2020 Cup Series Camaro ZL1 1LE

Formerjackman said:
All Chevy did was make a production model change. They used a different model of Camaro with a different nose.
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So, you are suggesting that they wouldn't be running a new car without the new model?

Formerjackman said:
When they tried to push someone on a plate track, it kind of WAS dangerous.
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What the hell kind of engineers does Chevy have? They didn't know that when they built it. Alarming....and if it was dangerous (it wasn't--just stupid), don't push, and yell at said engineers for being idiots. That is amazing. We built a dangerous car, now let us build another one in the name of safety. Come on man.
 
Revman said:
So, you are suggesting that they wouldn't be running a new car without the new model?



What the hell kind of engineers does Chevy have? They didn't know that when they built it. Alarming....and if it was dangerous (it wasn't--just stupid), don't push, and yell at said engineers for being idiots. That is amazing. We built a dangerous car, now let us build another one in the name of safety. Come on man.
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The car was built based on the production model, where the pointed nose is not an issue, in fact it is not a issue ANYWHRE other than bump drafting at Daytona and Talladega. My guess either the importance of that was underestimated, or the race engineers were put in a box by the original design and how much NASCAR let then deviate from it. I don't know, but it is my guess that NASCAR would not have let Chevy change the race car unless they changed the street car. For whatever reason , Chevy decided to make the changes to a new sub-model of the car instead of the entire model line.
 
Aerodynamics is not Chevy’s issue.

Take the tapered spacers off and boost the HP and you’ll see more bowties in victory lane.

Constructing race winning setups for cars that bog power and offer late throttle response has been the crux, among losing higher skilled veteran drivers.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Aerodynamics is not Chevy’s issue.

Take the tapered spacers off and boost the HP and you’ll see more bowties in victory lane.

Constructing race winning setups for cars that bog power and offer late throttle response has been the crux, among losing higher skilled veteran drivers.
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I mean, that's seems more of a Chevy problem for not being able to adapt to the new package than anything else. Going in 2019, everyone knew the new package was going to drive differently, and they would have to focus on different parts of the car to gain speed.
 
SpeedPagan said:
I mean, that's seems more of a Chevy problem for not being able to adapt to the new package than anything else. Going in 2019, everyone knew the new package was going to drive differently, and they would have to focus on different parts of the car to gain speed.
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Manufacturers that did better homework and have better drivers/engineers excelled.
 
as has been said, it is a whole lot harder to modify anything with the OSS inspection system. Changes have to be approved so that could be some of the problem. Another was terrible timing. Building a car for one type of racing (low downforce) and Nascar changed the rules when the car debuted. They seemed to have pretty good speed qualifying, but in traffic they were a handful for the most part.
 
StandOnIt said:
I always pay attention to the new guys when they have a big wreck. Some of them slow down after a big wall shot. At the cup level it is usually when a driver gets older. I think Jimmie saw his life flash before his eyes at Pocono. That was a really bad hit. He probably would have never raced again if he had been in an older car.
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Forgot all about that. Prior to that wreck in 2017 he was a title favorite.

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Revman said:
I thought the OSS already exposed US.....and then didn't. Do one of those post searches of yours....I'm sure you will find one from you yammering about that.
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Of course the cars are "cheated" in that they have advantages that may or may not bend rules. But that's not an issue. Because everyone could do that. It's pro sports. There's always teams and people involved trying to push boundaries. Chevy did it. Ford did it. Toyota does it. They all do it. To think every manufacture doesn't look in the gray area to find advantages is a bit ignorant.

As for Chad's comments, yeah, you may be reading too much into that man. It honestly just reads like "we weren't able to do what we wanted to do and weren't prepared". You can't compare their inability to finding speed to Toyota's success in finding speed because everyone works differently. The Chevy engineers had gameplans and ways to find speed. They weren't able to do that, and were forced to try new things. Came out unprepared. Doesn't sound like BS. It just sounds like he's saying they were unprepared.

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Revman said:
Then, how can you not understand my point? You. Were. Pissed. Engineers cannot **** up the body. Chevy did. The blunder was not small. Huge....and they should be stuck for another year when the narrative is cost reduction. The optics are bad. This is competition. No participation trophies. BTW....MY Toyotas don't need a gold start, WE have the big trophies, but thanks anyway. If I was a Chevy guy, I would be massively embarrassed.
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And Chevy has wayyyyy more big trophies lol. FWIW, I've always been a Ford guy. You seem really fired up about this Rev. This all kind of just seems like the ebb and flow of the manufacture race in NASCAR.

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Ventisca said:
And you may ask yourself, well
How did I get here?

This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. What thread is this?
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Ventisca successfully hijacks the thread with The Talking Heads!!

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I'm surprised NASCAR approved the diveplane on the new Chevy nose. How long before Ford and Toyota cry foul?
 
StandOnIt said:
Building a car for one type of racing (low downforce) and Nascar changed the rules when the car debuted.
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How the hell can this be an excuse? When did the new Camry debut? Let's see....2017. What was the rule package then? Not what it is now....same as for Chevy. Now, I have to dust off this little guy again....

CRYING BABY.jpg
 
jaqua19 said:
And Chevy has wayyyyy more big trophies lol. FWIW, I've always been a Ford guy. You seem really fired up about this Rev. This all kind of just seems like the ebb and flow of the manufacture race in NASCAR.

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I love the cars of this sport unlike some who want them all the same so we can see that proverbial "great racing." As such, I think that the competition starts in the design studio. In this day, the tools are available to make sure that crap like what Chevy created doesn't happen. It did. Horrid blunder. Live with it for another year--especially when we hear all about saving money and parts freezes. Then, out of nowhere....a brand new car. Why? Because poor Chevy with all of those trophies can't win. Tough ****. I am really fired up about this, but it's fun. If Chevy does not dominate, it will be a huge embarrassment for them. Bring it on.
 
StandOnIt said:
Seems like you are the one doing all of the crying. ;)
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Damn straight. I want to bring back the manufacturer whining. Loved that stuff. Let's play with spoilers and stuff. Sandbagging. All of it. I loved it.
 
Revman said:
I love the cars of this sport unlike some who want them all the same so we can see that proverbial "great racing." As such, I think that the competition starts in the design studio. In this day, the tools are available to make sure that crap like what Chevy created doesn't happen. It did. Horrid blunder. Live with it for another year--especially when we hear all about saving money and parts freezes. Then, out of nowhere....a brand new car. Why? Because poor Chevy with all of those trophies can't win. Tough ****. I am really fired up about this, but it's fun. If Chevy does not dominate, it will be a huge embarrassment for them. Bring it on.
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Would it be a huge embarrassment?

I can only speak for my type of fan, but I feel drivers and organizations are way more important than manufactures. I think a huge chunk of the fans, and essentially ALL the GA does not care about what manufacture dominates. It's about the drivers. Especially now where the sport is in a tough spot market wise. I totally understand the arms race as you are dedicated Toyota fan. But I sincerely don't think a huge chunk of fans care about Chevy's success, and it's importance to NASCAR. My reaction to this news, along with many others I'm sure was "oh". The manufacture race is simply not important for the marketability and success of the sport imo. But I totally understand how this is like a home team for you, and that makes sense. Personally, I could care less what manufacture has an advantage. I care about which drivers DONT, but I don't care what manufacture has an advantage..if that makes any sense.

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Revman said:
Damn straight. I want to bring back the manufacturer whining. Loved that stuff. Let's play with spoilers and stuff. Sandbagging. All of it. I loved it.
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Ah I get it. You are fired up about a manufactures race when most people aren't these days.

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Well, for what it's worth, you can put me in the camp with Rev that VERY MUCH cares about the manufacturer battle. I might like you as a person, i might admire your talent, but if you don't drive a Chevy, you're dead to me. :)
 
Formerjackman said:
Well, for what it's worth, you can put me in the camp with Rev that VERY MUCH cares about the manufacturer battle. I might like you as a person, i might admire your talent, but if you don't drive a Chevy, you're dead to me. :)
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I get it, I just don't relate to it.

Is it "my driver (who is my driver because he drives for MY manufacture) won!"

Or

"MY manufacture won! So, my driver won by default!"

Or is it "my manufacture won! Doesn't matter who the driver is!"



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jaqua19 said:
I get it, I just don't relate to it.

Is it "my driver (who is my driver because he drives for MY manufacture) won!"

Or

"MY manufacture won! So, my driver won by default!"

Or is it "my manufacture won! Doesn't matter who the driver is!"



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How about if we make it simple to grasp. for Example, The Hendrick 24 team won and that includes the organization, the team including the driver and the bad fast Chevy. OK?
 
jaqua19 said:
I get it, I just don't relate to it.

Is it "my driver (who is my driver because he drives for MY manufacture) won!"

Or

"MY manufacture won! So, my driver won by default!"

Or is it "my manufacture won! Doesn't matter who the driver is!"



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You don't get to become MY driver unless you drive a Chevy. If you stop driving a Chevy, you are no longer MY driver. If one of my drivers can't win, then I pull for any other driver that drives a Chevy unless I REALLY don't like them for some reason. I am also very much a team supporter. As a HMS guy, I will generally support any driver they hire unless there is a really compelling reason not to (like Kyle Busch).
 
Formerjackman said:
Well, for what it's worth, you can put me in the camp with Rev that VERY MUCH cares about the manufacturer battle. I might like you as a person, i might admire your talent, but if you don't drive a Chevy, you're dead to me. :)
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I cannot respect a post more. Love this.....and I think we need more of it. To this point....If Kyle Busch was in a Chevy or Ford, he would be another guy my Toyotas need to beat. I really like all manufacturer first fans whether it's Chevy, Ford, or Toyota. I have said before that Toyota hasn't been doing this long enough to be part of the conversation (argument?), but I admire the Ford/Chevy banter. I seek manufacturer first fans out at the track, and have had a blast talking to them 100% of the time. As a group, we tend to not get caught up in the driver personality drama, and the conversation stays on performance. I think that the reason NASCAR has gravitated away from the manufacturer conversation is because it has marketed the **** out of the drivers. I am hoping that manufacturer talk comes back with the Next Gen car.
 
jaqua19 said:
Or is it "my manufacture won! Doesn't matter who the driver is!"
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My manufacturer won, and it doesn't matter who the driver is....kind of.....Kyle Busch is my favorite, and he will remain so as long as he stays in the Toyota.
 
jaqua19 said:
Would it be a huge embarrassment?

I can only speak for my type of fan, but I feel drivers and organizations are way more important than manufactures. I think a huge chunk of the fans, and essentially ALL the GA does not care about what manufacture dominates. It's about the drivers. Especially now where the sport is in a tough spot market wise. I totally understand the arms race as you are dedicated Toyota fan. But I sincerely don't think a huge chunk of fans care about Chevy's success, and it's importance to NASCAR. My reaction to this news, along with many others I'm sure was "oh". The manufacture race is simply not important for the marketability and success of the sport imo. But I totally understand how this is like a home team for you, and that makes sense. Personally, I could care less what manufacture has an advantage. I care about which drivers DONT, but I don't care what manufacture has an advantage..if that makes any sense.

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I think the NASCAR fandom is due for an overhaul. I am hoping for the Next Gen fan along with the Next Gen car....and that includes more manufacturer loyalty. I really believe that driver first fans should care about what their driver is driving---especially last year because if he wasn't in a Toyota, he didn't have the same chance of winning as if he was. Also, the manufacturer is the cornerstone of this sport. Take the OEM's away, and what have you got? Not much IMO from a business or marketing perspective. You race to sell cars....still IMO. Toyota has some pretty impressive data to prove it. Roughly a third of all Toyota buyers reference NASCAR involvement as a reason for considering Toyota. Not bad when you consider how many cars and trucks Toyota sells.
 
Since this weekend was the Rolex 24, it's a good time to point out that sportscar racing is VERY manufacturer driven as far as fandom, to the point that you have Corvette and Porsche and Ferrari corrals in parking lot for the fans to park their cars. Stick and ball fans tend to be MUCH more team driven than individual driven too. Now don't misunderstand me, if you are a driver focused fan, that's perfectly fine with me and I think there is plenty of room for both types without having to think the other type of fan is goofy. Racing needs MORE fans, and while the why is interesting, it's less important than just the fact that they are.
 
jaqua19 said:
Would it be a huge embarrassment?

I can only speak for my type of fan, but I feel drivers and organizations are way more important than manufactures. I think a huge chunk of the fans, and essentially ALL the GA does not care about what manufacture dominates. It's about the drivers. Especially now where the sport is in a tough spot market wise. I totally understand the arms race as you are dedicated Toyota fan. But I sincerely don't think a huge chunk of fans care about Chevy's success, and it's importance to NASCAR. My reaction to this news, along with many others I'm sure was "oh". The manufacture race is simply not important for the marketability and success of the sport imo. But I totally understand how this is like a home team for you, and that makes sense. Personally, I could care less what manufacture has an advantage. I care about which drivers DONT, but I don't care what manufacture has an advantage..if that makes any sense.

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I believe you said you were a Ford guy
M-Sport Ford WRT: 250 consecutive manufacturer points finishes!

 
I follow my driver Brad K. He was Chevy with Junior and should have stayed Chevy with HMS however Rick decided different and he so he went with Penske in a Dodge and now drives a Ford. I am still a Chevy fan but I cheer for Brad during the races.
 
Team Penske said:
I follow my driver Brad K. He was Chevy with Junior and should have stayed Chevy with HMS however Rick decided different and he so he went with Penske in a Dodge and now drives a Ford. I am still a Chevy fan but I cheer for Brad during the races.
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Not that it really matters, but I think Brad was the one who decided that. He COULD have waited a year until the 5 seat opened up, but chose not to. It's hard to say he made the wrong choice, but it was his choice. Most good athletes need an edge, and Brad being butt hurt over being "snubbed" by HMS is one of the things that has driven him to succeed.
 
Formerjackman said:
Not that it really matters, but I think Brad was the one who decided that. He COULD have waited a year until the 5 seat opened up, but chose not to. It's hard to say he made the wrong choice, but it was his choice. Most good athletes need an edge, and Brad being butt hurt over being "snubbed" by HMS is one of the things that has driven him to succeed.
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I disagree but that is normal. He was a poor kid who watched his family go bankrupt because of racing. His move to take a ride with Penske was a smart one and it resulted in him winning Dodge's last championship as well as help his own family financially. His involvement in the Truck Series produced some good young drivers. To bad Ford dropped the ball.
 
OK, you've lost me. You said you wanted him to stay at HMS, but Rick said no. I believe he absolutely could have stayed at HMS, he just would have had to wait a year for a full time ride. Rick didn't want to lose him. Brad was the one that decided to talk to Roger. I am not saying, nor would I say that was a bad move, just that it was Brad's decision to move on from HMS. I was a fan of Brad, and didn't want him to leave either, but I've grown a little weary of hearing him keep bringing up how bent out of shape he was about not getting the 5 car when he was supposedly promised. He's been pretty snarky about HMS ever since, and I'm a little tired of it. Given the option of putting a future Hall of Famer who just won a bunch of races and nearly won a championship for you for one more year, or putting in a largely unproven rookie in, I think that was a pretty obvious choice. History has shown that Rick takes care of his people, and he would have taken care of Brad, but he decided to take another offer. It worked out a lot better for him than it did HMS, so I don't know what he has to be unhappy about.
 
StandOnIt said:
EPUMjbGXUAA7vaj.jpg:large
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There is a puddle of drool right next to his left foot as he mutters, "Thank you NASCAR, thank you NASCAR, thank you NASCAR." Tremendous pressure. You don't win with this, I contend that you really suck. I cannot imagine what NASCAR gave them.
 
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