Xfinity Restrictor Plates confirmed @ Indy and beyond..... probably to Cup too

Someone slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :D

I can't begin to guess how much skill is involved in all the different forms of racing but man, I love it all. Good stuff, Daytona to Homestead. Could do with less 1.5er's but it's still all good IMO.
 
I'm pretty sure the "peculiar and idiosyncratic" remark was mine, ha...

I understand your comparison to IndyCar to some extent, but I think you're being uncharitable to IndyCar and generous to NASCAR plate racing to equate the two.
I haven't equated IndyCar ovals with Nascar at Talladega and Daytona, but they do share some essential characteristics. They both feature cars at full throttle lap after lap, the drivers never lifting, never braking, just working the air and the traffic to advance. This type of racing derives from low horsepower with relatively high drag and downforce.

In IndyCar, the leader has an aero DISADVANTAGE due to higher drag, so the trailing car can suck up and pass. Once he does that, he then assumes the aero disadvantage, and becomes the "sitting duck." This is why there are so many passes for the lead (68 in a recent Indy 500). Many folks love it, hail it as a great race, but to me it is merely an illusion of good racing. IMO, this is the objective of putting plates on stock cars at Indianapolis, not pack racing like at Talladega.

Aero racing is my least favorite form of racing... whether it is Nascar plate tracks, IndyCar with its current rules, Moto3, whatever... but that doesn't mean it is easy to do and requires little skill. Your comparisons to reinventing basketball and parallel parking are silly and off the point, IMO.
 
IAero racing is my least favorite form of racing... whether it is Nascar plate tracks, IndyCar with its current rules, Moto3, whatever... but that doesn't mean it is easy to do and requires little skill. Your comparisons to reinventing basketball and parallel parking are silly and off the point, IMO.

Eh, maybe so, I introduced it as a crude analogy myself. I'm apparently being misunderstood even by the few who read carefully. I never said it was easy to do, and despite being the one who said "peculiar and idiosyncratic skill", that gets interpreted as "no skill". I did in fact say that it requires comparatively less exceptional driving skill, and that is precisely why a retired mid-50s Michael Waltrip can jump back in the car a couple times a year and do relatively well. Rust and lack of seat time / conditioning would matter far more anywhere else. To me this reality is so obvious that I start reaching for the absurd to explain it. I now see how it is impossible to get this point across in a discussion like this, because IMO people who enjoy NASCAR plate racing for entertainment reasons prefer to pretend that it also has equal sporting merit.

You have made your points quite well, and I pretty much agree with every individual comment and preference, just not always the conclusion as expressed. I agree 100% about the "illusion" comment regarding low horsepower and high drag / high grip racing.
 
IMO people who enjoy NASCAR plate racing for entertainment reasons prefer to pretend that it also has equal sporting merit.
Gnomesayin, that is fairly condescending, and uncalled for IMO. I'm not going to comment on "prefer to pretend" bulls#!t, but will point out that I have explicitly denied "equal sporting merit" regarding my own thinking multiple times in this thread, and every other thread on the topic. I have softened my previous opinion of absolute non-respect for plate racing, because I have realized how rare the really good ones are who possess the skills to excel consistently. For example, there is no way Dale Jr or Brad K would have lost the 2015 Daytona 500 on the last lap the way Matt Kenseth did. So I have gained "a measure of respect" for the sporting merit. There is no need to condescend those who disagree with you, especially when the disagreement is a matter of slight degree, like this one.
 
Plate racing is a crapshoot. For example, Michael Waltrip. Fortunately there are only 2 plate tracks for now. Metal recycling businesses love plate racing.
Dale Jr is a great plate driver but he will never win a championship.
Plate racing is a different form of NASCAR racing and not everyone that is good in a plate car should be deemed a great NASCAR driver.
Although great NASCAR drivers have won plate races.
 
Anyone who's seen Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Brad Keselowski, Denny Hamlin, or even recently, Chase Elliott draft at these restrictor plate tracks knows it is not something that requires no skill. I'd even argue that it's not a skill that is even EASILY learned. Sure, it's possible to ride around in the back all day like Michael Waltrip in the Daytona 500 and get an 8th place finish due to attrition. But he didn't gain that finish from skill, and everyone knows that. It was more attrition than anything.

Earnhardt, Keselowski, and Hamlin all have an ungodly amount of wins at these plate tracks, and that is no coincidence. Chase Elliott is soon to be there too, based on his performance at Daytona this season. Logano, Austin Dillon, and the Busch brothers are one notch below the aforementioned drivers in terms of skill at these plate tracks. The record speaks for itself. If it is such an easy skill to garner, why do the same guys win all the plate races?

It is no coincidence that Keselowski and Chase Elliott are both proteges of Dale Earnhardt, Jr. It is obvious that they learned their skills drafting from the Pied Piper himself.

Hamlin, since 2008 when he discovered tandem drafting, has always been a great plate racer. It seems like he wins The Clash and/or a Duel race every year. He's won The Clash 3 times, and his Duel race 3 times, with a Daytona 500 and a Talladega win to accompany those. That totals to 8 restrictor plate Cup wins.

Keselowski has 4 Talladega wins and a Daytona win, totaling to 5 restrictor plate Cup wins.

Dale Jr. has 6 Talladega wins, 2 Daytona 500s, 2 Daytona 400s, 2 Clash wins, and 5 Duel wins. This amasses to 17 restrictor plate Cup wins. If it is such an easy skill to learn, and it's so randomized, how could one driver win at these style of tracks 17 times, exceeding his closest active competition by 9 wins? The simple answer is this: Restrictor plate racing is not an easy skill to learn. It is not random. It is just as legitimate as any other style of racing.

Of course, some might bring up Derrike Cope, David Ragan, Trevor Bayne, or Michael Waltrip. Here is my rebuttal to each case.

Derrike Cope, on that winning day in 1990, had a great car and was giving it the drive of his life. Every driver, no matter his skill level, has his day where everything comes together for him, his day where for once, he doesn't screw it up with an error. The 1990 Daytona 500 was Derrike Cope's day. He positioned himself to be behind Earnhardt on the final lap, and was there to capitalize on Earnhardt's troubles. No fluke there. Plus, Cope backed up his Daytona 500 win with a win at Dover later in the season. Can you say that Dover is a track that requires a shallow skill level to win at? I didn't think so. Cope had unrealized potential as a driver. A lot of that can probably be put on his shoulders for not putting in the work necessary to be a top-tier driver, but he had potential.

David Ragan and Trevor Bayne both took advantage of the tandem drafting era to score their first career wins. I will say, the tandem drafting era (2009-2012) was probably the most random era of plate racing in NASCAR's history. Nobody was able to say they were any better at it than anyone else. That being said, we no longer live in the tandem drafting era, and it was short-lived as it was. Bayne and Ragan are both respectable drivers anyway. Bayne, in Roush equipment I might add, has been a Chase contender since last season. David Ragan had a hell of a 2008 campaign in the #6 car, in addition to Xfinity wins in 2009 at Talladega and Bristol. Of course, somewhere along the line, the wheels fell off of David Ragan's career as a top-tier driver right when he began to show serious potential. But at one point in time, the potential was there and therefore, somewhere inside David Ragan rests a talented racecar driver that sometimes reveals himself.

As for David Ragan's 2013 triumph at Talladega, keep in mind this win occurred in NASCAR's first season using the Gen-6 car. Nobody had seriously figured out how to pass, or even race this car on plate tracks. It was all a game of who got a great restart, followed by a single file train around the track after 5 laps that lasted the duration of the green flag run. On the last restart of the race, Ragan managed to line up with his teammate and shoot to the front, being the only car on the track with a devoted pusher behind him instead of an individual going for the win themselves. This of course, can no longer occur due to the entire field having great knowledge on making these cars work at plate tracks now.

Michael Waltrip wasn't nearly as bad as everyone gives him crap for. He had numerous races on non-plate tracks where he seriously contended and could've won if some things had gone differently. Waltrip was at times, unlucky, but that comes with the sport. That being said, his specialty was always restrictor plate racing. Every driver has a specialty. Jimmie Johnson is great at 1.5 mile racetracks. AJ Allmendinger is a road course ace. Denny Hamlin is fantastic at short tracks. And Michael Waltrip, much like these aforementioned drivers, had a specialty of his own, that being at restrictor plate tracks. This specialty was only augmented when he became a driver for Dale Earnhardt Incorporated. He now had the knowledge of the all-time master of restrictor plate tracks at his disposal. Don't forget, Dale Earnhardt had 26 Cup restrictor plate wins. Is that a coincidence? His drivers had access to that knowledge, and his knowledge allowed his cars to be set up accordingly to dominate. Give someone like Waltrip, who's already good at plate tracks, a teacher and great cars, and he will dominate. That domination did not occur because anybody can win those races. That domination occurred because he had the tools at his disposal to become a great plate driver.

Upset because wrecks can occur that take out the field? You won't find the greats like Hamlin, Keselowski, or Earnhardt in those wrecks very often. They're good enough to stay at the front.
 
Anyone who's seen Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Brad Keselowski, Denny Hamlin, or even recently, Chase Elliott draft at these restrictor plate tracks knows it is not something that requires no skill. I'd even argue that it's not a skill that is even EASILY learned. Sure, it's possible to ride around in the back all day like Michael Waltrip in the Daytona 500 and get an 8th place finish due to attrition. But he didn't gain that finish from skill, and everyone knows that. It was more attrition than anything.

Earnhardt, Keselowski, and Hamlin all have an ungodly amount of wins at these plate tracks, and that is no coincidence. Chase Elliott is soon to be there too, based on his performance at Daytona this season. Logano, Austin Dillon, and the Busch brothers are one notch below the aforementioned drivers in terms of skill at these plate tracks. The record speaks for itself. If it is such an easy skill to garner, why do the same guys win all the plate races?

It is no coincidence that Keselowski and Chase Elliott are both proteges of Dale Earnhardt, Jr. It is obvious that they learned their skills drafting from the Pied Piper himself.

Hamlin, since 2008 when he discovered tandem drafting, has always been a great plate racer. It seems like he wins The Clash and/or a Duel race every year. He's won The Clash 3 times, and his Duel race 3 times, with a Daytona 500 and a Talladega win to accompany those. That totals to 8 restrictor plate Cup wins.

Keselowski has 4 Talladega wins and a Daytona win, totaling to 5 restrictor plate Cup wins.

Dale Jr. has 6 Talladega wins, 2 Daytona 500s, 2 Daytona 400s, 2 Clash wins, and 5 Duel wins. This amasses to 17 restrictor plate Cup wins. If it is such an easy skill to learn, and it's so randomized, how could one driver win at these style of tracks 17 times, exceeding his closest active competition by 9 wins? The simple answer is this: Restrictor plate racing is not an easy skill to learn. It is not random. It is just as legitimate as any other style of racing.

Of course, some might bring up Derrike Cope, David Ragan, Trevor Bayne, or Michael Waltrip. Here is my rebuttal to each case.

Derrike Cope, on that winning day in 1990, had a great car and was giving it the drive of his life. Every driver, no matter his skill level, has his day where everything comes together for him, his day where for once, he doesn't screw it up with an error. The 1990 Daytona 500 was Derrike Cope's day. He positioned himself to be behind Earnhardt on the final lap, and was there to capitalize on Earnhardt's troubles. No fluke there. Plus, Cope backed up his Daytona 500 win with a win at Dover later in the season. Can you say that Dover is a track that requires a shallow skill level to win at? I didn't think so. Cope had unrealized potential as a driver. A lot of that can probably be put on his shoulders for not putting in the work necessary to be a top-tier driver, but he had potential.

David Ragan and Trevor Bayne both took advantage of the tandem drafting era to score their first career wins. I will say, the tandem drafting era (2009-2012) was probably the most random era of plate racing in NASCAR's history. Nobody was able to say they were any better at it than anyone else. That being said, we no longer live in the tandem drafting era, and it was short-lived as it was. Bayne and Ragan are both respectable drivers anyway. Bayne, in Roush equipment I might add, has been a Chase contender since last season. David Ragan had a hell of a 2008 campaign in the #6 car, in addition to Xfinity wins in 2009 at Talladega and Bristol. Of course, somewhere along the line, the wheels fell off of David Ragan's career as a top-tier driver right when he began to show serious potential. But at one point in time, the potential was there and therefore, somewhere inside David Ragan rests a talented racecar driver that sometimes reveals himself.

As for David Ragan's 2013 triumph at Talladega, keep in mind this win occurred in NASCAR's first season using the Gen-6 car. Nobody had seriously figured out how to pass, or even race this car on plate tracks. It was all a game of who got a great restart, followed by a single file train around the track after 5 laps that lasted the duration of the green flag run. On the last restart of the race, Ragan managed to line up with his teammate and shoot to the front, being the only car on the track with a devoted pusher behind him instead of an individual going for the win themselves. This of course, can no longer occur due to the entire field having great knowledge on making these cars work at plate tracks now.

Michael Waltrip wasn't nearly as bad as everyone gives him crap for. He had numerous races on non-plate tracks where he seriously contended and could've won if some things had gone differently. Waltrip was at times, unlucky, but that comes with the sport. That being said, his specialty was always restrictor plate racing. Every driver has a specialty. Jimmie Johnson is great at 1.5 mile racetracks. AJ Allmendinger is a road course ace. Denny Hamlin is fantastic at short tracks. And Michael Waltrip, much like these aforementioned drivers, had a specialty of his own, that being at restrictor plate tracks. This specialty was only augmented when he became a driver for Dale Earnhardt Incorporated. He now had the knowledge of the all-time master of restrictor plate tracks at his disposal. Don't forget, Dale Earnhardt had 26 Cup restrictor plate wins. Is that a coincidence? His drivers had access to that knowledge, and his knowledge allowed his cars to be set up accordingly to dominate. Give someone like Waltrip, who's already good at plate tracks, a teacher and great cars, and he will dominate. That domination did not occur because anybody can win those races. That domination occurred because he had the tools at his disposal to become a great plate driver.

Upset because wrecks can occur that take out the field? You won't find the greats like Hamlin, Keselowski, or Earnhardt in those wrecks very often. They're good enough to stay at the front.
Some teams have better plate programs.
Mikey won four in a DEI plate car.
 
Gnomesayin, that is fairly condescending, and uncalled for IMO.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I'm genuinely confused if you thought that particular comment was directed at you or required you to defend yourself against it, especially when I stated that I found considerable agreement with your opinions on the subject. My disagreement with you may be slight because I disagree not on the specifics but on the overall conclusion or stance. My disagreement with people who completely mischaracterize what I wrote or who maintain that plate racing is just different and every bit as valid is not slight. I'm still reading new posts arguing against this phantom strawman "no skill" claim that nobody made. If my frustration was showing that's on me, because obviously I'm not coming off well.
 
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Some teams have better plate programs.
Mikey won four in a DEI plate car.

The 1 car never won a plate race though. The drivers of the 1 car weren't good enough on plate tracks to be able to do such a thing. As I stated, Michael's wins came from a combination of his own prowess, the knowledge he gained from Dale Sr., and Dale Sr's (and later Dale Jr's) influence on the setups at these tracks.
 
Eh, maybe so, I introduced it as a crude analogy myself. I'm apparently being misunderstood even by the few who read carefully. I never said it was easy to do, and despite being the one who said "peculiar and idiosyncratic skill", that gets interpreted as "no skill". I did in fact say that it requires comparatively less exceptional driving skill, and that is precisely why a retired mid-50s Michael Waltrip can jump back in the car a couple times a year and do relatively well. Rust and lack of seat time / conditioning would matter far more anywhere else. To me this reality is so obvious that I start reaching for the absurd to explain it. I now see how it is impossible to get this point across in a discussion like this, because IMO people who enjoy NASCAR plate racing for entertainment reasons prefer to pretend that it also has equal sporting merit.

You have made your points quite well, and I pretty much agree with every individual comment and preference, just not always the conclusion as expressed. I agree 100% about the "illusion" comment regarding low horsepower and high drag / high grip racing.

No one on these boards has ever accused me of being the sharpest turnip on the wagon but I understood the point you were making. Racing on a plate track requires skill but that skill is easier to acquire than say being proficient at flat tracks, short tracks or road courses. Anecdotally you don't see Trevor Bayne winning Daytona and then challenging for wins at other tracks and the same can be said for drivers like David Ragan.

I suspect you could get drivers like Johnny Benson and Scott Riggs and give them a little practice time in a decent car at a plate track and they would not look out of place.
 
The 1 car never won a plate race though. The drivers of the 1 car weren't good enough on plate tracks to be able to do such a thing. As I stated, Michael's wins came from a combination of his own prowess, the knowledge he gained from Dale Sr., and Dale Sr's (and later Dale Jr's) influence on the setups at these tracks.
Yes plate racing is a different type of skill.
Not everyone that is good at a plate track is championship material. Some Cup Champions haven't fared particularly well at plate tracks.
Plate is plate and shouldn't be a yardstick for determining whether someone is or isn't a great driver.
 
Gnomesayin, that is fairly condescending, and uncalled for IMO. I'm not going to comment on "prefer to pretend" bulls#!t, but will point out that I have explicitly denied "equal sporting merit" regarding my own thinking multiple times in this thread, and every other thread on the topic. I have softened my previous opinion of absolute non-respect for plate racing, because I have realized how rare the really good ones are who possess the skills to excel consistently. For example, there is no way Dale Jr or Brad K would have lost the 2015 Daytona 500 on the last lap the way Matt Kenseth did. So I have gained "a measure of respect" for the sporting merit. There is no need to condescend those who disagree with you, especially when the disagreement is a matter of slight degree, like this one.

JMO but I think it is just pure frustration and not condescension as a person can only say the same thing so many times and have what they say misunderstood or misconstrued before becoming frustrated.
 
Some teams have better plate programs.
Mikey won four in a DEI plate car.
Yep.

The Joonyer had seven of his ten plate wins come during a four-year period well over a decade ago - the same period in which Mikey Waltrip won all four of his plate victories. At HMS, he's finished outside of the Top 10 more times (ten) at Talladega than he has inside (seven); at Daytona he's finished outside the Top 10 nearly as many times (nine) as he has inside (ten).
 
No one on these boards has ever accused me of being the sharpest turnip on the wagon but I understood the point you were making. Racing on a plate track requires skill but that skill is easier to acquire than say being proficient at flat tracks, short tracks or road courses. Anecdotally you don't see Trevor Bayne winning Daytona and then challenging for wins at other tracks and the same can be said for drivers like David Ragan.

I suspect you could get drivers like Johnny Benson and Scott Riggs and give them a little practice time in a decent car at a plate track and they would not look out of place.
Ryan Reed.

Four Top 10s at Daytona, including two wins. Eight Top 10s everywhere else. No wins.
 
I never said something as truly dismissive as plate racing sucks (I may agree but I'm not just looking to antagonize) or that it's a total random crapshoot. I tried to make specific claims that a few are clearly superior at it, but that otherwise it is largely random and doesn't require or reward the depth of skill that the remainder of the NASCAR schedule does.

I agree with Skoal that if they must continue ad infinitum, they should be exhibition races. I can't imagine anyone who likes them does so for points racing strategy, and it might eliminate the compulsion among some drivers to just try to survive them.
 
I never said something as truly dismissive as plate racing sucks (I may agree but I'm not just looking to antagonize) or that it's a total random crapshoot. I tried to make specific claims that a few are clearly superior at it, but that otherwise it is largely random and doesn't require or reward the depth of skill that the remainder of the NASCAR schedule does.

I agree with Skoal that if they must continue ad infinitum, they should be exhibition races. I can't imagine anyone who likes them does so for points racing strategy, and it might eliminate the compulsion among some drivers to just try to survive them.
When drivers like Dale Sr, Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, etc speak out against plate tracks Brian should listen.
The fat bastard is too busy shooting holes in his own feet.
 
When drivers like Dale Sr, Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, etc speak out against plate tracks Brian should listen.
The fat bastard is too busy shooting holes in his own feet.
When did Dale Sr speak out against plate tracks?
 
You may be right but I believe Dale Sr ironically predicted his own death.
I'll try to find it. Tony may have said something similar.
Before the 01 500, Dale did say to Fox that "I think we are going to see something weve never seen before".
 
Dale said that during the red flag of the 2001 Daytona 500. Just minutes before his death.
Was it the red flag after Stewart's crash? I just watched that & they didnt have any audio from Dale that I heard.
 
After the 25th running, they should seriously consider dropping this race.
Agreed. I think I only enjoyed the 1st 3 races there. Gordon winning for the 1st time and the Dale/Rusty battles. Those were some good races.
 
Was it the red flag after Stewart's crash? I just watched that & they didnt have any audio from Dale that I heard.
It was that red flag. If you ever watched the short film "3", I think it was Richard Childress who mentioned that is what Dale said during the red flag.
 
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