Championship Fatigue...

oldschoolnascardude1

oldschoolnascardude1

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Has set in.

Between Kyle Busch (5/6), Kevin Harvick, (5/6) and Martin Truex (4/6), it is becoming the same thing each year, with Denny Hamlin and Joey Logano becoming interchangeable, too. The intensity is not where it once was and the other competition has slowly stopped racing to the point where you can almost guarantee the championship contenders will run in the top five throughout the day. Everything feels forced and manipulated.

That said, I'll be back in February. Go ahead and criticize me, I'll hang up and listen.
 
The only thing I got out of this is that no other team tries hard through the season? Really? It’s almost about that time to take my yearly end of the season break from these parts, I started a bit earlier this season but checked in periodically like yesterday. I think it’s time to go the whole way.
 
That is because the championship 4 cars are allowed more bending of the rules (cheated up) for Homestead. Ask you self how often the top 4 won a race during the season. Then ask how could one of them always win homestead every year in a row
 
I recorded the race and watched it a bit later, fast forwarding through most of it because I knew how the race would go and the TV coverage would focus just on those 4. It's the same every year.

I'll give Logano, Larson, and a few others some credit for racing those four cars early in the race. But that changed by the start of the last stage. There was an instance where the three Toyotas where in the top 3 and Harvick was 5th. Larson was in fourth. When he saw the other three getting an advantage, he pulled over and let Harvick by a couple of laps later.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
That is because the championship 4 cars are allowed more bending of the rules (cheated up) for Homestead. Ask you self how often the top 4 won a race during the season. Then ask how could one of them always win homestead every year in a row
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Um. More than half?
 
hidesert cowboy said:
That is because the championship 4 cars are allowed more bending of the rules (cheated up) for Homestead. Ask you self how often the top 4 won a race during the season. Then ask how could one of them always win homestead every year in a row
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Considering the top 4 drivers won 22 races, I'd say it'd be weird if one of them didn't win Homestead.
 
The best racing was between Busch and Harvick. Maybe having three teams (Gibbs) in the big four had something to do with it?
 
oldschoolnascardude1 said:
Has set in.

Between Kyle Busch (5/6), Kevin Harvick, (5/6) and Martin Truex (4/6), it is becoming the same thing each year, with Denny Hamlin and Joey Logano becoming interchangeable, too. The intensity is not where it once was and the other competition has slowly stopped racing to the point where you can almost guarantee the championship contenders will run in the top five throughout the day. Everything feels forced and manipulated.

That said, I'll be back in February. Go ahead and criticize me, I'll hang up and listen.
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I hear you.. but is it worse when the same driver won 5 strait and 7/10? Why the fatigue from KB KH and MTJ now?

Let me try to explain, Ive made a similar post. I think the issue is in the Gen 6 car. Today, the best teams have arguably the fastest cars every single week. The last time a driver dominated for a period of time, there was more pariety on a race to race / season to season basis. Yes, Johnson was more dominant than these guys now..but each year, different drivers showed up as contenders.

The key here, is that the best team/fastest car didn't dominate every week. From 2001-2013, two drivers had 27+ top 10s seasons. In 2007 then 2008. That's it. From 2014-2019, it's happened every year. The best of today, on a race to race basis are more dominant than the best prior to the Gen 6. The results are the best teams dominating almost every race.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would guess that champion fatigue is less about them being title contenders, and more about them being the fastest each week, which wasn't the case for the "best team" prior to the Gen 6.

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jaqua19 said:
I hear you.. but is it worse when the same driver won 5 strait and 7/10? Why the fatigue from KB KH and MTJ now?

Let me try to explain, Ive made a similar post. I think the issue is in the Gen 6 car. Today, the best teams have arguably the fastest cars every single week. The last time a driver dominated for a period of time, there was more pariety on a race to race / season to season basis. Yes, Johnson was more dominant than these guys now..but each year, different drivers showed up as contenders.

The key here, is that the best team/fastest car didn't dominate every week. From 2001-2013, two drivers had 27+ top 10s seasons. In 2007 then 2008. That's it. From 2014-2019, it's happened every year. The best of today, on a race to race basis are more dominant than the best prior to the Gen 6. The results are the best teams dominating almost every race.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would guess that champion fatigue is less about them being title contenders, and more about them being the fastest each week, which wasn't the case for the "best team" prior to the Gen 6.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
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I actually saw your post earlier this morning and it well typed out. At least with Johnson, he had some battles with Gordon, Hamlin, Harvick, Edwards, Kenseth over the course of his reign, and eventually Keselowski dethroned him. So, while the 48 was dominating, it was always different characters that were challenging. It is literally the same six guys making up the majority of the contenders on a yearly basis now. I think that contributes to part of the subdued vibe. These same guys are all used to it, therefore, they don't have energy or "jitters" that you'll sometimes see people have, such as Hamlin's first attempt in 2010, Logano's pit crew crapping the bed in 2014, etc. There is no more "freshness" to it. Even during the Stewart/Edwards dual they traded jabs. During Harvick's title, he talked smack during the Homestead media day, too.

As for the title, I feel like Alan's post last year is 100 percent accurate in terms of the cars. For the first couple of years, I felt as if everyone was giving 100 percent. Then, ever since Gordon pitted for no reason, it seems guys move over as quickly as possible. Kyle Larson has twice. Brad Keselowski stayed out of the way on a restart a few years ago. No doubt, the four guys that made it were deserving, but it is certainly starting to see more and more forced over the past few years. TV production doesn't help matters, either.
 
oldschoolnascardude1 said:
I actually saw your post earlier this morning and it well typed out. At least with Johnson, he had some battles with Gordon, Hamlin, Harvick, Edwards, Kenseth over the course of his reign, and eventually Keselowski dethroned him. So, while the 48 was dominating, it was always different characters that were challenging. It is literally the same six guys making up the majority of the contenders on a yearly basis now. I think that contributes to part of the subdued vibe. These same guys are all used to it, therefore, they don't have energy or "jitters" that you'll sometimes see people have, such as Hamlin's first attempt in 2010, Logano's pit crew crapping the bed in 2014, etc. There is no more "freshness" to it. Even during the Stewart/Edwards dual they traded jabs. During Harvick's title, he talked smack during the Homestead media day, too.

As for the title, I feel like Alan's post last year is 100 percent accurate in terms of the cars. For the first couple of years, I felt as if everyone was giving 100 percent. Then, ever since Gordon pitted for no reason, it seems guys move over as quickly as possible. Kyle Larson has twice. Brad Keselowski stayed out of the way on a restart a few years ago. No doubt, the four guys that made it were deserving, but it is certainly starting to see more and more forced over the past few years. TV production doesn't help matters, either.
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Yeah, it's not even that Johnson had battled with varying drivers though. Looking at the best each year, Gordon/Johnson, Johnson/Busch/Edwards,. Johnson/Harvick/Hamlin,. Johnson/Keselowski, Johnson/Kenseth. Each of those years, the 48 and whoever else was a favorite didn't dominate EVERY week. The only time the 48 and another driver were dominant every week, was in 2013... First year of the gen 6. Coincidence? Ironically, it seemed like there was more hope for someone "other than the 48" to win a race during his reign than it is now. And that shouldn't make sense.

It's just a different product today, and narratives are important. Rick Allen compared Kyle Busch to Dale Sr. 56 wins, 2 titles 15 years are awesome, all time numbers, especially at age 34. But those aren't worthy of being compared to Dale.

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I saw drivers getting out of the way all season long. On one hand it is kinda dumb unless you are Newman to hold up a car that is a half a second faster than they are. Larson wasn't pulling over when he was fighting for the lead early in the race. The track makes a difference also. Homestead was multi grove that tends to become single groove late in the races, so moving over with a obviously slower car is a courtesy . The Gerbils are too busy yapping to pay attention to faster cars closing on slower cars unless they become obvious and TV will suddenly snap over to the pass so that is all a viewer sees. The viewer doesn't see with TV or hear from the gerbils about a car running 5 tenths quicker a lap, very seldom.
 
The 4 teams that were in the final were the best teas all year long. The stats don't lie. Same thing in the Xfinity Series. No one was bending rules. They were just the best. Do people forget when HMS dominated? They would have had 3 cars in the final. There were times when Roush would have. It's all part of the ebb and flow of sports.

I used to get all wrapped up in all the BS. I never missed a practice and read every article.I subscribed to every in-car subscription and went to several races per year. Half the time I was miserable because my enjoyment of the sport hinged on the fortunes of the 24. I wish I could go back and take it less seriously and allow myself to just enjoy the entertainment of it all. It's such a cool sport in so many ways. The only thing that sucks about it is that the fan base seems to be incapable of every being happy about anything. The fans are what is truly fatiguing.
 
Matthew2470 said:
The only thing that sucks about it is that the fan base seems to be incapable of ever being happy about anything. The fans are what is truly fatiguing.
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Was the fanbase unhappy with everything back in the 90's? Were the fans complaining about everything back then when the sport's popularity was through the roof, every race selling out, new tracks being built?
 
It's ridiculous to complain that there are a handful of dominant teams and drivers. Welcome to motorsports. Welcome to sports. When there is only one for a decade, that can produce 'fatigue'.

If you prefer competitions in which new people win all the time, watch amateur sports. Even then, you'll watch the same handful of institutions dominate with different players plugged in.

That said, the playoffs format still sucks, as in sucks all the life and spontaneneity out of what a close championship battle can be.
 
2 Sweet said:
Was the fanbase unhappy with everything back in the 90's? Were the fans complaining about everything back then when the sport's popularity was through the roof, every race selling out, new tracks being built?
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Hard to tell, seems like everybody was either a Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Sr fan back then so life was pretty good in it's own nostalgic way. Back when the older fans were young and part of the baby boomers the largest spike in population and they had money to burn and less ways to spend it. Nascar did their part and over extended themselves betting on the come. Haven't heard much about what it was like if you were a Morgan Shepherd fan.
 
The format has gotten stale imo. Instead of letting the championship happen organically we have the forced game 7 environment that just doesn’t apply to auto racing. I also think fans are tired of the final 4 having an obvious equipment advantage and the rest of the field just laying back and watching the championship play out. It’s not fair to the fans that these guys don’t go 100% and put on a show. If someone other then the final 4 won the race I highly doubt the fan base would revolt like NASCAR seems to think lol.



Don’t get me wrong I’m still really happy Kyle won, but I’m not gonna be biased and pretend I love the system now
 
I like the way they’re doing the points/stages now vs. how they did it the first three years of the elimination format as there is now some reward for running well in the regular season. However, the downside of that is that you’re going to have less variation as far as who makes it to the Championship 4 from year to year. Chances are you’re going to have at least 2, but most likely 3 of the drivers who were in it the year before. I’ll still take that any day of the week over the 2014-2016 lottery though.
 
StandOnIt said:
Hard to tell, seems like everybody was either a Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Sr fan back then so life was pretty good in it's own nostalgic way. Back when the older fans were young and part of the baby boomers the largest spike in population and they had money to burn and less ways to spend it. Nascar did their part and over extended themselves betting on the come. Haven't heard much about what it was like if you were a Morgan Shepherd fan.
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I just think it's silly when fans complain about other fans complaining. I hate the dumb narrative that NASCAR fans are wishy washy and impossible to please.

When the on-track product is good, the majority of fans are satisfied. Simple as that.
 
2 Sweet said:
I just think it's silly when fans complain about other fans complaining. I hate the dumb narrative that NASCAR fans are wishy washy and impossible to please.

When the on-track product is good, the majority of fans are satisfied. Simple as that.
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you kidding me? It's a well known fact, laughed about and commented frequently that Nascar fans are nothing but a bunch of complainers for the most part.
 
StandOnIt said:
you kidding me? It's a well known fact, laughed about and commented frequently that Nascar fans are nothing but a bunch of complainers for the most part.
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And it's BS. NASCAR fans aren't any different than Indycar fans, NFL fans, MLB fans, or any other fanbase of any other sport.

Whenever someone mentions how the racing was better 20 years so, we get the dumb comments about nostalgia clouding our judgement. :rolleyes:
 
DaBiff1618 said:
The format has gotten stale imo. Instead of letting the championship happen organically we have the forced game 7 environment that just doesn’t apply to auto racing. I also think fans are tired of the final 4 having an obvious equipment advantage and the rest of the field just laying back and watching the championship play out. It’s not fair to the fans that these guys don’t go 100% and put on a show. If someone other then the final 4 won the race I highly doubt the fan base would revolt like NASCAR seems to think lol.



Don’t get me wrong I’m still really happy Kyle won, but I’m not gonna be biased and pretend I love the system now
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They had an obvious equipment advantage all year if people were paying attention. The stage results can throw a curve ball into that fact to a point, but the three cars that were responsible for the most wins were in the playoffs, and spot 4 was a toss up between Logano and Harvick, both a distant 4th. The regular season winner also won the overall title. On the other hand when Crafton came from the cellar and won the truck title this same bunch was all up in arms about it. Not that they will notice or take credit for those facts, but it happens all the time here.
 
2 Sweet said:
And it's BS. NASCAR fans aren't any different than Indycar fans, NFL fans, MLB fans, or any other fanbase of any other sport.

Whenever someone mentions how the racing was better 20 years so, we get the dumb comments about nostalgia clouding our judgement. :rolleyes:
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It's B.S. in your world and that is a good thing, but it has very little bearing when using it to compare to today. It's a different world if you have been paying attention. BTW every major racing series has declined over the years. The racing couldn't have gotten worse in every series over the years there are other issues, many, these days.
 
2 Sweet said:
Was the fanbase unhappy with everything back in the 90's? Were the fans complaining about everything back then when the sport's popularity was through the roof, every race selling out, new tracks being built?
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I guarantee if we had the internet & social media & message boards back then (not to mention podcasts, a zillion cable stations, streams etc...) fans would have appeared to be complaining about everything as well. That's what the internet and social media allows - annoyed people to be annoyed out loud. Plus, social media also convinces people to be annoyed about things they probably didn't even know they should be annoyed with until they read about how annoying something was. It all just snowballs.
 
Allenbaba said:
I guarantee if we had the internet & social media & message boards back then (not to mention podcasts, a zillion cable stations, streams etc...) fans would have appeared to be complaining about everything as well. That's what the internet and social media allows - annoyed people to be annoyed out loud. Plus, social media also convinces people to be annoyed about things they probably didn't even know they should be annoyed with until they read about how annoying something was. It all just snowballs.
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So true. Also the mags I was subscribed to wrote about the races, none of this drama opinion B.S. to get more viewers. They didn't need to with the way journalism was set up back in the day.
 
2 Sweet said:
And it's BS. NASCAR fans aren't any different than Indycar fans, NFL fans, MLB fans, or any other fanbase of any other sport.

Whenever someone mentions how the racing was better 20 years so, we get the dumb comments about nostalgia clouding our judgement. :rolleyes:
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I agree with this sentiment. NASCAR fans disagree with something the sport does and is instantly called a bunch complainers or in these parts Death Bedders. I feel like as a fan its okay to disagree with what you're seeing if you dont like it, the caveat to that is you have to support the sport by attending or watching. Just dont bitch when the moment supports your argument. I myself dislike the aero package, point system and Toyota Dominance but I feel I can say this because I have invested time every week watching every race and my money by going to races ( Chicaogland, and Bristol this year) or buying merchandise, I dont have to like what I am seeing but I still support the sport anyways. I think the journalistic coverage of the sport needs serious help, the coverage isnt what it was in the 90's I just feel the overall presentation was better than. I dont need the drama aspect of it ( okay you got me I was conversing about Kyle Busch's... alleged issues last night), the drama and storyline should always be the race itself. The shills in the media and here want to act like NASCAR is a stick and ball sport with their "awesome playoff" system, well thats funny because anytime someone complains about something its always up in arms and a shout down, the secret is with stick and ball sports....... most franchises fan bases are miserable unless your the NFL New England Patriots, NBA Golden St Warriors, MLB Washington Nations or the NHL Penguins. So in closing if you want to be a big boy sport, deal with the incredulous fan base, keep telling them to shut their mouths or go away, there might not be any left one day to say that too.
 
Yeah well you can believe what ya want to believe. Gordon is on record recalling what was told to Earnhardt about not stinking up the show by leading too far ahead. To think that the other drivers didn't know that also back in the day is naive. So believe what ya want about the racing being better, I'm not saying it was or wasn't, but it doesn't apply to arguments today IMO. About the constant complainers. I honor their right to complain, I and a few others find humor when the facts are known and the foot goes into the mouth yet again one more time. It's entertaining, it's today and not 30 years ago, and part of the show these days.
 
Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, David Pearson, Cale Yarborough

Dale Earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Davey Allison

Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson,Carl Edwards, Tony Stewart
 
2 Sweet said:
Was the fanbase unhappy with everything back in the 90's? Were the fans complaining about everything back then when the sport's popularity was through the roof, every race selling out, new tracks being built?
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No. The few complaints back then were from non-Earnhardt fans that complained he was a dirty driver and nobody did anything about it and Earnhardt fans complaining about Gordon not being some tough guy.
 
I'm pretty sure there were plenty of complainers, you just didn't have to read them saying the same thing every day and they seem to feed off of one another. :p The internet gave them a voice. Look at politics, what an insane cluster that has turned into. Nascar is suffering the same fate.
 
StandOnIt said:
I'm pretty sure there were plenty of complainers, you just didn't have to read them saying the same thing every day and they seem to feed off of one another. :p The internet gave them a voice. Look at politics, what an insane cluster that has turned into. Nascar is suffering the same fate.
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The best thing about the internet is that everyone has a voice.
The worst thing about the internet is that everyone has a voice.
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah well you can believe what ya want to believe. Gordon is on record recalling what was told to Earnhardt about not stinking up the show by leading too far ahead. To think that the other drivers didn't know that also back in the day is naive. So believe what ya want about the racing being better, I'm not saying it was or wasn't, but it doesn't apply to arguments today IMO. About the constant complainers. I honor their right to complain, I and a few others find humor when the facts are known and the foot goes into the mouth yet again one more time. It's entertaining, it's today and not 30 years ago, and part of the show these days.
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but there's complainers in every walk of life and in every sport. Seriously some of the worst complainers are fan bases of certain teams, in Chicago before 2016 it was just plain misery to be a Cubs fan. This year as the Bears underachieve yet again after being told by the team and its players they were going for a Super Bowl this year, its almost hatred. The team at home at Solider Field literally gets booed off the field when they dont score on offense. NASCAR isnt any different than any other team or sport especially when some are wanting it to be treated like one... so my question is why when fans have an issue with NASCAR why is it called complaining, why is this treated than any other disgruntled fan base?
 
Spotter22 said:
Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, David Pearson, Cale Yarborough

Dale Earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Davey Allison

Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson,Carl Edwards, Tony Stewart
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great list of drivers there.
 
It's simple. NASCAR is not a stick and ball sport & it doesn't make sense to me to have a Championship finale against 32-36 other guys that are having to get out of the way for the top 4. Stick and ball sports are a team vs. team battle.

I'd much prefer a season long battle or some sort of 10 or 12 driver Chase with bonus points and regular season bonus points at the start.
 
AuzGrams said:
It's simple. NASCAR is not a stick and ball sport & it doesn't make sense to me to have a Championship finale against 32-36 other guys that are having to get out of the way for the top 4. Stick and ball sports are a team vs. team battle.

I'd much prefer a season long battle or some sort of 10 or 12 driver Chase with bonus points and regular season bonus points at the start.
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yes agree 100%. If it was a true playoff only the playoff drivers should be racing and we all know that would never happen, so therefore its not a true playoff. Maybe many fans see through that sham
 
Snappy D said:
yes agree 100%. If it was a true playoff only the playoff drivers should be racing and we all know that would never happen, so therefore its not a true playoff. Maybe many fans see through that sham
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There's your problem, reality.:D Until something is changed in the points system (and it already has had changes) it's a good idea to not confuse it with stick n ball. Some parts are similar, similar to many playoff systems used world wide, but thinking that racing has to be 100% like stick n ball is your problem. What IS in common is that all of the playoff systems have their flaws. Nothing is or will be perfect FWIW. Bottom line this year is that the four best teams had a runoff race for the title. Next year it could be different. It does seem, and I don't follow at all stick n ball for example, the sport of football, the same moneyed team or two continues to win, same with football that only the U.S calls it differently, probably baseball, meaning they all are pretty predictable with three maybe four teams out of all the rest doing the lions share of the winning. I'm not fatigued, it's reality.
 
StandOnIt said:
There's your problem, reality.:D Until something is changed in the points system (and it already has had changes) it's a good idea to not confuse it with stick n ball. Some parts are similar, similar to many playoff systems used world wide, but thinking that racing has to be 100% like stick n ball is your problem. What IS in common is that all of the playoff systems have their flaws. Nothing is or will be perfect FWIW. Bottom line this year is that the four best teams had a runoff race for the title. Next year it could be different. It does seem, and I don't follow at all stick n ball for example, the sport of football, the same moneyed team or two continues to win, same with football that only the U.S calls it differently, probably baseball, meaning they all are pretty predictable with three maybe four teams out of all the rest doing the lions share of the winning. I'm not fatigued, it's reality.
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fair enough. I personally didnt have a problem with the Championship 4, I would say a case could be made we had the right participants for the Championship. No complaints for me on that front. as an FYI the Nationals were a complete surprise to win the World Series this year, I dont think they had a top 10 payroll at least compared to the Astros, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Phillies and Cubs. But thats a convo for another day.
 
2 Sweet said:
And it's BS. NASCAR fans aren't any different than Indycar fans, NFL fans, MLB fans, or any other fanbase of any other sport.
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It is, there isn't a sport that doesn't have fans complaining about something. And, if any fanbase of any sport has earned the right to complain it's NASCAR fans that have stuck around through their decisions over the years.

Constructive "complaining" is honest feedback to the path of improvement. Without it, everything may seem hunky-dory, when it's not.
 
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