he was mired in a whirlwind of dirty air after winning Stage 1.

Speak honestly on the package Joey, don't hold anything back.
 
BobbyFord said:
https://autoweek.com/article/nascar/nascar-drivers-team-owner-slam-package-dover-it-sucks
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I was about to link to this article because for those who care about the specifics, Weaver has tracked down some numbers in comparison to last year's package.

A constant refrain from drivers is a complaint about the eight-inch tall spoiler that creates a wake of dirty air when a leading car turns in the corner. A trailing car runs into that wake and stalls out, stifling passing opportunities.

Last year's package generated roughly 1,500 pounds. The new package doubles that, punching a much larger hole in the air as a result. If last year's car lost 25 percent of its downforce behind another car, that's 375 pounds. This season, with a much larger wake, a trailing car is losing what teams estimate as 30 percent of its overall downforce and 900 pounds. That has made clean air more important than ever before.
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Many observers seem to focus solely on the spoiler, disregarding the changes made to the splitter and radiator pan that added a large amount of front downforce.

NASCAR should have learned their lesson about high downforce during the 2016 experiments.
 
gnomesayin said:
Many observers seem to focus solely on the spoiler, disregarding the changes made to the splitter and radiator pan that added a large amount of front downforce.
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The splitter and pan are far less effective when turbulent air is spilling off the leading car. That air does not “attach” to the boundary layer on the following car like the clean air in the wind tunnel does.
 
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LouieLouie said:
The one thing I notice that is different, and not just at Dover, is that there is basically no slipping and sliding around anymore. The cars are planted to the track and it seems a lot easier to catch the car if it gets turned sideways by contact with another car.
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I commented on that back at Cali, and the resulting decrease in cautions.
 
Every race is being looked at and critiqued by NASCAR. We are 12 races in and if modifications need to be made Im sure NASCAR wont be against it. With that being said, you dont need drivers and owners whining in public and hurting the sport, we are having a hard enough time as it is and its not like NASCAR isnt trying to help. Like I said earlier, start hitting them in the wallet, hard.
 
aunty dive said:
The splitter and pan are far less effective when turbulent air is spilling off the leading car. That air does not “attach” to the boundary layer on the following car like the clean air in the wind tunnel does.
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This is in line with my understanding, which I don't claim to be on par with yours. The issue as I see it is that the greater the disparity between the downforce levels produced in clean air vs. turbulent air, the more clean air is at a premium. I'm aware that physical reality places clean air at an advantage regardless, but the problem is furthered by designing more downforce into the cars at both ends.
 
LouieLouie said:
The one thing I notice that is different, and not just at Dover, is that there is basically no slipping and sliding around anymore. The cars are planted to the track and it seems a lot easier to catch the car if it gets turned sideways by contact with another car.
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I started this thread after Atlanta with this same idea:

As far as air-goes...the cars were super stable today even in a pack. I think this was evident by no accidents due to on-track crashes. I miss cars being lose....Speaking of lose...Kyle Larson should have spun that car out today early on with that incredible save. Car or driver?? Obviously both but I feel like had he been in last year's car he would've wrecked...stable cars and close racing but I miss these guys being on the edge.
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Easy cars to drive means fewer cautions. Fewer cautions means less less opportunities for strategy, and more strung-out fields, and leads to what racing shouldn't be: Predictability

MTJ had that one in the bag with 100 laps to go. That's a major problem. What sets NASCAR apart from other sports is it isn't over til the last lap. In baseball a 10 run lead by a team in the third inning is a lost-cause. In football a 28-7 score after three quarters makes the fourth moot. There's too many factors in NASCAR to make a race a "blowout"...but now that the cars are 99% reliable, tires are rock hard, and cars can't get lose and scrape the wall...it's pretty hard to lose a race now.
 
From the same article.
Overall, the race featured the second most green flag passes and the third most quality passes in the last six seasons. But much of those numbers are inflated by green flag pit stops and restarts in which drivers stay side-by-side, triggering a 'pass' everytime a nose inches in front of another.

Don't really see how you can have less cautions and the numbers be inflated in comparison. Hard to figure unless you look at when the other cautions fell on green flag stops. Did they have green flag pit stops or not and with more cautions in the other races it's conceivable they had more opportunity for green flag passing. Like I said I didn't see very much difference this year than others. Dover isn't a place that generates exciting racing. That being said the racing in stage two was excellent. More racing than usually happens at Dover.
 
Speedbowl14 said:
Easy cars to drive means fewer cautions. Fewer cautions means less less opportunities for strategy, and more strung-out fields, and leads to what racing shouldn't be: Predictability

MTJ had that one in the bag with 100 laps to go. That's a major problem. What sets NASCAR apart from other sports is it isn't over til the last lap. In baseball a 10 run lead by a team in the third inning is a lost-cause. In football a 28-7 score after three quarters makes the fourth moot. There's too many factors in NASCAR to make a race a "blowout"...but now that the cars are 99% reliable, tires are rock hard, and cars can't get lose and scrape the wall...it's pretty hard to lose a race now.
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Kevin Harvick last year led over 200 laps and won by almost seven and a half seconds. And your point is? The other major leader was Keselowski 108 laps. Screw stick n ball comparisons.
 
Spotter22 said:
Every race is being looked at and critiqued by NASCAR. We are 12 races in and if modifications need to be made Im sure NASCAR wont be against it. With that being said, you dont need drivers and owners whining in public and hurting the sport, we are having a hard enough time as it is and its not like NASCAR isnt trying to help. Like I said earlier, start hitting them in the wallet, hard.
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Based on the past decade I’m not confident that NASCAR will step up and address driver criticism concerning the new package.
Bowman finished 2nd and also complained about difficulty passing and the importance of clean air.
It took many embarrassing qualifying broadcasts and a plethora of social media backlash before NASCAR addressed the issues with group/knockout qualifying.
 
BobbyFord said:
Based on the past decade I’m not confident that NASCAR will step up and address driver criticism concerning the new package.
Bowman finished 2nd and also complained about difficulty passing and the importance of clean air.
It took many embarrassing qualifying broadcasts and a plethora of social media backlash before NASCAR addressed the issues with group/knockout qualifying.
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The drivers should be embarrassed how they acted during qualifying. Jim France needs to start operating under the Bill France business plan, do as I say or kick rocks.
 
Speedbowl14 said:
I started this thread after Atlanta with this same idea:



Easy cars to drive means fewer cautions. Fewer cautions means less less opportunities for strategy, and more strung-out fields, and leads to what racing shouldn't be: Predictability

MTJ had that one in the bag with 100 laps to go. That's a major problem. What sets NASCAR apart from other sports is it isn't over til the last lap. In baseball a 10 run lead by a team in the third inning is a lost-cause. In football a 28-7 score after three quarters makes the fourth moot. There's too many factors in NASCAR to make a race a "blowout"...but now that the cars are 99% reliable, tires are rock hard, and cars can't get lose and scrape the wall...it's pretty hard to lose a race now.
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This race wasnt over until the last lap.
 
BobbyFord said:
Based on the past decade I’m not confident that NASCAR will step up and address driver criticism concerning the new package.
Bowman finished 2nd and also complained about difficulty passing and the importance of clean air.
It took many embarrassing qualifying broadcasts and a plethora of social media backlash before NASCAR addressed the issues with group/knockout qualifying.
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There’s no need to treat fans like they are stupid, a great deal of us see the package and don’t like it for whatever reason. It just kind of stinks that many went in with preconceived notions, and used anything to hate it. I’m still on the fence, it’s not my cup of tea but I wanted to give it until the playoffs to make a determination. Watching the last stage of the race on DVR, Truex just pulled away. There weren’t many battles through the field as earlier in the race. Seems to me once tires wear, cars can’t pass as easily...whether that’s aero or extreme tire wear I think it remains to be seen. I just feel like clean air at some tracks is just as important this year as others in the past and we were told that wasn’t going to be the case when they went to this. As for the drivers such as Harvick or KDB taking a verbal dump on this package I have no problem with it. It’s their livelihood and they want it to succeed, I have great respect for them they arnt Blatantly lying to us.
 
Spotter22 said:
The drivers should be embarrassed how they acted during qualifying. Jim France needs to start operating under the Bill France business plan, do as I say or kick rocks.
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The drivers knew the rules and acted accordingly. They did what they needed to do to get them the best starting position. Hate the game, not the player.
 
BobbyFord said:
The drivers knew the rules and acted accordingly. They did what they needed to do to get them the best starting position. Hate the game, not the player.
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Not making a qualifying attempt is not acting accordingly
 
Snappy D said:
There’s no need to treat fans like they are stupid, a great deal of us see the package and don’t like it for whatever reason. It just kind of stinks that many went in with preconceived notions, and used anything to hate it. I’m still on the fence, it’s not my cup of tea but I wanted to give it until the playoffs to make a determination. Watching the last stage of the race on DVR, Truex just pulled away. There weren’t many battles through the field as earlier in the race. Seems to me once tires wear, cars can’t pass as easily...whether that’s aero or extreme tire wear I think it remains to be seen. I just feel like clean air at some tracks is just as important this year as others in the past and we were told that wasn’t going to be the case when they went to this. As for the drivers such as Harvick or KDB taking a verbal dump on this package I have no problem with it. It’s their livelihood and they want it to succeed, I have great respect for them they arnt Blatantly lying to us.
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and Truex blew the back tires off of it. I'm not ruling out that Pearn and company are up to something. They had to start in the back. All of them have had enough time to figure out the packages. The Hendrick cars have figured out something, they were good today.
 
BobbyFord said:
NASCAR new it was BS and finally made the correct change back to single car qualifying.
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Like I said, they need to go back to the Bill France model and run the show and show the competitors they dont.
 
BobbyFord said:
It’s never going back to the Bill France days. They have to fix what we have now.
IMO, the current race package is a step in the wrong direction.
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Yes, I know as far as Going back, but I disagree with the package being in the wrong direction. I think we will see it reviewed and tweaked
 
Spotter22 said:
Every race is being looked at and critiqued by NASCAR. We are 12 races in and if modifications need to be made Im sure NASCAR wont be against it. With that being said, you dont need drivers and owners whining in public and hurting the sport, we are having a hard enough time as it is and its not like NASCAR isnt trying to help. Like I said earlier, start hitting them in the wallet, hard.
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The whining already resulted in a positive change back to single car qualifying. If there's no whining and public outcry, then NASCAR feels everything is hunky dory and goes about their business. Bad public optics is one of the very few things that gets to them. It's the exact same with the package. If the general consensus is that everyone is good with it then why would they change? Yet, you want to silence and hit driver's and owner's that have a direct interest in the sport succeeding in the wallet hard, they are voicing their displeasure for a reason, they feel it is not improving the sport. Are fans supposed to stow their thoughts if they think it is detrimental as well?

I don't trust NASCAR to make the necessary changes without some outside pressure. If they wanted an extended experimentation session, then they needed to poney up the dough, and run more mock races than they did to perfect their product, not use an entire season to figure out it isn't good. That's a pretty sure fire way to turn off a percentage of your fanbase, and a very large reason of why they have the problems they have.
 
Turtle84 said:
The whining already resulted in a positive change back to single car qualifying. If there's no whining and public outcry, then NASCAR feels everything is hunky dory and goes about their business. Bad public optics is one of the very few things that gets to them. It's the exact same with the package. If the general consensus is that everyone is good with it then why would they change? Yet, you want to silence and hit driver's and owner's that have a direct interest in the sport succeeding in the wallet hard, they are voicing their displeasure for a reason, they feel it is not improving the sport. Are fans supposed to stow their thoughts if they think it is detrimental as well?

I don't trust NASCAR to make the necessary changes without some outside pressure. If they wanted an extended experimentation session, then they needed to poney up the dough, and run more mock races than they did to perfect their product, not use an entire season to figure out it isn't good. That's a pretty sure fire way to turn off a percentage of your fanbase, and a very large reason of why they have the problems they have.
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You completely missed the point and mis represented what I said, they can talk in private, there is absolutely no good that comes from public degradation of the sport. Nobody said to "silence" anyone. They can feel free to speak all they want with NASCAR. The biggest problem NASCAR faces today is somehow we have a fan base that thinks we are gonna have side by side races every lap and photo finishes every week. The expectations of todays casual fans are ridiculous and they will never see it come to fruition.
 
Spotter22 said:
You completely missed the point and mis represented what I said, they can talk in private, there is absolutely no good that comes from public degradation of the sport. Nobody said to "silence" anyone. They can feel free to speak all they want with NASCAR. The biggest problem NASCAR faces today is somehow we have a fan base that thinks we are gonna have side by side races every lap and photo finishes every week. The expectations of todays casual fans are ridiculous and they will never see it come to fruition.
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Feel free to speak all you want, but only good things okay? I haven't silenced you, you can still talk, but only good things okay?
 
Turtle84 said:
Feel free to speak all you want, but only good things okay? I haven't silenced you, you can still talk, but only good things okay?
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Again, totally mis represented what I said. If you have concerns making statements to the media dropping F bombs like the 10 year old in the 18 does it should be a fineable offense, if he said it to Steve Odonnel not so much. You think the NFL is gonna let a player run his mouth about officials? Hell no and NASCAR should be protective of its brand in the same way.
 
I love how some take credit for the changes and think that Nascar did what they said, when any goof could tell that for the 1.5's it wasn't working. That being said they now think they can whine about everything and they use cryle as their rallying cry. The guy using the F word in public is pitiful and degrades the sport.
 
StandOnIt said:
I love how some take credit for the changes and think that Nascar did what they said, when any goof could tell that for the 1.5's it wasn't working. That being said they now think they can whine about everything and they use cryle as their rallying cry. The guy using the F word in public is pitiful and degrades the sport.
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But he does a lot for charity.
 
Spotter22 said:
Again, totally mis represented what I said. If you have concerns making statements to the media dropping F bombs like the 10 year old in the 18 does it should be a fineable offense, if he said it to Steve Odonnel not so much. You think the NFL is gonna let a player run his mouth about officials? Hell no and NASCAR should be protective of its brand in the same way.
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Apologies. Is it any derogatory statements about our package publicly, and we're going to nail you with a fine?

The most effective way for NASCAR to protect it's brand would be to cease making unnecessary changes and undo bad changes that they have already made. Then they will shut up a good portion of complaining. Until they do that, it will continue. Censorship is not the answer.
 
The sport is fine. Those in charge treating it like shallow entertainment may have degraded it some, but it persists and will continue to for decades to come. One driver's sour personality doesn't degrade anything but himself. The substance of his opinions about the package are completely correct. It has been foolish and misguided since the moment it was hatched.
 
gnomesayin said:
The sport is fine. Those in charge treating it like shallow entertainment may have degraded it some, but it persists and will continue to for decades to come. One driver's sour personality doesn't degrade anything but himself. The substance of his opinions about the package are completely correct. It has been foolish and misguided since the moment it was hatched.
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The sport is not fine, we are at the proverbial crossroads and how we got here now is irrelevant.I'm not saying its totally going away but the lanscape could change dramatically. NASCAR is trying to "fix" it and its going to take everyone working together and one of our top drivers speaking on a Nationwide radio program and using profanity isnt going to help us at all. Sorry, but just the way I see it.
 
I was thinking this morning what if NASCAR went back the other way in terms of a car with low downforce and high horsepower with no spacers? How would the car react in traffic? Would racing go back to what people seemed to like in 13,14 and 15? Someone educate me, I want to understand how all that works
 
Snappy D said:
I was thinking this morning what if NASCAR went back the other way in terms of a car with low downforce and high horsepower with no spacers? How would the car react in traffic? Would racing go back to what people seemed to like in 13,14 and 15? Someone educate me, I want to understand how all that works
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I'm confused with what people want. I'll tell you this, the racing in the years you mentioned isnt any better then what we see today yet somehow its better? Not.
 
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