Adjustable splitters/spoilers....Why not?

Revman

Revman

Toyota Gazoo Racing North America
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Alright, I have never heard a serious explanation for why NASCAR doesn't allow adjustable splitters and spoilers. Would seem to be that this might increase some aero differences in the cars, and increase passing. What am I missing?
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Because NASCAR.
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Yeah, I get that, but what are they afraid of? Somebody getting it right? Already happened without adjustability....See the 78 in 600 and the 18 at Indy. Could fix a car mid race and keep things exciting....or make it worse. I do not get it....even in NASCAR's misguided thinking at times.
 
They used to. The CoT cars (gen 5) had adjustable splitters which replaced the need for fender flare. And spoilers were always adjustable before that, I mean way back in the 80s they'd have huge spoilers laid back to 40 degrees if not less. Not we have short but more upright spoilers.

Why no adjustability? Probably a mindset of keeping the competition closer with more of a spec aero package.

They never adjusted the splitter or spoiler mid-race though. Takes way too long. You have a series of adjustment bars to fine tune according to the measurements allowed in the rules to make sure you aren't in violation of too much or too little angle. That's something that's figured out in testing and practice, but with little testing and less practice time now I'd say the non-adjustable aero is here to stay.
 
cheesepuffs said:
They used to. The CoT cars (gen 5) had adjustable splitters which replaced the need for fender flare. And spoilers were always adjustable before that, I mean way back in the 80s they'd have huge spoilers laid back to 40 degrees if not less. Not we have short but more upright spoilers.

Why no adjustability? Probably a mindset of keeping the competition closer with more of a spec aero package.

They never adjusted the splitter or spoiler mid-race though. Takes way too long. You have a series of adjustment bars to fine tune according to the measurements allowed in the rules to make sure you aren't in violation of too much or too little angle. That's something that's figured out in testing and practice, but with little testing and less practice time now I'd say the non-adjustable aero is here to stay.
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Au contraire mon frere.
Spoilers were adjusted mid-race and could be again. The bars that are on them now did not always exist and crew members could beat/bend the spoiler as desired during a stop.

To the original post:
NASCAR has held the belief for quite some time now that the machines should be as close to identical as possible.
This would leave the "show" in the hands of the drivers. It hasn't worked yet and it's time for the experiment to end.
Adjustability needs to return. Spoilers, shocks, springs, gears and motor.(get rid of the splitter)
The Monster Energy CRATE Cup Series needs some room for the crew chiefs to work some of their magic!
Hopefully Monster insists on it.
 
Old 97 said:
Au contraire mon frere.
Spoilers were adjusted mid-race and could be again. The bars that are on them now did not always exist and crew members could beat/bend the spoiler as desired during a stop.

To the original post:
NASCAR has held the belief for quite some time now that the machines should be as close to identical as possible.
This would leave the "show" in the hands of the drivers. It hasn't worked yet and it's time for the experiment to end.
Adjustability needs to return. Spoilers, shocks, springs, gears and motor.(get rid of the splitter)
The Monster Energy CRATE Cup Series needs some room for the crew chiefs to work some of their magic!
Hopefully Monster insists on it.
Click to expand...

There are no adjustable bars on the spoilers anymore, just solid, welded brackets. I think its cool that before they had the adjustment bars, when it was just a bend piece of sheet metal basically, that NASCAR was cool with modifying it in the race. But that was WAY long ago.

Also if you get rid of the splitter then you need to bring fender flare back, which defeats the purpose of the gen 6 looking more like the road cars.
 
Old 97 said:
Au contraire mon frere.
Spoilers were adjusted mid-race and could be again. The bars that are on them now did not always exist and crew members could beat/bend the spoiler as desired during a stop.

To the original post:
NASCAR has held the belief for quite some time now that the machines should be as close to identical as possible.
This would leave the "show" in the hands of the drivers. It hasn't worked yet and it's time for the experiment to end.
Adjustability needs to return. Spoilers, shocks, springs, gears and motor.(get rid of the splitter)
The Monster Energy CRATE Cup Series needs some room for the crew chiefs to work some of their magic!
Hopefully Monster insists on it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get that they want them close. They are. Put the thing in the hands of the driver, and the driver's ability to communicate to the team the way he wants it trimmed out. The only way you get passing is when one car is faster than another. Duh! As it is now, the cars are close, the drivers are close, the teams are close, and well without a discrepancy in speed, you won't have passing. Ever.

It may not matter to you, but I can promise you that if NASCAR went crate motors in any of its national series, Toyota would be gone from the series instantaneously. Toyota was very upset when noise was made in the Trucks about such an idea. I think a crate motor was ready, but I don't think it was raced. Any idea on that?
 
cheesepuffs said:
Also if you get rid of the splitter then you need to bring fender flare back, which defeats the purpose of the gen 6 looking more like the road cars.
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This is a really damn good point....one I have not hear in relation to the elimination of the splitter.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, I get that they want them close. They are. Put the thing in the hands of the driver, and the driver's ability to communicate to the team the way he wants it trimmed out. The only way you get passing is when one car is faster than another. Duh! As it is now, the cars are close, the drivers are close, the teams are close, and well without a discrepancy in speed, you won't have passing. Ever.

It may not matter to you, but I can promise you that if NASCAR went crate motors in any of its national series, Toyota would be gone from the series instantaneously. Toyota was very upset when noise was made in the Trucks about such an idea. I think a crate motor was ready, but I don't think it was raced. Any idea on that?
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NASCAR offers spec engines built by Yates in the lower divisions, late models and modifieds. It wouldn't bother me to see costs lowered further in the truck series (which is already pretty cheap as far as motorsports go) but if anything it would probably be an option, not a mandate. Something affordable but competitive that'sbasically plug and play.

But that will never happen in Cup so don't worry about it.
 
Revman said:
This is a really damn good point....one I have not hear in relation to the elimination of the splitter.
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I find a lot of fans of this sport lack the foresight to even look one step ahead of themselves. They cry things like, "just make the cars stock again". It's nowhere near so simple, as we've discussed here recently before. Or, "just get rid of the damn splitter". Well you need to make frontal downforce one way or another. The splitter, with how small it is now, is basically completely out of view so it's not aesthetically displeasing. Fender flare used to look so ridiculous before the CoT era. I don't want the splitter taken away and to go backwards.

We've gotten so comfortable with the gen 6 bodies that we take for granted how good they look over the previous generations.
 
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cheesepuffs said:
NASCAR offers spec engines built by Yates in the lower divisions, late models and modifieds. It wouldn't bother me to see costs lowered further in the truck series (which is already pretty cheap as far as motorsports go) but if anything it would probably be an option, not a mandate. Something affordable but competitive that'sbasically plug and play.

But that will never happen in Cup so don't worry about it.
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Yup, I agree. David Wilson made it pretty clear that if the crate motor was introduced as an option, Toyota would have to "reconsider its participation." NASCAR would make the crate motor appealing, or why bother? Toyota is very supportive and accommodating to NASCAR, but on this issue...not so much.
 
I agree with you Old 97...... way too much has been taken out of the hands of the crew chiefs.... the rules are way too stringent ...... any hope of ingenuity has been squashed..... I think that is one contributing factor to the decline in viewership and attendance....
 
For all the effort NASCAR has gone through recently to develop new aero packages that are balanced, less sensitive, and more competitive, there is probably no way that they would just let the teams throw that out the window by allowing adjustable spoilers. NASCAR's view is that if they set everyone up equally and then lock it in place they will be more equal on Sunday. Well as @Revman points out, that's hardly ever the case. Manufacturers want brand identity and that means ever since gen 6 differences in the car's aero. Building Speed has a good article about how NASCAR has handled it recently, equivalence not equality.

In light of this, I agree with others here that a different approach is needed. Allowing spoiler angle to be adjusted within a certain range would allow teams with less-effective aero to catch up on downforce at the cost of straight-line speed. There still wouldn't be a free lunch. However I do think it would need to be something that's adjustable during a pit stop. Maybe a new use for the wedge wrench? Indycar has "wing" adjustments during their pitstops but we'd have to call it something different. If you can't adjust it during the course of a race you still have the same old problem of certain teams running away with things because their engineers optimized things a certain way. The Xfinity cars have (had? they might be going away) those "dog ear" flaps teams could add on but again those weren't adjustable during the race, so same issue. Those could be another option in addition to or instead of spoiler angle changes for the cup cars, again only if they are changeable during a stop.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, I get that they want them close. They are. Put the thing in the hands of the driver, and the driver's ability to communicate to the team the way he wants it trimmed out. The only way you get passing is when one car is faster than another. Duh! As it is now, the cars are close, the drivers are close, the teams are close, and well without a discrepancy in speed, you won't have passing. Ever.

It may not matter to you, but I can promise you that if NASCAR went crate motors in any of its national series, Toyota would be gone from the series instantaneously. Toyota was very upset when noise was made in the Trucks about such an idea. I think a crate motor was ready, but I don't think it was raced. Any idea on that?[/QUOTE
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cheesepuffs said:
NASCAR offers spec engines built by Yates in the lower divisions, late models and modifieds. It wouldn't bother me to see costs lowered further in the truck series (which is already pretty cheap as far as motorsports go) but if anything it would probably be an option, not a mandate. Something affordable but competitive that'sbasically plug and play.

But that will never happen in Cup so don't worry about it.
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My point to the CRATE comment was simply the fact the the engines in use today are provided by very few suppliers.
If you look at the Toyota teams alone you could say that they are nothing more than a micro CRATE series in and of themselves. All brands have been over engineered and de-tuned to produce an engine that very seldom blows and is within single digits in horsepower to the other brands. NASCAR has made sure of it. Just another swipe at any attempt at inginuity.

To cheezepuffs comment about foresight and downforce I must respectfully disagree. A more stock appearing product raced for years in front of full stands. We have spent enough time listening to drivers complain about aero push. If it is happening still after a decade wouldn't someone think that it may continue? Splitter be damned!!! LOL
Also......as to the spoilers, I don't remember a crew ever taking the time to adjust the stiffening supports during a race. When they adjusted spoilers on the fly they were simply welded metal spoilers.
 
Old 97 said:
My point to the CRATE comment was simply the fact the the engines in use today are provided by very few suppliers.
If you look at the Toyota teams alone you could say that they are nothing more than a micro CRATE series in and of themselves. All brands have been over engineered and de-tuned to produce an engine that very seldom blows and is within single digits in horsepower to the other brands. NASCAR has made sure of it. Just another swipe at any attempt at inginuity.
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I get your point, but there is some intrigue manufacturer to manufacturer when it comes to performance. How much of that is motor? Eh, probably more corner off handling than motor, but It was only 4 years ago when my TRD Toyotas were popping engines, and then had to detune everything--it was a brutal road back. A couple of horsepower here and there is a big deal when the motors are so close--but I get your point, motor cannot compensate for an ill handling car anymore. I think that Doug Yates said it cost $100,000 per 1 horsepower these days with these engines. Would be great to see NASCAR introduce new engine rules inclusive of overhead cams, etc. New engine design would encourage aggression in design, and vulnerability IMO. However, Rob Kauffman and the RTA would squash that in an instant on cost grounds.
 
The spoilers should be adjustable from the drivers seat but make it a slow process. It would be great to watch drivers adjusting spoiler and tork bar so as to set up a pass.
 
cheesepuffs said:
They used to. The CoT cars (gen 5) had adjustable splitters which replaced the need for fender flare. And spoilers were always adjustable before that, I mean way back in the 80s they'd have huge spoilers laid back to 40 degrees if not less. Not we have short but more upright spoilers.

Why no adjustability? Probably a mindset of keeping the competition closer with more of a spec aero package.

They never adjusted the splitter or spoiler mid-race though. Takes way too long. You have a series of adjustment bars to fine tune according to the measurements allowed in the rules to make sure you aren't in violation of too much or too little angle. That's something that's figured out in testing and practice, but with little testing and less practice time now I'd say the non-adjustable aero is here to stay.
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I wouldn't like to see the adjustments on the fly, but why not make is conceivable on pit road? Hell, they can adjust the track bar now on the fly. What is necessary is to get some differences in these cars. It would be conceivable that somebody would go too far, and lose it--something we don't see much of anymore. Some guys can handle loose, others need it tight. Give them what they want, and make it the crew chief's job to get it right...
 
Team Penske said:
The spoilers should be adjustable from the drivers seat but make it a slow process. It would be great to watch drivers adjusting spoiler and tork bar so as to set up a pass.
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Maybe, but I wouldn't want them tuning the things corner to corner. I would like to see that kind of thing happen on pit road during a stop. Part of what keeps the driver in the equation IMO is to take a car that is a compromise to begin with, and drive the **** out of it. What I don't like is when a driver is stuck at the first stop with a car that cannot get to the front no matter how hard he tries.
 
Team Penske said:
The spoilers should be adjustable from the drivers seat but make it a slow process. It would be great to watch drivers adjusting spoiler and tork bar so as to set up a pass.
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This sounds good maybe in theory but is awful and a band-aid in real practice. Formula 1 does this, they call it the Drag Reduction System or "DRS". Some new, smart people have come into power in F1 and are trying to get rid of it because it means literally zero creativity in passing. Get close enough to the lead car, press the button, the wing lays back, and you speed past the leader. You don't want that. You want passing on the outside, crossover moves, side-drafting, door to door action. Not DRS which is like a video game boost button. Might as well just put a nitrous bottle in each car at that point.
 
Keep in mind also guys, that NASCAR already changes rules across all three series' year to year, and with every rule change comes increased cost to change over the parts to new specs, and to develop it and do R&D pending on what it is. If you guys want old school NASCAR back, well part of what made things great back in the day is that basically anybody who wanted to enter a Cup race could do it. Way less regulation and less cost. Cars were simpler with simpler materials. A lot of it (like carbon seats) is obviously great for safety, but if you want to start talking active aero then that's just dollar signs to a car owner. Hendrick, Penske, Gibbs, those guys can absorb that cost. But if you ever want to see the little guy make any kind of a dent in the sport again then do not push NASCAR to keep changing the regulations to field more complex and expensive parts. It's why we don't have an Alan Kulwicki type anymore.
 
Revman said:
Alright, I have never heard a serious explanation for why NASCAR doesn't allow adjustable splitters and spoilers. Would seem to be that this might increase some aero differences in the cars, and increase passing. What am I missing?
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I've always thought the teams should be able to set spoilers at any angle they want and change them during the race if they like.
 
If you use the air to increase downforce, the more aero push the car behind you has. That wouldn't be fair in a spec car series. The less downforce there is, the more it puts the race in the drivers hands. If you want close racing, then you need spec cars. Close racing does not always mean good racing. Daytona and Talladega are perfect examples of this. Sure they have lots of speed, and lead changes, but the races are boring.
 
LARRY said:
I've always thought the teams should be able to set spoilers at any angle they want and change them during the race if they like.
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YES!!!!!
 
a.jpg



proposed Daytona package (driver adjustable)
 
I liked the wing they used for a year or two not long ago. I thought it worked better than a spoiler. But there was a lot of flack about the wing and I don't remember why.
 
cheesepuffs said:
This sounds good maybe in theory but is awful and a band-aid in real practice. Formula 1 does this, they call it the Drag Reduction System or "DRS". Some new, smart people have come into power in F1 and are trying to get rid of it because it means literally zero creativity in passing. Get close enough to the lead car, press the button, the wing lays back, and you speed past the leader. You don't want that. You want passing on the outside, crossover moves, side-drafting, door to door action. Not DRS which is like a video game boost button. Might as well just put a nitrous bottle in each car at that point.
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I think it would be much different and more tolerable if you could adjust it at your own discretion. I agree that DRS sucks in a lot of ways and being handicapped by the interval restriction (have to be <1 second behind leading car) and only having a zone or two where you can use it are parts of that.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I think it would be much different and more tolerable if you could adjust it at your own discretion. I agree that DRS sucks in a lot of ways and being handicapped by the interval restriction (have to be <1 second behind leading car) and only having a zone or two where you can use it are parts of that.
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Ok so if there's no restriction then guess what, every single driver uses it on the straights and then the net gain of using it is zero because the guys in front of you are doing the same thing.
 
Yogisd1 said:
If you use the air to increase downforce, the more aero push the car behind you has. That wouldn't be fair in a spec car series. The less downforce there is, the more it puts the race in the drivers hands. If you want close racing, then you need spec cars. Close racing does not always mean good racing. Daytona and Talladega are perfect examples of this. Sure they have lots of speed, and lead changes, but the races are boring.
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I must be the only person that still looks forward to the plate races.
 
There's doesn't seem to be much "grey" area where teams can make gains to get ahead of other teams. Nascar wants an even playing field but it's at the expense of someone finding something and having an extended streak of success until the rest of the field catches up.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Ok so if there's no restriction then guess what, every single driver uses it on the straights and then the net gain of using it is zero because the guys in front of you are doing the same thing.
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That's why the adjustments need to be on pit road.
 
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