Will Larson top Gordon's 1998 season?

Potentially can match and top JJ's 07 season. Both impressive in their own right.

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Turtle84 said:
He'll come up a tad short on win totals, but Wow what a dominating season hope he gets #10 at Phoenix, they deserve the championship.
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It’s a dominating season, but in reference to the post title, Gordon did more with 3 less races on the season. And honestly, it’s not that close.

13 wins to 9 (with a potential for 11)
26 top 5s to 19 (with a potential for 21)
28 top 10s to 26 (with a potential for 28)

Gordon held the points lead 20 times, including for 18 consecutive races. Larson has held the points lead 11 times, with a potential for 13.

Not just 1998, but Gordon’s level of statistical dominance from 1995 to 2005 is unmatched in the modern era.
 
Snappy D said:
gosh what JG did in 98 really stands the test of time doesnt it?
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I think it will stand for all time. The chances NASCAR shortens the season by a few races is slim to none and I’m not sure the competition gets so tight again. Jeff dominated against legends of the sport like Dale Earnhardt Sr., Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Mark Martin, and the Labonte brothers.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
It’s a dominating season, but in reference to the post title, Gordon did more with 3 less races on the season. And honestly, it’s not that close.

13 wins to 9 (with a potential for 11)
26 top 5s to 19 (with a potential for 21)
28 top 10s to 26 (with a potential for 28)

Gordon held the points lead 20 times, including for 18 consecutive races. Larson has held the points lead 11 times, with a potential for 13.

Not just 1998, but Gordon’s level of statistical dominance from 1995 to 2005 is unmatched in the modern era.
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I think it was 95-01, no? 2002 is when his statical dominance ended. The 10 year stretch is unmatched as a whole, but from 2002-2005, pre prime Johnson was superior statistically across the board. Avg pts finish, wins, top 5s, top 10s, avg finish, head to head finishes.

I think Stewart was too. I have to check that...

It's a wash. Gordon finished ahead of Stewart 8 more times, had 3 more wins, but less top 5s, 10s and an avg finish.

It was Gordon's dominance in such a short period of time, that stands out to me. 95-01 is just downright STUPID.

But he was THE dominant driver of the cup series really for only a 7 season stretch. I personally cap it after 01, since Gordon never had any multi season stretch as the premiere driver of the series anymore post 01.

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jaqua19 said:
I think it was 95-01, no? 2002 is when his statical dominance ended. The 10 year stretch is unmatched as a whole, but from 2002-2005, pre prime Johnson was superior statistically across the board. Avg pts finish, wins, top 5s, top 10s, avg finish, head to head finishes.

I think Stewart was too. I have to check that...

It's a wash. Gordon finished ahead of Stewart 8 more times, had 3 more wins, but less top 5s, 10s and an avg finish.

It was Gordon's dominance in such a short period of time, that stands out to me. 95-01 is just downright STUPID.

But he was THE dominant driver of the cup series really for only a 7 season stretch. I personally cap it after 01, since Gordon never had any multi season stretch as the premiere driver of the series anymore post 01.

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Jeff's 04, 07 seasons would have been championship worthy if it wasnt for.... well you know. He really fell off after 08, he was still a Chase driver but nothing like he was in the early party of the 00's. The resurgence in 14 was also pretty amazing, never thought he'd contend again.
 
jaqua19 said:
I think it was 95-01, no? 2002 is when his statical dominance ended. The 10 year stretch is unmatched as a whole, but from 2002-2005, pre prime Johnson was superior statistically across the board. Avg pts finish, wins, top 5s, top 10s, avg finish, head to head finishes.

I think Stewart was too. I have to check that...

It's a wash. Gordon finished ahead of Stewart 8 more times, had 3 more wins, but less top 5s, 10s and an avg finish.

It was Gordon's dominance in such a short period of time, that stands out to me. 95-01 is just downright STUPID.

But he was THE dominant driver of the cup series really for only a 7 season stretch. I personally cap it after 01, since Gordon never had any multi season stretch as the premiere driver of the series anymore post 01.

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From 2002 to 2005, the man won 15 races. That alone still puts him at 54th in total NASCAR wins, ahead of 144 other drivers. Not to mention finishing in the top 5 in points in 2002, 2003, and 2004.

I saved you more stats by stopping at 2005. If you want, we could easily include up to 2007. After that is when his statistical drop happened. And a statistical drop for Jeff Gordon is many a driver’s dream career.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
From 2002 to 2005, the man won 15 races. That alone still puts him at 54th in total NASCAR wins, ahead of 144 other drivers. Not to mention finishing in the top 5 in points in 2002, 2003, and 2004.

I saved you more stats by stopping at 2005. If you want, we could easily include up to 2007. After that is when his statistical drop happened. And a statistical drop for Jeff Gordon is many a driver’s dream career.
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For sure. But you capped at 05, and I'm just saying he stopped being THE most dominant driver after 01. Was still top 3, which as you said, is a drop most would dream of. But his peak is clearly 95-01, with a slow, gentle decline from 02-06, last hoo-rar in 07, then a decline.

And one last hoo-rar again in 14, but Brad K happened.

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Snappy D said:
Jeff's 04, 07 seasons would have been championship worthy if it wasnt for.... well you know. He really fell off after 08, he was still a Chase driver but nothing like he was in the early party of the 00's. The resurgence in 14 was also pretty amazing, never thought he'd contend again.
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07 would have, but 04 wouldn't have been definitive. He woulda won by what, 50? That's what, 10-12 positions? With a full season format, I doubt the 48 dogs it in August and finishes 30th every week like they did because of blown engines. Saving just one of those 3 consecutive races of blown engines into a top 20 finish would have been enough to edge out Gordon that year. 07 was definitely a blowout though.

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jaqua19 said:
I think it was 95-01, no? 2002 is when his statical dominance ended. The 10 year stretch is unmatched as a whole, but from 2002-2005, pre prime Johnson was superior statistically across the board. Avg pts finish, wins, top 5s, top 10s, avg finish, head to head finishes.

I think Stewart was too. I have to check that...

It's a wash. Gordon finished ahead of Stewart 8 more times, had 3 more wins, but less top 5s, 10s and an avg finish.

It was Gordon's dominance in such a short period of time, that stands out to me. 95-01 is just downright STUPID.

But he was THE dominant driver of the cup series really for only a 7 season stretch. I personally cap it after 01, since Gordon never had any multi season stretch as the premiere driver of the series anymore post 01.

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It almost seems like even though he did win in 01 and was still great, losing Sr affected Gordon, with having the long standing rivalry etc. He was never quite the same in future years.
 
hmmm298 said:
It almost seems like even though he did win in 01 and was still great, losing Sr affected Gordon, with having the long standing rivalry etc. He was never quite the same in future years.
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Personally I think this started it. I also think he took a hell of a lot harder licks later in his career than he did at the beginning and it took its toll.
 
Snappy D said:
Personally I think this started it. I also think he took a hell of a lot harder licks later in his career than he did at the beginning and it took its toll.
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This, his Charlotte wreck, his Watkins Glen wreck, and his Vegas wreck.
 
Snappy D said:
gosh what JG did in 98 really stands the test of time doesnt it?
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The REALLY amazing thing about that season was the second half of that season.

After June 6th, he finished out of the top 5 ONE time, and that was a 7th.
17 straight top 5 finishes, and 19 of 20. 17 of those were top 3's.
Not only did he win four in a row in that stretch, he also had a run of three consecutive 2nd place finishes.

I personally don't think we will ever see that dominant of a stretch ever again.
 
jaqua19 said:
I think it was 95-01, no? 2002 is when his statical dominance ended. The 10 year stretch is unmatched as a whole, but from 2002-2005, pre prime Johnson was superior statistically across the board. Avg pts finish, wins, top 5s, top 10s, avg finish, head to head finishes.

I think Stewart was too. I have to check that...

It's a wash. Gordon finished ahead of Stewart 8 more times, had 3 more wins, but less top 5s, 10s and an avg finish.

It was Gordon's dominance in such a short period of time, that stands out to me. 95-01 is just downright STUPID.

But he was THE dominant driver of the cup series really for only a 7 season stretch. I personally cap it after 01, since Gordon never had any multi season stretch as the premiere driver of the series anymore post 01.

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Click to expand...

For me, it was never quite the same once Ray Evernham left in late 1999. After that, the 24 went from being THE car, to just one OF the top cars. The question will always be whether Jeff and Ray could have kept the success track going much longer. Sadly, I think that was a comet that had just about burned itself out.
Add to that age, a divorce, a new marriage, kids, injuries and having Robbie Loomis and Steve Letarte as crew chiefs (both great guys that I am higher on than most, but never the equal of Ray) and the real question might be how he stayed relevant as long as he did.
 
NASCAR became more competitive after his 90s dominance. Other drivers caught up to him even if he is one of the goats of the sport.
 
Formerjackman said:
For me, it was never quite the same once Ray Evernham left in late 1999. After that, the 24 went from being THE car, to just one OF the top cars. The question will always be whether Jeff and Ray could have kept the success track going much longer. Sadly, I think that was a comet that had just about burned itself out.
Add to that age, a divorce, a new marriage, kids, injuries and having Robbie Loomis and Steve Letarte as crew chiefs (both great guys that I am higher on than most, but never the equal of Ray) and the real question might be how he stayed relevant as long as he did.
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I personally think they were done after 99 MAYBE they stick together in 2000-02 ish but they needed a divorce like Chad and Jimmie did which also ran its course. Even Tom Brady left Bill Belichick, it happens to all of them. I was excited though for the possibility of a reunion when Ray went back to HMS late in Jeff's career, that would have been fun to see Ray jumping back up on the box of the 24 to take on current at the time young guns.
 
Formerjackman said:
For me, it was never quite the same once Ray Evernham left in late 1999. After that, the 24 went from being THE car, to just one OF the top cars. The question will always be whether Jeff and Ray could have kept the success track going much longer. Sadly, I think that was a comet that had just about burned itself out.
Add to that age, a divorce, a new marriage, kids, injuries and having Robbie Loomis and Steve Letarte as crew chiefs (both great guys that I am higher on than most, but never the equal of Ray) and the real question might be how he stayed relevant as long as he did.
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Yep. It got to the point where Jeff believed he could do it without Ray, and Ray believed he could do it without Jeff. They were both right, but it seems both of them look back and wonder "what if".

Once Ray got out of the ownership stuff in the late 2000's, I think it would have been cool to see him become Gordon's CC again 10 years after he had left.
 
Snappy D said:
I personally think they were done after 99 MAYBE they stick together in 2000-02 ish but they needed a divorce like Chad and Jimmie did which also ran its course. Even Tom Brady left Bill Belichick, it happens to all of them. I was excited though for the possibility of a reunion when Ray went back to HMS late in Jeff's career, that would have been fun to see Ray jumping back up on the box of the 24 to take on current at the time young guns.
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Chad and Jimmie, and Tom and Bill were able to make it work a LOT longer than Jeff and Ray did though. Maybe a cookies and milk meeting would have helped those two, but once Ray got the chance to be millionaire on paper and be his own boss overnight, I don't think Keebler had enough cookies to solve that one.
 
Formerjackman said:
Chad and Jimmie, and Tom and Bill were able to make it work a LOT longer than Jeff and Ray did though. Maybe a cookies and milk meeting would have helped those two, but once Ray got the chance to be millionaire on paper and be his own boss overnight, I don't think Keebler had enough cookies to solve that one.
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yea I've read multiple interviews and articles with Ray saying the allure of building something from scratch was what took him away from the 24 Pit Box. Ray had a good go of it there for a while with Evernham Motorsports. I'd do anything to see a full season in their primes Jimmie/Chad vs Jeff/Ray throwdown for a Cup Championship.
 
Snappy D said:
yea I've read multiple interviews and articles with Ray saying the allure of building something from scratch was what took him away from the 24 Pit Box. Ray had a good go of it there for a while with Evernham Motorsports. I'd do anything to see a full season in their primes Jimmie/Chad vs Jeff/Ray throwdown for a Cup Championship.
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Yeah, I'd pay to see that too. The two masters VS the two pupils. One of the interesting things I never really knew about unti recently was what a sometimes not totally friendly rivalry there was between guys like Knaus and Letarte, who were Evernham disciples, and guys like Gustafson, who is a Gary Dehart guy. I guess Dehart and Evernham really did NOT get along very well.
 
Formerjackman said:
I guess Dehart and Evernham really did NOT get along very well.
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I don't think they disliked each other but they certainly didn't want to help each other at all, especially in '96 when the 5 and 24 were battling for the title.

That must have been an interesting dynamic at HMS back then. If I recall correctly, Evernham was instructed to oversee the 25 team during the '96 season (I can't remember who the CC was for Schrader that year) in addition to his duties as CC for the 24, so maybe Dehart felt like Ray was getting too much power? I think Dehart left HMS in '97, then came back a few years later after Ray was gone. So maybe they disliked each other after all? I really don't know. I think I remember hearing that Ray rubbed Schrader the wrong way too, which is one reason why Schrader left HMS for Petree in '97.
 
I think the real question is will we ever see anyone top Gordon's 98 season? I thought I was close to seeing it a few times: 07 Jimmie, 08 Kyle Busch (at least the first part of the season) , 2017 MTJ were close. and the unreal run that Larson is on this year.
 
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2 Sweet said:
I don't think they disliked each other but they certainly didn't want to help each other at all, especially in '96 when the 5 and 24 were battling for the title.

That must have been an interesting dynamic at HMS back then. If I recall correctly, Evernham was instructed to oversee the 25 team during the '96 season (I can't remember who the CC was for Schrader that year) in addition to his duties as CC for the 24, so maybe Dehart felt like Ray was getting too much power? I think Dehart left HMS in '97, then came back a few years later after Ray was gone. So maybe they disliked each other after all? I really don't know. I think I remember hearing that Ray rubbed Schrader the wrong way too, which is one reason why Schrader left HMS for Petree in '97.
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I don't know what the whole story was, I think it was Chad who brought it up, and he made it sound like for a long time Gustafason really was not interested in working with him very much, and that it went all the way back to Ray and Gary. I met both of those guys briefly, and I don't think it's a stretch to say they were cut from different cloth.
 
Snappy D said:
Personally I think this started it. I also think he took a hell of a lot harder licks later in his career than he did at the beginning and it took its toll.
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For sure to both of your points. Field thickened, but loss is big and the sport changed after that.

From what I understand, Dale and Jeff were rivals on the track, and marketed the hell out of it.

But off camera, they actually respected the hell out of each other and were friends, like, legitimate friends, right?

Between the field thickening with young talent, moving on from ray, and dealing with the grief after losing Dale, I'd imagine there wasn't one factor that contributed to his decline, if you want to call it that

I don't think there was any loss of ability though. Jeff was as good as he's always been. Things just happen.


You see that episode of the DJJ when Gordon is reminiscing about his races and stories with Dale? I loved it. You can see how much Jeff just loves autoracing, and the way he talks about Dale.


Just to add, I was never a Gordon fan per se, but even during his dominant days, I always liked him. Liked how he raced. Liked how he composed himdelf, etc.

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ChexOrWrex said:
It’s a dominating season, but in reference to the post title, Gordon did more with 3 less races on the season. And honestly, it’s not that close.

13 wins to 9 (with a potential for 11)
26 top 5s to 19 (with a potential for 21)
28 top 10s to 26 (with a potential for 28)

Gordon held the points lead 20 times, including for 18 consecutive races. Larson has held the points lead 11 times, with a potential for 13.

Not just 1998, but Gordon’s level of statistical dominance from 1995 to 2005 is unmatched in the modern era.
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Agreed that it did not end up reaching JG 98' level, the opportunity was there early in the season for Larson to convert the race winning speed into wins, that did not transpire, otherwise he may have gotten close to the 13 mark, but those are just if's. Not challenging Jeff Gordon's legacy or historic season's, they stand on their own in multiple area's as has been stated "unmatched", and during a different time period.

I'd put Larson's season in recent dominant tier of 2017 Truex and 2020 Harvick, although I think Larson surpasses those if he gets the 10th win with the championship, the last driver to do that was 2007 Jimmie Johnson. It's astounding the breakout progression of Larson on an assortment of courses, after a year removed future uncertain to have this massive of a season.

The percentage laps-led metric is impressive, visually that reflects what I see. (again not going after JG here, just stats that show better than I can explain)
 
Snappy D said:
I think the real question is will we ever see anyone top Gordon's 98 season? I thought I was close to seeing it a few times: 07 Jimmie, 08 Kyle Busch (at least the first part of the season) , 2017 MTJ were close. and the unreal run that Larson is on this year.
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I hate to keep multiposting but I love this discussion.

In short, no. No one will. And I don't think anyone is remotely close, either. Truex 17 is an 8 win season with solid top 5s and top 10s. KB and Harv both had something like 8/22/28 in 18. Still FAR off from 13/26/28 in less races. Imo, Carl Edwards in 2008, 9/21/27 is just as good as any of these gen 6 runs.

08 KB looked like it, but he didn't really stand out. Carl was as fast as him all year, and KB won 3 races where the 99 was dominating and had issues (Dover, Atlanta, and Chicago).

Larson will not win Martinsville. So his season here could be a 10/21/27, with 2500+ laps lead. Still a far cry from 13/26/28.

Johnson's 07, 10/20/24 (I think), is the best season post 98 Gordon, imo, and I rank it above any of these gen 6 dominating seasons. Considering he did it was two generations of cars, Gordon was having that historic 6/24/30 season, and still had an average finish of 5.5 in the Chase, the 4 in a row at the end is as good as it gets for high levels of performance.

And imo, 07 Johnson doesn't touch 98 Gordon. 17 Truex, 21 Larson etc doesn't quite touch 07 Johnson.

So now. 98 Gordon is untouchable to anyone who doesn't win MORE than 10 races imo.

It will always be the GOAT cup season. Until someone comes along and pulls out like a 14/27/31.

Ain't happening

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Turtle84 said:
Agreed that it did not end up reaching JG 98' level, the opportunity was there early in the season for Larson to convert the race winning speed into wins, that did not transpire, otherwise he may have gotten close to the 13 mark, but those are just if's. Not challenging Jeff Gordon's legacy or historic season's, they stand on their own in multiple area's as has been stated "unmatched", and during a different time period.

I'd put Larson's season in recent dominant tier of 2017 Truex and 2020 Harvick, although I think Larson surpasses those if he gets the 10th win with the championship, the last driver to do that was 2007 Jimmie Johnson. It's astounding the breakout progression of Larson on an assortment of courses, after a year removed future uncertain to have this massive of a season.

The percentage laps-led metric is impressive, visually that reflects what I see. (again not going after JG here, just stats that show better than I can explain)
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This is why Larson's season is superior to Truex' 17 year, and Harvick last year. I'd still give 07 Johnson an edge, just because he had to outduel a GOAT in Gordon, in equal stuff, while having a record setting year.

But if Larson wraps it up, this season is definitely the best of the gen 6 era. And 3rd, arguably second best season since 98 Gordon.

If he wraps it up, it's inarguably a top 5 modern era season, imo.

98 Gordon above the rest

87 Dale

21 Larson/07 Johnson/85(?)DW

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ChexOrWrex said:
It’s a dominating season, but in reference to the post title, Gordon did more with 3 less races on the season. And honestly, it’s not that close.

13 wins to 9 (with a potential for 11)
26 top 5s to 19 (with a potential for 21)
28 top 10s to 26 (with a potential for 28)

Gordon held the points lead 20 times, including for 18 consecutive races. Larson has held the points lead 11 times, with a potential for 13.

Not just 1998, but Gordon’s level of statistical dominance from 1995 to 2005 is unmatched in the modern era.
Click to expand...

Sooo, Jeff was let go from a previous team, then, out of the car for the next year, he had his 13 win great season?
To accomplish this, Jeff got in a Race Car that he had never driven before the way it was configured before, for a brand new team, team owner and crew chief ?

When Larson has as many years under his belt as Gordon, we will revisit the stats.
 
sdj said:
Sooo, Jeff was let go from a previous team, then, out of the car for the next year, he had his 13 win great season?
To accomplish this, Jeff got in a Race Car that he had never driven before the way it was configured before, for a brand new team, team owner and crew chief ?

When Larson has as many years under his belt as Gordon, we will revisit the stats.
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I don't think this is fair. Larson was still racing. I hear your point, context is important, and it is...if we are looking at two seasons that are statistically similar.

These two are not. 98 Gordon is still a much superior season. If Larson does this again, or has another 10+ win season, then we will talk.

But right now, there's no comparison.

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jaqua19 said:
I hate to keep multiposting but I love this discussion.

In short, no. No one will. And I don't think anyone is remotely close, either. Truex 17 is an 8 win season with solid top 5s and top 10s. KB and Harv both had something like 8/22/28 in 18. Still FAR off from 13/26/28 in less races. Imo, Carl Edwards in 2008, 9/21/27 is just as good as any of these gen 6 runs.

08 KB looked like it, but he didn't really stand out. Carl was as fast as him all year, and KB won 3 races where the 99 was dominating and had issues (Dover, Atlanta, and Chicago).

Larson will not win Martinsville. So his season here could be a 10/21/27, with 2500+ laps lead. Still a far cry from 13/26/28.

Johnson's 07, 10/20/24 (I think), is the best season post 98 Gordon, imo, and I rank it above any of these gen 6 dominating seasons. Considering he did it was two generations of cars, Gordon was having that historic 6/24/30 season, and still had an average finish of 5.5 in the Chase, the 4 in a row at the end is as good as it gets for high levels of performance.

And imo, 07 Johnson doesn't touch 98 Gordon. 17 Truex, 21 Larson etc doesn't quite touch 07 Johnson.

So now. 98 Gordon is untouchable to anyone who doesn't win MORE than 10 races imo.

It will always be the GOAT cup season. Until someone comes along and pulls out like a 14/27/31.

Ain't happening

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I forgot Harvick's 8 win season. Golly.
 
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