What should Chads penalty be CHEATING AGAIN?

FenderBumper said:
Here ya' go, Bucky....

"Streamlining the contours of the CAR, beyond that approved by the Series Director, will not be permitted. ... If, in the judgment of NASCAR officials, any part or component of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that has been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance will not be permitted."

......I don't see 'BODY' specified, so without a link, I'll assume you pulled that out of some portable dark place.
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o_O
 
Dwayne said:
I'm really suprised by how many here seem to think zero tolerance applies to a car before it hits the track, this is just absurd you can't penalize a car before it hits the track! If a car fails pre inspection simply send them home fix the car then come back, the end. Seriously what happens if a new small team makes an honest mistake, they take the car to the track it fails inspection and before they even run their first race they are fined into bankruptsy, this could happen.
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Another great question Dwayne ,and far too complicated for me to comment on. That said, there are two things that occur to me. First ,given the amount of rules and templates, I think most any of us could bring a car to the track that is within the rules.What the smart guys do is try to find ways to bring a car to the track that has an aero advantage over everyone else , but still somehow fits within their interpretation of the rules. The second point I would make is that anyone can run ideas past Nascar days or weeks before a race without penalty . Nascar will check and certify a car before the body goes on,and again when it gets to the track,and again before it races and again after it races . They find stuff all the time , but not from cars that are trying to stay within the rules.
 
ted@economy said:
Another great question Dwayne ,and far too complicated for me to comment on. That said, there are two things that occur to me. First ,given the amount of rules and templates, I think most any of us could bring a car to the track that is within the rules.What the smart guys do is try to find ways to bring a car to the track that has an aero advantage over everyone else , but still somehow fits within their interpretation of the rules. The second point I would make is that anyone can run ideas past Nascar days or weeks before a race without penalty . Nascar will check and certify a car before the body goes on,and again when it gets to the track,and again before it races and again after it races . They find stuff all the time , but not from cars that are trying to stay within the rules.
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Thank you for the reply, ah yes you've hit the nail on the head...interpretation... I don't think the 48 team set out to cheat they found something that fit their interpretation of the rule book, nascar didn't like it and sent them packing and tried to penalize them, thankfully cooler heads prevailed and they were just slapped with a fine which I think is wrong as well but it's better then nothing.
 
Dwayne said:
Thank you for the reply, ah yes you've hit the nail on the head...interpretation... I don't think the 48 team set out to cheat they found something that fit their interpretation of the rule book, nascar didn't like it and sent them packing and tried to penalize them, thankfully cooler heads prevailed and they were just slapped with a fine which I think is wrong as well but it's better then nothing.
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:XXROFL:
 
Dwayne said:
Thank you for the reply, ah yes you've hit the nail on the head...interpretation... I don't think the 48 team set out to cheat they found something that fit their interpretation of the rule book, nascar didn't like it and sent them packing and tried to penalize them, thankfully cooler heads prevailed and they were just slapped with a fine which I think is wrong as well but it's better then nothing.
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That's the problem right there. NASCAR can't set the rule as "the car must fit the template", then decide they don't like it when the body does fit. NASCAR seems to be saying that the C-covers are supplied by the manufacturer and shouldn't be manipulated, then stood there while HMS cut and shaped the new covers so they fit the opening.

Vague gets you in the kind of situation NASCAR found themselves with Middlebrook. It seems to me NASCAR decided HMS didn't follow the 'spirit' of the rules, and the first appeal board agreed. Perhaps Middlebrook felt that no such 'spirit of the rules' culture ever existed in NASCAR. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
 
FenderBumper said:
Vague gets you in the kind of situation NASCAR found themselves with Middlebrook. It seems to me NASCAR decided HMS didn't follow the 'spirit' of the rules, and the first appeal board agreed. Perhaps Middlebrook felt that no such 'spirit of the rules' culture ever existed in NASCAR. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
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But then again, the fine was upheld. I can on speculate as we really don't have any facts whatsoever on this. There are a bunch of opinions but I've never read or heard anything that was presented through the appeals process. If anyone has a link to what evidence existed, I'd like to read it. I think that Middlebrook had an issue with the way NASCAR handled the issue more than anything, yet it was still found that HMS was in violation of the rules. Without an explanation from someone involved in the process, I can't believe otherwise. How the heck can anyone explain why the entire penalty wasn't reversed if all was OK? That's the part I don't get.

As far as being able to fine them before the car was even on the track..... That part doesn't bother me at all. The car was presented for inspection. If it's presented for inspection then I'm assuming that the team intends on running it on the track.
 
If it's presented for inspection then I'm assuming that the team intends on running it on the track.
 
FenderBumper said:
That's the problem right there. NASCAR can't set the rule as "the car must fit the template", then decide they don't like it when the body does fit. NASCAR seems to be saying that the C-covers are supplied by the manufacturer and shouldn't be manipulated, then stood there while HMS cut and shaped the new covers so they fit the opening.

Vague gets you in the kind of situation NASCAR found themselves with Middlebrook. It seems to me NASCAR decided HMS didn't follow the 'spirit' of the rules, and the first appeal board agreed. Perhaps Middlebrook felt that no such 'spirit of the rules' culture ever existed in NASCAR. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
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Right and lets not forget the 48 fit the template, what they tried to do to me was brilliant but that's besides the point. Sorry but I don't think there should have been any penalty at all. Nascar should have just said "um no you don't, fix it and try again"
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
But then again, the fine was upheld. I can on speculate as we really don't have any facts whatsoever on this. There are a bunch of opinions but I've never read or heard anything that was presented through the appeals process. If anyone has a link to what evidence existed, I'd like to read it. I think that Middlebrook had an issue with the way NASCAR handled the issue more than anything, yet it was still found that HMS was in violation of the rules. Without an explanation from someone involved in the process, I can't believe otherwise. How the heck can anyone explain why the entire penalty wasn't reversed if all was OK? That's the part I don't get.

As far as being able to fine them before the car was even on the track..... That part doesn't bother me at all. The car was presented for inspection. If it's presented for inspection then I'm assuming that the team intends on running it on the track.
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I remember reading that Rick brought documentation from a past inspector that the C-covers were inspected and approved, then he had a bunch of photo's and documents showing they were never changed after that approval.

There's plenty of reasons for a thinking person to wonder about all of this, because the media is usually too lame to ask the right questions and when they do, NASCAR sidesteps. A change to the wording of that rule might confirm that it's what Middlebrook had a problem with, but we'll never hear about it if it does happen. I'm sure these memo changes to the rule book are even harder to come by than the book itself.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
As far as being able to fine them before the car was even on the track..... That part doesn't bother me at all. The car was presented for inspection. If it's presented for inspection then I'm assuming that the team intends on running it on the track.
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I've heard that on the entry form sent in for each race it's wrtten that you must enter a car meeting NASCAR rules and thats why a car is considered under inspection from the moment it's unloaded at the track. In the past there was more than one car told to just go home, now that things have become so political and Big money you have appeals and lawyers involved :(
 
FlFlash said:
I've heard that on the entry form sent in for each race it's wrtten that you must enter a car meeting NASCAR rules and thats why a car is considered under inspection from the moment it's unloaded at the track. In the past there was more than one car told to just go home, now that things have become so political and Big money you have appeals and lawyers involved :(
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I understood, that there would be no lawyers in the appeal process.
 
MOEJOE said:
Sounds like communisim to me. ;)
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Lets see. One family rules all with total authority. Power is passed from one ruler to his son. Over time, inbreeding starts to erode the quality of the rulers.

Sounds like an old style British monarchy to me. ;)
 
FenderBumper said:
Lets see. One family rules all with total authority. Power is passed from one ruler to his son. Over time, inbreeding starts to erode the quality of the rulers.

Sounds like an old style British monarchy to me. ;)
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It's worked fantastic so far . A lot of other motorsports ventures have not been so successful. Go Brian!
 
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