23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

[StandOnIt]

From above article.
This is just one part that I found interesting.
The anti-competitive practices listed in the lawsuit are: NASCAR buying a majority of premier racetracks that are exclusive to NASCAR races; imposing exclusivity deals on NASCAR-sanctioned tracks; 1. NASCAR acquiring a competitor, the ARCA Menards Series (which prevented it from growing into a more sustainable competitor while instead becoming a NASCAR feeder series);2. preventing teams from participating in other stock car racing series; 3.NASCAR retaining ownership of Next Gen parts and pieces while forcing teams to buy those parts and pieces from NASCAR chosen single-source suppliers.

1. ARCA was brokeish at the time and going nowhere and the owner of the series was friends of the Frances and wanted to sell. In essence, Nascar saved the series and it
is doing better.
2. Jordan could build a car and compete in ARCA tomorrow. The Trackhouse owner Justin Marks competes in the GT series.
3. Many suppliers are Nascar teams lol. Who better than the wizards who work at the teams. It's cheaper than everybody building the same part individually and easier on the smaller teams. They aren't building tennis shoes, numerical control machines don't come cheap.

 

[CaptainHiTop]

To be fair, that’s probably just because those players aren’t wise with their money.

Literally the first line in the article he keeps referring to:

1)Lack of competent financial planning advice–Athletes are no different than any other college grads in that they were not trained as undergrads in budgeting, the tax system, and long term financial planning

 

[aunty dive]

I think that since both teams are young and just bought into this as well as being in talks to buy from haas tells the story on nascars side that if it was so bad just walk away and quit expanding

Bob Jenkins has been running cars in the Cup Series for 20 years.

 

[StandOnIt]

Bob Jenkins has been running cars in the Cup Series for 20 years.

with 4 wins. It's irrelevant.

 

[virtualbalboa]

IMO, Jordan, Hamcrap and Jenkins are seeking to push NASCAR into a league model similar to stick & ball, where they own their teams as a franchise and direct much more of the revenue $ to themselves verses the league or tracks. It’s always about the money. They want their franchise forever and the right to make many millions back when they sell it. Maybe these teams deserve that. But they never paid NASCAR a dime for the charters, because those were not intended to be an owned asset. This will be part of the evidence and discovery, and it may diminish some claims from the plaintiffs.

That's true, but that's also a decision NASCAR made. I can't reasonably argue that NASCAR didn't intend for charters to be an owned asset because that was the very purpose of introducing them to begin with.

As to the plaintiff’s claim that these teams cannot race in any other series, or that the car itself is so specialized that it helps constitute their monopoly?

The complaint is that the NextGen car is the intellectual property of NASCAR and cannot be driven in any other races of any kind. ARCA used to be full of Cup cars when they had the same basic rule set outside motors. There's plenty of historical precedent here to allow NextGen cars to be run in another competition. In the past, the RTA has specifically indicated interest in organizing independent events of NASCAR. For some people, I imagine this is an issue, though it is unclear to me why I would be negatively affected if RTA ran a midweek exhibition sprint series.

There is precedent for that…can NBA players also play for other pro leagues? No. Sports leagues can dictate participation requirements.

NBA players can absolutely play in other pro leagues if their teams wanted them to and farmed them out. I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but the US has "minor league" professional sports, and those teams are not necessarily or even frequently owned by the "major league" team with which it is affiliated. NBA players are sent to play for independently owned G League teams all the time. American teams don't send guys out on loan to other teams in other leagues (which is how the rest of the world operates) because we aren't structured that way. We don't need to be.

One of their strongest claims IMO relates to how NASCAR purchased a number of the racetracks they compete on. That could be construed as a conflict of interest, although proving how that restricts opportunity to participate in NASCAR events would be difficult. Look at how many non-owned tracks get added into the schedule. NASCAR has also cut races out from tracks they own, which helps their case.

That will be NASCAR's argument: hey, we closed Chicagoland and Fontana. Of course, the flipside to that is "Were either made for sale to interested parties for running a race track?" What do you think the likelihood is that they did that considering how ISC approached Nazareth and Pikes Peak? Because those two tracks would also wind up being a relevant thing to point out here.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Literally the first line in the article he keeps referring to:

1)Lack of competent financial planning advice–Athletes are no different than any other college grads in that they were not trained as undergrads in budgeting, the tax system, and long term financial planning

Race car drivers these days actually have less education on average than pro athletes (on paper). It's irrelevant though because their families are wealthy and that's why they are less likely to go broke. They're not building wealth racing. They're usually spending it.

 

[StandOnIt]

Literally the first line in the article he keeps referring to:

1)Lack of competent financial planning advice–Athletes are no different than any other college grads in that they were not trained as undergrads in budgeting, the tax system, and long term financial planning

That is an excuse, not a fact from the article. I know you boys love your stick and ball and it pains ya when all of the hoopla publicity making headlines are what the top guys are getting paid insane sums of money, but most of the grunts are broke in 2 years after a short career. Successful race car drivers don't make that, but good ones have long careers, make decent money and aren't broke over a long period of time. Turtle and the hare. Comparing stick and ball to racing...fail.

 

[aunty dive]

Bob Jenkins has been running cars in the Cup Series for 20 years.

with 4 wins. It's irrelevant.

Both facts are irrelevant to the matters at hand.

My point is that Front Row is not a “young team”.

 

[virtualbalboa]

That is an excuse, not a fact from the article. I know you boys love your stick and ball and it pains ya when all of the hoopla publicity making headlines are what the top guys are getting paid insane sums of money, but most of the grunts are broke in 2 years after a short career. Successful race car drivers don't make that, but good ones have long careers, make decent money and aren't broke over a long period of time. Turtle and the hare. Comparing stick and ball to racing...fail.

Corey Lajoie can have a long career in NASCAR and most of the money in his bank account when he retires will be from things outside of the racing seat. Like the racing seat itself.

 

[CaptainHiTop]

That is an excuse, not a fact from the article. I know you boys love your stick and ball and it pains ya when all of the hoopla publicity making headlines are what the top guys are getting paid insane sums of money, but most of the grunts are broke in 2 years after a short career. Successful race car drivers don't make that, but good ones have long careers, make decent money and aren't broke over a long period of time. Turtle and the hare. Comparing stick and ball to racing...fail.

Literally the first line. Also you made the comparison. I quoted the first line from the article YOU posted. Gaslighting extraordinaire. How did you put it? Fail.

 

[StandOnIt]

Both facts are irrelevant to the matters at hand.

My point is that Front Row is not a “young team”.

His point was why if it is so bad are they expanding. the time factor wasn't correct I know, but I got his point. I have said the same thing myself. It's an important point. Both teams knew what the future contract was and they expanded anyway. That isn't a great point in their favor in court.

 

[The Nature Boy]

most of the grunts are broke in 2 years after a short career.

Isn’t this the case for a lot of guys who wash out in racing too? Does anyone know the financial situation of Kevin Conway?

The only reason we can’t answer this question is because no one in the mainstream cares about backmarkers.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Isn’t this the case for a lot of guys who wash out in racing too? Does anyone know the financial situation of Kevin Conway?

The only reason we can’t answer this question is because no one in the mainstream cares about backmarkers.

Conway raced sports cars for awhile (he was running multiple classes with SRO America in 2023). Looks like he's selling whatever the hell this is:

The Ultimate Protection For Every Device and Every Adventure.

Made from NASA technology to help prevent your devices from overheating in the sun and insulate your devices from freezing in the cold. This floating phone case also provides military-grade drop protection in a slim, lightweight design.

phoozy.com

Most backmarkers just go do "backmarker things" - live off their parent's wealth, work in their parent's business, sell real estate, run a crypto pump and dump, get killed trying to murder their ex wife, the usual.

 

[StandOnIt]

Isn’t this the case for a lot of guys who wash out in racing too? Does anyone know the financial situation of Kevin Conway?

The only reason we can’t answer this question is because no one in the mainstream cares about backmarkers.

seriously doubt it is anywhere close to 80%. Where are they going to go what are they going to do. Where is a spot for an over the hill stick and ball player? Race car people can do fabricating, crew chiefing, run lower or different series, Wallace, Kahne, etc.

 

[aunty dive]

His point was why if it is so bad are they expanding. the time factor wasn't correct I know, but I got his point. I have said the same thing myself. It's an important point. Both teams knew what the future contract was and the expanded anyway. That isn't a great point in their favor in court.

I’ll guess that both teams made their plans before talks collapsed and NASCAR flatly refused to make charters permanent assets for their holders. I really don’t know.

Here’s what we all know… these two plaintiffs, through their reputable lawyer, have charged that NASCAR has violated, and continues to violate anti-trust laws.

I’ll make another guess … these issues will be resolved before any of them see the inside of the courtroom and the resolution(s) will accrue to the holders of all 36 charters. Naturally, I could be wrong.

 

[virtualbalboa]

seriously doubt it is anywhere close to 80%. Where are they going to go what are they going to do. Where is a spot for an over the hill stick and ball player? Race car people can do fabricating, crew chiefing, run lower or different series, Wallace, Kahne, etc.

You can be over the hill (or were never good) and race in NASCARs top series as long as you have a car. Norm Benning treated NASCAR as supplemental income/a hobby when he wasn't working as a commercial pilot. There's no comparisons to stick and ball sports. IDK why we keep going down this road.

 

[Kiante]

Bob Jenkins has been running cars in the Cup Series for 20 years.

Are you serious right now?

Oh now it depends on the organization and wins they have, goodness gracious. That irrelevant in this situation.

Let HMS say something and the tone would flip instantaneously

 

[virtualbalboa]

Are you serious right now?

Oh now it depends on the organization and wins they have, goodness gracious. That irrelevant in this situation.

Let HMS say something and the tone would flip instantaneously

Would it? Then it's just "If they're mad about spending money they should spend less."

 

[StandOnIt]

I’ll guess that both teams made their plans before talks collapsed and NASCAR flatly refused to make charters permanent assets for their holders. I really don’t know.

Here’s what we all know… these two plaintiffs, through their reputable lawyer, have charged that NASCAR has violated, and continues to violate anti-trust laws.

I’ll make another guess … these issues will be resolved before any of them see the inside of the courtroom and the resolution(s) will accrue to the holders of all 36 charters. Naturally, I could be wrong.

I wouldn't doubt it and I hope it is so. Michael Jordan is a racing fan, he loves racing and he doesn't want to leave. I also don't think Nascar is going to push to take his charters away and the court deal is a way for Nascar to save face for threatening to take them away in the first place. And yeah I could be wrong also.

 

[Kiante]

Would it? Then it's just "If they're mad about spending money they should spend less."

Rick Hendrick spoke about being "tired" after these talks.

MJ and Bob Jenkins think the organizations have been unfairly treated in terms of revenue split. Honestly, I need to read the document in its entirety as well, so I won't say much until I read all 40+ pages of it.

This could have been avoided, but this goes deeper than just charters.

 

[virtualbalboa]

I’ll guess that both teams made their plans before talks collapsed and NASCAR flatly refused to make charters permanent assets for their holders. I really don’t know.

Here’s what we all know… these two plaintiffs, through their reputable lawyer, have charged that NASCAR has violated, and continues to violate anti-trust laws.

I’ll make another guess … these issues will be resolved before any of them see the inside of the courtroom and the resolution(s) will accrue to the holders of all 36 charters. Naturally, I could be wrong.

I don't think you can say it's a guess, actually. The lawsuit says the purchase agreement between 23XI and SHR was made on August 7. The lawsuit says the agreement between FRM and SHR was made in May 2024. Both predate NASCAR demanding the charter agreement be signed.

 

[jaqua19]

Preach Larry Mac:

"We've got an organization that's been here not even four years that all of a sudden is saying 'we gotta change the way NASCAR's run'. I'm all about change. Change is what makes you better. But you know what? When I see Richard Childress, Jake Roush, Rick Hendrick, and Joe Gibbs that's been here longer than some of these guys have been pooping yellow ... and they signed off and said this is good ... we're okay. There's things we don't like about it but we're going to do what's best for the sport and best for our business. And they signed off on it and these people that have been A. either not competitive or only been here for four and a half years have been saying the way we've done business for 76 and a half years is wrong"

So LarryMac is a shill, or a bonehead. Expected better from him

 

[StandOnIt]

Rick Hendrick spoke about being "tired" after these talks.

MJ and Bob Jenkins think the organizations have been unfairly treated in terms of revenue split. Honestly, I need to read the document in its entirety as well, so I won't say much until I read all 40+ pages of it.

This could have been avoided, but this goes deeper than just charters.

It could? It does? How so.

 

[StandOnIt]

So LarryMac is a shill, or a bonehead. Expected better from him

I would wager to guess that Larry Mac has forgot more about Nascar that you or I know.

 

[aunty dive]

Are you serious right now?

Oh now it depends on the organization and wins they have, goodness gracious. That irrelevant in this situation.

Let HMS say something and the tone would flip instantaneously

I stated a fact in order to refute a claim that FRM is a “young team”.

Nowhere have I suggested that tenure or team performance has anything to do with this.

 

[StandOnIt]

I stated a fact in order to refute a claim that FRM is a “young team”.

Nowhere have I suggested that tenure or team performance has anything to do with this.

He jumps right in the middle of something and he doesn't know diddly. I guess I'll be next lol.

 

[Kiante]

I stated a fact in order to refute a claim that FRM is a “young team”.

Nowhere have I suggested that tenure or team performance has anything to do with this.

I misquoted the wrong post.

Mistake on my part.

 

[aunty dive]

No problem.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

1. ARCA was brokeish at the time and going nowhere and the owner of the series was friends of the Frances and wanted to sell. In essence, Nascar saved the series and it
is doing better.

Correct about NASCAR saving ARCA. Doing better is subjective though.

2. Jordan could build a car and compete in ARCA tomorrow. The Trackhouse owner Justin Marks competes in the GT series.

But, if a rival series not affiliated with NASCAR came along and competed with NASCAR, they would not be able to run, and that series would not be able to run at NASCAR or SMI tracks.

3. Many suppliers are Nascar teams lol. Who better than the wizards who work at the teams. It's cheaper than everybody building the same part individually and easier on the smaller teams. They aren't building tennis shoes, numerical control machines don't come cheap.

It's still all dictated by NASCAR.

 

[AndyMarquisLive]

In some ways, they're going to throw everything at the wall.

NASCAR will probably settle because they don't want to have to open their books in discovery.

 

[KTMLew01]

“Predatory business practices” will be easy to prove.
We don’t have to agree.

Wrong. SOI has last word on everything NASCAR. You should know better.

 

[KTMLew01]

Great write up. Along those highlighted lines. Some teams have no problem with their driver racing in other racing series and they do. Another point about the lawyers hit parade about unfair monopoly. They said because Nascar doesn't allow other series to race on their tracks? 1. Who wants to? Late models on a 1.5? or a road course? Are you kidding me. These lawyers prove they don't know much about auto racing, but like many fans they are always trying to compare it to stick and ball and Jordan is trying to make it a stick and ball business model IMO.

Not what Lawyer said but don't let facts get in your way of supporting NASCAR.

 

[StandOnIt]

1. Correct about NASCAR saving ARCA. Doing better is subjective though.



2.But, if a rival series not affiliated with NASCAR came along and competed with NASCAR, they would not be able to run, and that series would not be able to run at NASCAR or SMI tracks.



3. It's still all dictated by NASCAR.

1. It is doing better, car counts are way up.
2. What rival series. There isn't one.
3. what the hell are you talking about? That was all decided in conjunction with the RTA and Nascar who builds what.

 

[virtualbalboa]

Since we have a quick derailment about how former NASCAR drivers don't go broke, I figured I'd look at who those drivers are from recent years in case there's some sort of common strand:

Quin Houff: Dad Zane owns and operates a large agricultural logistics (shipping cattle) company.
Matt Tifft: Dad Quinten recently divested of a clinical research data business and is a partner in a investment firm called Redwing Blackbird Ventures that is interested in "web3"
Gray Gaulding: Dad Dwayne was VP of NTS Motorsports, and previously ran a talent agency
Terry Cook: Racing lifer
TJ Bell: Didn't find much, but he's a realtor now in addition to spotting on weekends, with a Instagram page featuring he and his family in front of a bunch of expensive places. I have a feeling being a journeyman driver didn't pay for that.
Alex Kennedy: Was in school when he was racing part time. "Came up through road racing and karting" which tells me all I need to know.
Josh Wise: Started a consultancy business, now works for JR Motorsports and Chip Ganassi for driver coaching. Couldn't find much about the parentage other than his dad played high school basketball.
Timmy Hill: His dad was a backmarker and so is he
Stanton Barrett: Literally a stuntman

These are the guys who made it to qualify in recent years for ROTY in Cup and never stuck around. I could go deeper with never-weres that barely or didn't make it that far, but we already know what the deal is with Anthony Alfredo, the Grays, Sam Mayer, Zane Smith, et al. I am fully fine with never having this discussion again! You already know what the difference is between stick and ball sports and racing in terms of getting in!

 

[jaqua19]

I cannot believe people are on the side of NASCAR and shaming 23XI for this.

Absurd lol

 

[virtualbalboa]

Correct about NASCAR saving ARCA. Doing better is subjective though.

My issue with the "NASCAR saved ARCA" claim is that it indicates there is evidence no one else would have bought ARCA's assets. I am not nearly as certain about that as some folks here are. It's also a bit amusing to me to see ARCA in the state it is as "saved". It is a Frankenstein's Monster series built from parts of the corpses of Winston West, Busch North, and ARCA.

 

[StandOnIt]

In some ways, they're going to throw everything at the wall.

NASCAR will probably settle because they don't want to have to open their books in discovery.

They did and most of it is easily defended. The ARCA stuff is complete nonsense.

 

[The Nature Boy]

My issue with the "NASCAR saved ARCA" claim is that it indicates there is evidence no one else would have bought ARCA's assets. I am not nearly as certain about that as some folks here are. It's also a bit amusing to me to see ARCA in the state it is as "saved". It is a Frankenstein's Monster series built from parts of the corpses of Winston West, Busch North, and ARCA.

Calling ARCA a legitimate series is almost laughable. It’s a rich kid hobbyist league with a few legitimate prospects.

NASCAR put it on life support, they didn’t really save it.

 

[StandOnIt]

My issue with the "NASCAR saved ARCA" claim is that it indicates there is evidence no one else would have bought ARCA's assets. I am not nearly as certain about that as some folks here are. It's also a bit amusing to me to see ARCA in the state it is as "saved". It is a Frankenstein's Monster series built from parts of the corpses of Winston West, Busch North, and ARCA.

There is a long write up about when Jim France and his friend who owned the series sold it to Jim France somewhere. I don't know what the hell you are trying to get at. What it was before is irrelevant to the sale. It's akin to when Tony Stewart bought Eldora. The owners sold it to Stewart because they knew he wouldn't turn it into a mall, or some B.S. Same here with the sale of ARCA.

 

[KTMLew01]

Rick Hendrick spoke about being "tired" after these talks.

MJ and Bob Jenkins think the organizations have been unfairly treated in terms of revenue split. Honestly, I need to read the document in its entirety as well, so I won't say much until I read all 40+ pages of it.

This could have been avoided, but this goes deeper than just charters.

Some keep caterwauling about MJ building a new shop knowing it was a bad investment. He didn't know how the "negotiation" with NASCAR would end but assumed they had enough sense to not just decide the teams have no value. NASCAR's take sure seems to be, we'll just replace them. I put quotes in because there was minimal good-faith negotiation by NASCAR. Hence the "I'm tired" from HMS.

NASCAR quit communicating with the RTA. Met with teams individually so could more easily divide & conquer. Sad part? I nearly worked.

Jordan said NOPE! I'm on his side. Burn it all down. It's CART all over again. That all worked out eventually. Mostly.