23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

wi_racefan said:
I think engines wouldn't be any issue at all. These engine shops are just like any other business. If you need money at the end of the day a paying customer is a paying customer. You think HMS wants to be selling engines the way it is? Nope...but someone has to pay the bill

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Hendrick Engines is not diversified like ECR and Roush Yates. They basically exist to supply HMS and JRM. Any other engines they lease is just a little extra pocket change. My guess is if HMS stopped being a Cup team, the engine department would probably shut down and the machinery and some of the people transferred to their outside ventures. Regardless, I don't see Jack, Richard or Rick leasing engines to scabs who took their place in the Cup Series. I have no idea what TRD's position would be.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR owns some of the tracks.

And none of the cars.
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They can only be raced at nascar events, so they might not physically own the cars but they own the rights to them.

They also prohibit anyone besides certain manufacturers from making them.

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Charlie Spencer said:
Sez who? If Gibbs, Penske, and Hendrick want to rent a track and put their cars and drivers on it, what's stopping them legally? It takes less than 30 seconds to cover up that 'NASCAR Race Car' sticker on the front fenders.
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This was already brought up when the owners threatened to start their own series. Legally they're not allowed to race that car outside of nascar.

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wi_racefan said:
They can only be raced at nascar events, so they might not physically own the cars but they own the rights to them.

They also prohibit anyone besides certain manufacturers from making them.

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Yes, I know.
 
wi_racefan said:
This was already brought up when the owners threatened to start their own series. Legally they're not allowed to race that car outside of nascar.

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Okay, but it wouldn't take long to come up with a car that's different enough legally. NASCAR may own the intellectual property of the cars but it doesn't own the cars themselves. The smaller teams probably wouldn't be able to afford it but I expect the manufacturers would help out.

EDIT - Nothing above is to say I expect or want the teams to pull out. I'm discussing possibilities, not probabilities.
 
wi_racefan said:
They can only be raced at nascar events, so they might not physically own the cars but they own the rights to them.

They also prohibit anyone besides certain manufacturers from making them.

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I'm a little fuzzy on some of the car rules. The way I understand it, if a team wants a new car, they have to retire one of their current cars, but does NASCAR hold any rights to the retired car? I understand it can never be raced again, but can it become a museum car or a track day car? I also understand NASCAR holds the rights to many of the parts, but would anything stop Hendrick from reverse engineering spare parts and doing a track day car? I guess what I'm really wondering is if NASCAR canceled all the current charters, would the current teams be obligated to turn their cars back into NASCAR, or would they have to build a whole new fleet of cars for the replacement teams?
 
Formerjackman said:
I'm a little fuzzy on some of the car rules. The way I understand it, if a team wants a new car, they have to retire one of their current cars, but does NASCAR hold any rights to the retired car? I understand it can never be raced again, but can it become a museum car or a track day car? I also understand NASCAR holds the rights to many of the parts, but would anything stop Hendrick from reverse engineering spare parts and doing a track day car? I guess what I'm really wondering is if NASCAR canceled all the current charters, would the current teams be obligated to turn their cars back into NASCAR, or would they have to build a whole new fleet of cars for the replacement teams?
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I pondered this too few pages back.
 
Formerjackman said:
I'm a little fuzzy on some of the car rules. The way I understand it, if a team wants a new car, they have to retire one of their current cars, but does NASCAR hold any rights to the retired car? I understand it can never be raced again, but can it become a museum car or a track day car? I also understand NASCAR holds the rights to many of the parts, but would anything stop Hendrick from reverse engineering spare parts and doing a track day car? I guess what I'm really wondering is if NASCAR canceled all the current charters, would the current teams be obligated to turn their cars back into NASCAR, or would they have to build a whole new fleet of cars for the replacement teams?
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From what I understand is they physically own the cars but the car itself can't be used in competition outside of nascar. Generally if a car is retired it's because it's been serviced out and from a safety standpoint they don't want to run it anymore. If that's the case I don't think you'd want to retire it and then go compete with it elsewhere.

It would be interesting to see how many center sections are actually being taken out of service.

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Was this rule new with the Next Gen car? I remember it used to be common practice for previous generation cars to be sold to, and raced by, Busch and ARCA teams.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Was this rule new with the Next Gen car? I remember it used to be common practice for previous generation cars to be sold to, and raced by, Busch and ARCA teams.
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These cars are too different to be used in any other stock car series, and despite the similarities, they can't really be modified for any GT sports car racing class either. Their ONLY possible use would be as a track day or vintage meet car, where depending on what caused the car to be retired, might not matter. A few years ago, I went to a SVRA vintage race at IMS, and two guys were "racing" an old AJ Foyt, then Dave Marcis circa 1981 Olds Cutlass that had been disemboweled and cut apart and made into a restaurant salad bar, they welded back together to be used for vintage racing. Extra credit if you remember Dave's Throttles Food and Fuel sponsorship from the early-mid 80's.
 
Formerjackman said:
These cars are too different to be used in any other stock car series, and despite the similarities, they can't really be modified for any GT sports car racing class either. Their ONLY possible use would be as a track day or vintage meet car, where depending on what caused the car to be retired, might not matter.
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I was not asking whether the current cars could be used by series other than Cup.

I'm looking for confirmation that previous generation cars were allowed to be run in other series, and asking when the rules were changed so the cars aren't allowed to be run outside Cup races (say, in a stand alone event put together by renegade owners).
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I was not asking whether the current cars could be used by series other than Cup.

I'm looking for confirmation that previous generation cars were allowed to be run in other series, and asking when the rules were changed so the cars aren't allowed to be run outside Cup races (say, in a stand alone event put together by renegade owners).
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In the past, it was common practice for ARCA teams to purchase / race used Cup cars.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I was not asking whether the current cars could be used by series other than Cup.

I'm looking for confirmation that previous generation cars were allowed to be run in other series, and asking when the rules were changed so the cars aren't allowed to be run outside Cup races (say, in a stand alone event put together by renegade owners).
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Yes, ARCA cars definitely were former Cup cars in almost all circumstances except for a select few that could afford to have new cars built. In my era (2000-2003) the ONLY team I know of that had some new cars built was the Larry Clement team for driver Frank Kimmel. I don't even think the actual Cup teams participating in ARCA used brand new cars for that. Most of the cars I worked on were mostly Petty/PE2, Bud Moore and Hendrick chassis. One of the cars was allegedly an old Kulwicki car, but I was never able to confirm that. It was one of the last if not the last car to run in ARCA with a Thunderbird body. The Busch/Xfinity Series was always a little different because traditionally they used a shorter wheelbase. Some cars have been cut up and the wheelbase changed, but that is seldom the preferred way to go, just as it really wasn't in 1981 when Cup went from 155" to 110" wheelbase cars. The top teams built brand new cars, while the back markers often bought unwanted 115" cars and cut them down. With the changes in the Cup cars, I, think stretching Xfinity cars became more common for ARCA, but I really haven't kept up on all of that.
 
wi_racefan said:
Either way it's the conditions you agree to prior to making a purchase

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Is there an exclusion in the current charter that prohibits the teams from trying to negotiate the new charter? If there is not, the existing charter has nothing to do with what the teams are trying to have included or changed in the new charter they currently refuse to sign.
 
Whizzer said:
Is there an exclusion in the current charter that prohibits the teams from trying to negotiate the new charter? If there is not, the existing charter has nothing to do with what the teams are trying to have included or changed in the new charter they currently refuse to sign.
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Team spent 2 years "negotiating" and NASCAR finally said, we done. Sign here or go to the house.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Team spent 2 years "negotiating" and NASCAR finally said, we done. Sign here or go to the house.
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That's where they are at. If they make any special exceptions for the 2 teams that aren't signing, they have to start all over. It looks like it is too late to do that, the new deal starts next year.
 
Because Nascar went around and talked to each team individually, how do we know that each team got the same deal. Could there be different agreements for certain teams?
 
rd45usa said:
Because Nascar went around and talked to each team individually, how do we know that each team got the same deal. Could there be different agreements for certain teams?
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How do you know they talked to each team individually?
 
I doubt there’s any negotiating going on.

Jenkins, Jordan, Polk, Kessler et al will either take their boxes of documents to a judge or slink away with their tails between their legs.

These guys know what they’re doing. The second choice is not a good bet.
 
aunty dive said:
I doubt there’s any negotiating going on.

Jenkins, Jordan, Polk, Kessler et al will either take their boxes of documents to a judge or slink away with their tails between their legs.

These guys know what they’re doing. The second choice is not a good bet.
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What boxes of documents lol.
 
KTMLew01 said:
I'd assume been negotiating all year? Just drew line in the sand. I'll be shocked if the outstanding charters DON"T get pulled. NASCAR is done with whole deal.
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Right now there appears to be 2 charters that are loose. It could get interesting if somebody else is interested in one or two of them. I believe they are SHR's to sell.
 
StandOnIt said:
Right now there appears to be 2 charters that are loose. It could get interesting if somebody else is interested in one or two of them. I believe they are SHR's to sell.
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I'm suggesting 23XI will NOT have charters come Jan 1st. We don't know what will happen with SHR's either.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Not what he meant. He's saying, as I read it, NOBODY should have signed. Held NASCAR's feet to the fire. Make them find 36-40 new teams to buy all new equipment in 3-4 months.
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I know what he was implying. It didn't happen.
 
This isn't going to be any Indycar split. It ain't happening. The unity is there and appears to be strong. The legacy owners who built the series have moved on and are planning for next year, who knows what is going to happen to the outliers. They had better hurry up and file if they think they have a case, times are a wasting
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I was not asking whether the current cars could be used by series other than Cup.

I'm looking for confirmation that previous generation cars were allowed to be run in other series, and asking when the rules were changed so the cars aren't allowed to be run outside Cup races (say, in a stand alone event put together by renegade owners).
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Old Cup cars have been used in all sorts of series, most notable of course is ARCA.
 
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