23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

antman12 said:
Youth hockey it probably the worst of the big 4. The cost of equipment and team fees are higher than the other sports and there's just as many camps and specialized training sessions. Not to mention the private high schools.

Sure, you can buy budget equipment but without the specialized training you'll be quickly passed.

Its truly became a sport of the elites.

Apologies for getting off topic.
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I don't know enough about hockey but that makes sense in the context of how many young hockey players are now coming of age in places like Dallas. They and baseball both also have the benefit of developing economies producing elite talent that they can just nab, which has led to both leagues putting less than full effort into growing development ladders for non-wealthy parents here.
 
virtualbalboa said:
Absolutely. Sorry you were the one that initiated that discussion! 🤷‍♂️
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SOI...

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The Nature Boy said:
This hasn’t been the case at big time schools since at least the 80s. In the pre-NIL days, schools were caught outright faking classes.
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virtualbalboa said:
College football - not the NFL, the college game - was the second biggest sport by attendance and public interest for the first half of the 20th century. It was only after the 1955 NFL championship game that anyone seriously considered them peers, and obviously in the post-1970s era the NFL is now tops. But in terms of "what did athletes expect in college sports?" I mean, that's a complex thing to answer. SMU got the "death sentence" (program shut down briefly by NCAA) in the 1980s for having a literal payroll for players like future HOFer Eric Dickerson. Some athletes are there for an education. Many are there because college is the only place to ply their craft (e.g. wrestling or swimming) and still others are in college because Adidas signed them as a 12 year old and told them they were going to an Adidas school to play basketball for at least 1 season.
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You all are probably quite younger than this old guy. I was referring to college athletics “in the beginning.” Completely agree with what your saying about how it has developed.
In any case, I seriously doubt any antitrust lawsuit will change the sport of NASCAR anywhere close to the impact of NIL.
 
DIDIT said:
You all are probably quite younger than this old guy. I was referring to college athletics “in the beginning.” Completely agree with what your saying about how it has developed.
In any case, I seriously doubt any antitrust lawsuit will change the sport of NASCAR anywhere close to the impact of NIL.
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I don't think it is possible for NASCAR to be affected by that degree. I do think, however, that it might be within the realm of reality that we'd see things like midweek or off season special events promoted by RTA and better collaboration between NASCAR and other sanctioning bodies who might want to use their tracks.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Their lawyers have to respond to the complaint.
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I'm gonna say this again...was my understanding creation of charters was so if a team owner decided to quit he had something to sell. For more than pennies-on-the-dollar. I don't know when the guaranteed starting position thing got added nor do I see how it hurts anyone. If say Toyota decided to get in the Nascar business, they likely wouldn't start out running top 5? Maybe have serious issues getting engines to survive. Should they be able to buy their way into the starting field?

Oh wait?
 
virtualbalboa said:
I don't think it is possible for NASCAR to be affected by that degree. I do think, however, that it might be within the realm of reality that we'd see things like midweek or off season special events promoted by RTA and better collaboration between NASCAR and other sanctioning bodies who might want to use their tracks.
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This is the best case scenario. The courts could force a “breakup” of NASCAR and who knows what that looks like. It could involve selling the tracks or it could involve giving teams an ownership stake in the company.

This is all uncharted waters. This could cause a real disruption to stock car racing in America.
 
I always think. You mean you were stupid enough to get into something like this in the first place? Then you pony up after the fact, build a multi million dollar facility and are wanting to add a third car and now you say the whole thing is unfair? lol, you are idiots. But again that is just my opinion of the whole thing and I seriously doubt it is going to change even if the stick and ballers and the little dog too win the thing.
 
The Nature Boy said:
This is the best case scenario. The courts could force a “breakup” of NASCAR and who knows what that looks like. It could involve selling the tracks or it could involve giving teams an ownership stake in the company.

This is all uncharted waters. This could cause a real disruption to stock car racing in America.
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Assume for a moment they "break up NASCAR":

-If NASCAR has to spin the tracks off.....so what? They were independent until 2019 anyhow and reported their finances publicly because they were public entities trading on NASDAQ.

-If the tracks have to make money independently and aren't as reliant on NASCAR TV money because their portion of the split is lower....so what? We've already had consolidation of track operations and closures of places like Kentucky, Fontana, and Chicagoland which were perceived as not being able to generate sufficient revenue to stay open. I don't see how it gets worse. I do see how tracks might have to answer the phone from Indycar or CARS Tour or anyone else who might want to book a track now. That isn't a net negative to me.

-If NASCAR has to spin off something like ARCA or permit the usage of the Nextgen car in another series/race....so what? Cup cars were used in ARCA races until the COT and it only led to both series being significantly healthier.

-If they have to spin off the series from the sanctioning body....so what? F1 has operated this way since what, 1982? They've only become the most successful motorsports league in the world since then.
 
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virtualbalboa said:
Everyone who is so certain NASCAR has nothing to be concerned about will know one way or another soon enough. No point in speculating further unless you have a law degree.
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Well, that didn't last long lol.
virtualbalboa said:
Assume for a moment they "break up NASCAR":

-If NASCAR has to spin the tracks off.....so what? They were independent until 2019 anyhow and reported their finances publicly because they were public entities trading on NASDAQ.

-If the tracks have to make money independently and aren't as reliant on NASCAR TV money because their portion of the split is lower....so what? We've already had consolidation of track operations and closures of places like Kentucky, Fontana, and Chicagoland which were perceived as not being able to generate sufficient revenue to stay open. I don't see how it gets worse. I do see how tracks might have to answer the phone from Indycar or CARS Tour or anyone else who might want to book a track now. That isn't a net negative to me.

-If NASCAR has to spin off something like ARCA or permit the usage of the Nextgen car in another series/race....so what? Cup cars were used in ARCA races until the COT and it only led to both series being significantly healthier.

-If they have to spin off the series from the sanctioning body....so what? F1 has operated this way since what, 1982? They've only become the most successful motorsports league in the world since then.
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Formerjackman said:
Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't turn out like we hope. Giving the athletes what they deserve may kill the very system that gives it to them. The same may be able to be said about the NASCAR charters.
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‘NIL’ as it is in practice really has very little to do with what NIL was supposed to be in theory simply because the NCAA kicked the can down the road long enough that there was no structure for regulations and enforcement when the judgments finally came down against them. That’s their fault. With any luck, the proposed House settlement and implementation of actual revenue sharing will rein in the effects of ‘NIL’ to a degree.

Getting back on topic, Kessler is simply a proven winner and he means business. 23XI and FRM got the right guy on their side.
 
UPDATE 2: In a teleconference Wednesday morning with reporters, Kessler said that this case has similarities with other sports antitrust litigation where a fundamentally unfair system has been created for the participants. But this case also has a major difference – the France family (one small group of individuals) controls NASCAR.

“There is no other major sport where one family has run that sport as its own personal fee stub and piggy bank the way that NASCAR has been run,” Kessler said.

“We will see what impact that has in terms of how they try to defend themselves. We will see what impact that has in terms of whether it’s possible to settle this case or whether we have to take it all the way through trial — either way, we’re prepared to do what’s necessary to effectuate change.”

…

Both teams said they would continue with their 2025 plans.

— Fox Sports —
 
virtualbalboa said:
Assume for a moment they "break up NASCAR":

-If NASCAR has to spin the tracks off.....so what? They were independent until 2019 anyhow and reported their finances publicly because they were public entities trading on NASDAQ.

-If the tracks have to make money independently and aren't as reliant on NASCAR TV money because their portion of the split is lower....so what? We've already had consolidation of track operations and closures of places like Kentucky, Fontana, and Chicagoland which were perceived as not being able to generate sufficient revenue to stay open. I don't see how it gets worse. I do see how tracks might have to answer the phone from Indycar or CARS Tour or anyone else who might want to book a track now. That isn't a net negative to me.

-If NASCAR has to spin off something like ARCA or permit the usage of the Nextgen car in another series/race....so what? Cup cars were used in ARCA races until the COT and it only led to both series being significantly healthier.

-If they have to spin off the series from the sanctioning body....so what? F1 has operated this way since what, 1982? They've only become the most successful motorsports league in the world since then.
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The issue more or less is what these things look like in practice. We don’t know how it looks for NASCAR. Could be good, could be bad. It could be an unmitigated trainwreck.
 
aunty dive said:
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Whatever this suit is or isn’t, understand that Kessler is going to frame this in the best possible light for his clients, and villainize NASCAR as part of that. How much is egregious or unlawful will be decided in the courts or via settlement.

BUT, make no mistake…these two teams went nuclear on NASCAR with this filing. How NASCAR plays it is going to be interesting. Think they want two teams full of owners/drivers bellowing weekly about mean old NASCAR in front of cameras? I guarantee you if there is any legal way to restrict them from participating further either this season or especially next season they will do it. Not saying they can…but who knows?
 
StandOnIt said:
If those clowns figure out a way to break up Nascar, some of these gung ho ers will be singing a different tune.
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The underlying assumption is that any break up would be handled competently. If NASCAR has to sell tracks and/or spinoff a series, there are a million ways it could go wrong, depending on who buys either.
 
StandOnIt said:
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Preach Larry Mac:

"We've got an organization that's been here not even four years that all of a sudden is saying 'we gotta change the way NASCAR's run'. I'm all about change. Change is what makes you better. But you know what? When I see Richard Childress, Jake Roush, Rick Hendrick, and Joe Gibbs that's been here longer than some of these guys have been pooping yellow ... and they signed off and said this is good ... we're okay. There's things we don't like about it but we're going to do what's best for the sport and best for our business. And they signed off on it and these people that have been A. either not competitive or only been here for four and a half years have been saying the way we've done business for 76 and a half years is wrong"
 
In my opinion, the biggest threat in this case is the new TV rights deal. What happens if this lawsuit forces a radical restructuring, or sell off of tracks or defines new ownership elements? That my friends could be called “breach of contract” and kill the new golden goose. Seriously, think a break up of NASCAR makes these networks comfortable with what the different product becomes? I guarantee there are contingencies built into the new agreement for every possible calamity.

This is a nuclear missile aimed right into the middle of this sport. No way to know the fallout from any of it.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
"This the way we've always done it so it must be the right / best /only way."

Larry, I'm not on the teams' side but that's a weak argument.
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The NASCAR governance model is definitely broken. Dennis and company have set off a nuclear bomb though.

I would rather give the drivers and crew members more power through a collective bargaining unit.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
"This the way we've always done it so it must be the right / best /only way."

Larry, I'm not on the teams' side but that's a weak argument.
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There is something to the fact most teams signed up. Was it because they were getting more out of the deal or just simply knowing their place?

This can blow up spectacularly for these two teams. Worst case scenario the sport itself gets blown up.

From an outside perspective, this is a juicy one. Chaos either way.
 
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