All-Star Race package for the Brickyard

ChexOrWrex said:
What does this even mean? The track isn’t even infamous for stock car racing. The Indy 500 & Brickyard 400 are not in the same zipcode when it comes to prestige. NASCAR sitting on IndyCar’s coattails is all to see here.
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I don't see why that is the relevant context. Never do I watch an IndyCar race at Phoenix or Texas or Pocono and marvel at how many more people watched the NASCAR race there. The two series are in different zip codes period and have nearly no relation to each other. If it is racing I appreciate, I watch it. If it's not, I don't.

No, nothing else ever conducted at IMS will be close to as important as the 500. I can appreciate the Brickyard for what it is, which is still one of NASCAR's most significant races.
 
gnomesayin said:
still one of NASCAR's most significant races.
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How though? Simply based on prestige?

The race doesnt pay any more points than usual, isnt placed in a critical point in the season, or IIRC doesnt pay out the big bucks like an all star event or isnt even technically a crown jewel since the No Bull 5 got Thanos’d. What is more significant about it other than the reputation from IndyCar?

It’s just historical significance pouring over from another racing series that lifts this race up for NASCAR.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
How though? Simply based on prestige?
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I don't really want to repeat myself, but more people watch it than any other second half of the season race. To reframe this, more people care about a supposedly poor quality race at Indy than the entirety of the playoffs stupidity.

I'm not using that popularity to justify its merit as a sporting contest. I've done that separately. The plate races are popular and are junk food as far as I'm concerned. However, this is an important real world factor that is not esoteric.
 
but the same people who have a phobia about plates will watch Indycars flat foot around the track and call that awesome racing. I don't get it myself. Doesn't make a dam difference to me
 
StandOnIt said:
but the same people who have a phobia about plates will watch Indycars flat foot around the track and call that awesome racing. I don't get it myself. Doesn't make a dam difference to me
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Who the hell here actually watches IndyCar?
 
StandOnIt said:
but the same people who have a phobia about plates will watch Indycars flat foot around the track and call that awesome racing. I don't get it myself. Doesn't make a dam difference to me
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A couple of us addressed this a page back. While NASCAR plate racing and IndyCar on ovals aren't the same, we don't want IndyCar flat footing it either. It makes a huge difference to me. Braking and throttle control are crucial elements to racing.

I'm all about defending the racing merit of the Brickyard as it has been. It will never be as important as the 500, but in this millennium it probably requires more innate driving skill to win.
 
gnomesayin said:
The reason to respect the race is because it is a challenging track both to drive and to prepare cars for, and demands top performance. There is a reason that in 24 editions of the race, there have been only three winners who aren't champions or legends of the sport. Instead the list of winners is littered with Earnhardts, Gordons, Johnsons, Stewarts, etc. Generally, winning there ain't no fluke, and it is a genuine test of skill. I don't find that boring at all. Move to the dumbed down ASR package, and much of this is removed from the equation. Taking a race like that and turning it into a free-for-all not only isn't entertaining to me, it's a disgrace.
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Andrew Maness did some research into this a few years back - IMS had one of the five lowest average differences between a driver's results there and at all other tracks. Kansas, Chicagoland, Kentucky, and Dover were the rest of the Top 5. Stereotypical "boring" tracks (bar Dover) but ones that I don't believe many people would argue don't require a good deal of skill.

Daytona and Talladega had far and away the largest differences. Interesting how that works.
 
People will watch the 500 because it's the 500. If it were really flat-out, wide-open driving that appealed to people then the IRL would've helped grow, not drown, American open wheel racing. The IRL was set up to be a NASCAR plate racing enthusiast's wet dream, and it failed. IROC - four races a year, and it still was forced to fold.

It sounds like the days of IndyCar slingshotting around IMS all day might be over anyways with the new aero. Even F1 has seemingly admitted super-high downforce has been a mistake, and aim to begin shedding downforce next year ahead of an all-new formula with substantially less grip in 2021. At a time when several other major series are adding HP and reducing downforce, it is curious that NASCAR seems intent on doing the polar opposite.
 
Yeah, they were actually a trailblazer on the low downforce path and could be credited with being ahead of the curve. Now they have themselves convinced that is what has driven down interest, when there are much more plausible causes at work? Ridiculous and disappointing.
 
FLRacingFan said:
People will watch the 500 because it's the 500. If it were really flat-out, wide-open driving that appealed to people then the IRL would've helped grow, not drown, American open wheel racing. The IRL was set up to be a NASCAR plate racing enthusiast's wet dream, and it failed. IROC - four races a year, and it still was forced to fold.

It sounds like the days of IndyCar slingshotting around IMS all day might be over anyways with the new aero. Even F1 has seemingly admitted super-high downforce has been a mistake, and aim to begin shedding downforce next year ahead of an all-new formula with substantially less grip in 2021. At a time when several other major series are adding HP and reducing downforce, it is curious that NASCAR seems intent on doing the polar opposite.
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might be because they are at least twice as heavy rolling on a tire at least half as wide ya think? Not even in the universe roll center comparison. The open wheelers can run upside down with the downforce they produce so losing a little isn't going to be much of a difference.
really?
ferrari-sf70h-front-wings-bahrain-gp-f1-2017-foto-amus-850x491.jpg


organic :D

indycaraero.jpg
 
StandOnIt said:
might be because they are at least twice as heavy rolling on a tire at least half as wide ya think? Not even in the universe roll center comparison. The open wheelers can run upside down with the downforce they produce so losing a little isn't going to be much of a difference.
really?
ferrari-sf70h-front-wings-bahrain-gp-f1-2017-foto-amus-850x491.jpg


organic :D

indycaraero.jpg
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The Chevy IndyCar front wing is obviously no longer in use, and the goofy hundred-element Ferrari front wing won't be around next year either.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...closer-racing-and-overtaking-approved-f1.html

I don't know what your definition of difference is, but IndyCar passing has actually roughly doubled from last year, and that seems like quite a difference to me. And that is simply through aero, with 100+ HP not being added until 2021.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
What does this even mean? The track isn’t even infamous for stock car racing. The Indy 500 & Brickyard 400 are not in the same zipcode when it comes to prestige. NASCAR sitting on IndyCar’s coattails is all to see here.
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I STILL find it pretty awesome stock cars race at Indy, go ahead say I’m Stuck in 1994. To see NASCAR race at a place where the Indy 500 is run is pretty damn cool to me, that’s the whole point of why I like the Brickyard 400. I also will say I’m a sucker for prestigious venues in all forms of sports Daytona International Speedway, Fenway Park, Yankee Stadium, Wrigley Field, Lambeau Field, Maple Leaf Gardens...when I saw or seen those places I knew the highest form of competition was taking place. I feel the same about Indy, still gives me goosebumps when I see a green flag there.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Who the hell here actually watches IndyCar?
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:waver: I do. Used to be more of a USAC fan than Nascar. It has been a long steep decline to a low place. The Indy 500 is a benchmark event and there are several other good venues... Pocono, Elkhart Lake... but most races suck pretty bad. JMO.

But I am excited about today's races. F1 at Monaco. Indy 500 with less gratuitous passing I hope. World 600 with two or three viable grooves. Bring it on!
 
FLRacingFan said:
Who the hell here actually watches IndyCar?
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I do!! Grew up a few miles from Nazareth, PA (home of the Andretti's and the former Nazareth Speedway) so i've always been drawn to IndyCar racing. I've attended the IRL race at Pocono 2 out of the last 3 seasons and play and going again this year.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Who the hell here actually watches IndyCar?
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I did today. I heard "fuel saving" from lap 5. I heard "clean air." I heard, "Can't pass." I saw a bunch of people in the grandstands, and radio announcers talking about a great race. I am ****** dumbfounded. Guess we have bigger expectations, or do NASCAR fans just bitch? Latter. Thank you.
 
NASCAR has a legit shot to be the best race of the day.
 
gnomesayin said:
To reframe this, more people care about a supposedly poor quality race at Indy than the entirety of the playoffs stupidity.
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More people care about watching networked-hyped spectacle at IMS than what's actually happening on the track, regardless of the series or the quality of the racing. The track is prestigious; the B400 is popular.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
More people care about watching networked-hyped spectacle at IMS than what's actually happening on the track, regardless of the series or the quality of the racing. The track is prestigious; the B400 is popular.
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This.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Who the hell here actually watches IndyCar?
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Me.
StandOnIt said:
but the same people who have a phobia about plates will watch Indycars flat foot around the track and call that awesome racing. I don't get it myself. Doesn't make a dam difference to me
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They were lifting in every corner today. They got out of the gas more in 1 and 3 than in 2 and 4, but that's probably because they weren't accelerating to full throttle knowing they'd have to lift again.
 
Revman said:
I did today. I heard "fuel saving" from lap 5. I heard "clean air." I heard, "Can't pass." I saw a bunch of people in the grandstands, and radio announcers talking about a great race. I am ******* dumbfounded. Guess we have bigger expectations, or do NASCAR fans just bitch? Latter. Thank you.
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what is funny is listening to the ones who are drooling about the Indy race where you can't pass the leader and he wins by 5 seconds and they are over here saying boring, yawn during the race thread and they live in the deathbed thread saying no wonder Nascar is losing fans. :D:p
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Me.

They were lifting in every corner today. They got out of the gas more in 1 and 3 than in 2 and 4, but that's probably because they weren't accelerating to full throttle knowing they'd have to lift again.
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yeah they were with their new package and they couldn't pass..kinda reminds ya of a Nascar race.
 
StandOnIt said:
what is funny is listening to the ones who are drooling about the Indy race where you can't pass the leader and he wins by 5 seconds and they are over here saying boring, yawn during the race thread and they live in the deathbed thread saying no wonder Nascar is losing fans. :D:p
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No joke man. I actually listen to the 500--takes me back to my days when I was a kid and that's all we had until the replay Monday night. Kind of my own personal tradition. What that does is takes the optics out of it, and you just listen to what is being said. It knocked me on my ass that people would be screaming over here based on what I heard. Fascinating ****. A study in psychology, sociology, and the expression of all of that in social media. You know that I am not necessarily a "racing" fan, but a fan of racing--if that makes any sense. I have been critical of those who simply want to see good "racing." I can honestly tell you that tonight I am a huge racing fan in addition to being a fan of racing. I want NASCAR to knock it out of the park. The world (kind of getting carried away here) is watching.
 
I guess I can't tell what exactly is the preferred method of racing from @StandOnIt. Largely flat-out open wheel racing wasn't good, but NASCAR largely flat-out racing will be good, and today's 500 with more lifting, drivers spinning on their own, much less slingshot overtaking, wasn't good? I'm confused.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I guess I can't tell what exactly is the preferred method of racing from @StandOnIt. Flat-out open wheel racing wasn't good, but NASCAR flat-out racing will be good, and today's 500 with more lifting, drivers spinning on their own, much less slingshot overtaking, wasn't good? I'm confused.
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Bud don't be misquoting me out of context. Flatfooting it around the corner and being able to draft up and pass was a comparison to the Nascar aero package and Indycar's last year downforce package as to using a plate and being wide open in an Indycar. Really close to the same thing and it works. Of course your bias got into the way because you don't agree it makes for good racing.
 
StandOnIt said:
Of course your bias got into the way because you don't agree it makes for good racing.
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Everyone has a bias and opinion about this, it is a subjective matter of preference. I too was confused about what you actually support, but I don't want to mischaracterize anything. Do you generally want to see higher downforce racing everywhere in NASCAR, or only at the flatter tracks where you don't like the current racing? The only thing I remain confused about is why you weren't more vocal in criticizing the lower downforce initiatives until this new package was announced. I may have missed that.
 
gnomesayin said:
Everyone has a bias and opinion about this, it is a subjective matter of preference. I too was confused about what you actually support, but I don't want to mischaracterize anything. Do you generally want to see higher downforce racing everywhere in NASCAR, or only at the flatter tracks where you don't like the current racing? The only thing I remain confused about is why you weren't more vocal in criticizing the lower downforce initiatives until this new package was announced. I may have missed that.
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don't know why you are confused. as I have said all along to the hysterical, this was the first shot, it needs more refinement, it is being designed for Pocono, Michigan, and INDY. I and others have been posting opinions on this thread from drivers, owners, tracks, reporters, for and against page after page. It isn't time to play ring around the rosey
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah they were with their new package and they couldn't pass..kinda reminds ya of a Nascar race.
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There was plenty of passing. It’s more difficult because the indycar does not punish a car in clean air like last year. Im OK with that.

Comparing the aero in indycar and stock car races and trying to equate the two with a common problem is ludicrous.
 
StandOnIt said:
don't know why you are confused. as I have said all along to the hysterical, this was the first shot, it needs more refinement, it is being designed for Pocono, Michigan, and INDY. I and others have been posting opinions on this thread from drivers, owners, tracks, reporters, for and against page after page. It isn't time to play ring around the rosey
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I asked you a couple of direct questions, because you obviously have preferences like we all do, and there have been some contradictory remarks. I read the comments from public figures and assess them.

I'll ask one more and then disengage. If NASCAR announces that the ASR package or a refined version of it will be used at all 1.5 and 2 mile tracks in 2019, do you support that? Or is it more complicated and that might be an overreach? That's what I wanted to understand so I'm not mischaracterizing your view.
 
gnomesayin said:
I asked you a couple of direct questions, because you obviously have preferences like we all do, and there have been some contradictory remarks. I read the comments from public figures and assess them.

I'll ask one more and then disengage. If NASCAR announces that the ASR package or a refined version of it will be used at all 1.5 and 2 mile tracks in 2019, do you support that? Or is it more complicated and that might be an overreach? That's what I wanted to understand so I'm not mischaracterizing your view.
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that would be under the "it needs more refinement". Again they have only had one race and it wasn't on a track they are designing it for. It's all there in the preceding pages, but some are concerned with their "position" and it is such a complicated change to make it work with so many players involved, it isn't a snap your fingers click your heels together that some of the detractors use for an excuse to throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
At 225 mph the volume and ferocity of the turbulent air in the wake of an Indy car in any configuration is astounding.

It’s “dirty” and the downforce reductions implemented do little to change that. It’s about velocity, not downforce.
 
as far as the IndyCar package for the 500, I think they missed it a little the first shot, just like Nascar did. Besides the mistakes many drivers made who weren't familiar with the new package, seeing a car lose it on a straight wasn't a good sign for me. The drivers might learn a way around that happening, who knows. I guarantee much will be said about that race pro and con. IndyCars are way more sensitive to aero changes and it is a much harder window to hit because they are so light IMO.
 
aunty dive said:
At 225 mph the volume and ferocity of the turbulent air in the wake of an Indy car in any configuration is astounding.

It’s “dirty” and the downforce reductions implemented do little to change that. It’s about velocity, not downforce.
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not in the corners spinning all by yourself, the change in downforce was the main cause of that..
 
They are going to put a plate on the pace car to ensure that the race cars can keep up.
 
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