Caution clocks and timed races

Seeing I don't attend Nascar races I don't have any dog in the shorter races fight as I watch what I want and when I want from the comfort and convenience of home. Some of the newer Nascar fans may not realize this but there have been multiple races that have had about 20% of their distance shortened over the years as 500 laps or 500 miles was fairly standard in the good old days.

The real shame of things is that Nascar and its partners are not interested in figuring out a way to stage a 500 mile event that people find entertaining. Instead they are throwing in the towel and attempting to make their product more palatable by adding gimmicks and shortening the length of them. In a way it would be like Campbell's reducing the size of their soup cans and adding a coupon on the label to reduce the price of another item instead of trying to make soup people liked and wanted to consume.
 
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dpkimmel2001 said:
It's all perspective. I've got to travel a minimum of 9 hours to the closest of NASCAR races. Most that I attend are more than a 1000 miles round trip. For me and my family, I don't see a return on investment on shorter races. I've got think that a lot of those RVers that are traveling much further than I do would see it the same way.
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Interesting. I'm not able to fit traveling to NASCAR races in my schedule currently. When I did, I enjoyed it, but I would have had zero problem with it being a 2.5 hour race instead of 3.5 hours. I used to go to the Knoxville Nationals and Chili Bowl every year among others, and while they have days of preliminary races, the main event is over in less than half an hour, and those types of races are my favorite to attend. When I go to a Saturday short track, I'd rather see a tight 3-hour program than a sprawling 5-hour one with too many filler classes. So this is where I'm coming from.

dpkimmel2001 said:
I have a tough time understanding the mindset that believes that fans will be attracted to a shorter race.
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NASCAR runs on TV money at this point, and it's all about what works better for TV.
 
All that said, they better not mess with the Southern 500 again, and I don't think they would. Those longer traditional races will become more special and unique if the bulk of the schedule moves to a shorter format.
 
aunty dive said:
At this point, every professional sport and a bunch of "amateur" sports run on TV money ... across the globe.
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Basically true, yes. There are differences in how important local revenues are in other sports, but not enough to get in the weeds about. Some are focusing on how shorter races will impact live attendance, and the push for shorter or time-certain races has nothing to do with that.
 
I am in complete awe to read all these posts by folks that are sure a shortened race will save Nascar.... or at least bring more fans in..... What is this all about? Do the ''fans'' nowadays have such a short attention span that they can't watch a full race? Where did all this go awry? I was always hungry for more laps and hated when the race was over. I guess things are different now with the ''millenials'' ........ it seems they are are always in a hurry to everything.... even to shove all us ''old'' folks out of the way...(the ones that like the old point system and have no use for the ''chase'') because progression is always good..... let's just get it done in a few minutes so we can go onto something more important.......
 
College football is more popular than ever and those games average three and a half hours. Length is not the problem.
 
gnomesayin said:
Interesting. I'm not able to fit traveling to NASCAR races in my schedule currently. When I did, I enjoyed it, but I would have had zero problem with it being a 2.5 hour race instead of 3.5 hours. I used to go to the Knoxville Nationals and Chili Bowl every year among others, and while they have days of preliminary races, the main event is over in less than half an hour, and those types of races are my favorite to attend. When I go to a Saturday short track, I'd rather see a tight 3-hour program than a sprawling 5-hour one with too many filler classes. So this is where I'm coming from.



NASCAR runs on TV money at this point, and it's all about what works better for TV.
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There is nothing I hate worse than going to an event or program with a ton of dead time as I feel I am wasting my time. I believe Nascar could shorten the amount of the broadcast time and actually increase green flag racing in some instances. If they let races play out naturally and quit with the manipulations it would go a long way. Also keep the pits closed and get the race back to green ASAP when picking up hot dog wrappers and water bottles.
 
Ca
4tires17gals said:
a caution clock would end the days of the best car and driver winning.
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Just don't understand your reasoning here. Restarts test drivers more than anything else on track. It's like you guys think a caution clock is going to change the racing but it's not. Did anyone watch the Trucks this season to see how it worked? I did and it wasn't that bad. A extra caution or two is not going to make much of a difference from a regular race. Timed races is really the worst of the two as it would change the racing completely and teams would have a totally different strategy for races. Races wouldn't be the same at all with timed events in my opinion.
 
4tires17gals said:
a caution clock would end the days of the best car and driver winning.
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I sure agree for the most part. Would end the days of the best car and driver winning? Not necessarily but it most certainly could end the day of the best car and driver winning.


Simple Fan said:
Just don't understand your reasoning here. Restarts test drivers more than anything else on track. It's like you guys think a caution clock is going to change the racing but it's not.
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A caution just gave us a seven time champion. There's no reason to think that the manufactured 'Caution Clock' couldn't do that exact same thing in the future.
 
Simple Fan said:
Ca


Just don't understand your reasoning here. Restarts test drivers more than anything else on track. It's like you guys think a caution clock is going to change the racing but it's not. Did anyone watch the Trucks this season to see how it worked? I did and it wasn't that bad. A extra caution or two is not going to make much of a difference from a regular race. Timed races is really the worst of the two as it would change the racing completely and teams would have a totally different strategy for races. Races wouldn't be the same at all with timed events in my opinion.
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I will only speak for myself but the only stoppages I want to see in a race are for legitimate reasons which mainly consist of cleaning the track of debris. The problem with all cautions (legitimate and illegitimate) is that due to the double wreck restarts they often breed more cautions. At many tracks it is so important for the driver to get to the front and enjoy clean air they do ridiculously risky things on restarts causing wrecks and more restarts.

Instead of attempting to put lipstick on a pig by using gimmicks why not spend a little more time and actually fix the racing? If I am ill I don't want my doctor to treat my symptoms I want him to find a cure as treating symptoms doesn't really help me nor does it help Nascar!!!
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I will only speak for myself but the only stoppages I want to see in a race are for legitimate reasons which mainly consist of cleaning the track of debris. The problem with all cautions (legitimate and illegitimate) is that due to the double wreck restarts they often breed more cautions. At many tracks it is so important for the driver to get to the front and enjoy clean air they do ridiculously risky things on restarts causing wrecks and more restarts.

Instead of attempting to put lipstick on a pig by using gimmicks why not spend a little more time and actually fix the racing? If I am ill I don't want my doctor to treat my symptoms I want him to find a cure as treating symptoms doesn't really help me nor does it help Nascar!!!
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Taking the doctor analogy one step further, NASCAR is essentially saying: "This guy has a bad infection. If we cut off his leg, we'll have less of his body to treat."
 
People already complain when a (legitimate) caution comes out and it negatively impacts the driver they're rooting for. Adding automatic cautions can only make that worse.

If they shorten a race due to time limit then we'll be back to the same complaints we had when a race finished under caution. I suppose time limits might do away with a lot of these "overtime" finishes we have so often now. So one gimmick cancels another... although "overtime" is more exciting then just throwing the checkered flag.

With ticket prices so high, how long will it be before fans want to sue NASCAR for failing to deliver? As in, I paid to see 500 laps of racing but they shortened the race to 400 laps? Up 'til now only the weather can shorten a race, and people can't blame NASCAR for the weather, but they can blame NASCAR for shortening a race while the weather is good.
 
gone said:
People already complain when a (legitimate) caution comes out and it negatively impacts the driver they're rooting for. Adding automatic cautions can only make that worse.

If they shorten a race due to time limit then we'll be back to the same complaints we had when a race finished under caution. I suppose time limits might do away with a lot of these "overtime" finishes we have so often now. So one gimmick cancels another... although "overtime" is more exciting then just throwing the checkered flag.

With ticket prices so high, how long will it be before fans want to sue NASCAR for failing to deliver? As in, I paid to see 500 laps of racing but they shortened the race to 400 laps? Up 'til now only the weather can shorten a race, and people can't blame NASCAR for the weather, but they can blame NASCAR for shortening a race while the weather is good.
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I'm not in favor of this at all, but all NASCAR would have to do is add to the weather disclaimer to their rules about calling races early e.g. "races can be deemed official past the halfway point in the event of inclement weather or if 3 1/2 hours have passed since the races start." This would preclude any (legitimate) lawsuit.
 
gone said:
People already complain when a (legitimate) caution comes out and it negatively impacts the driver they're rooting for. Adding automatic cautions can only make that worse.

If they shorten a race due to time limit then we'll be back to the same complaints we had when a race finished under caution. I suppose time limits might do away with a lot of these "overtime" finishes we have so often now. So one gimmick cancels another... although "overtime" is more exciting then just throwing the checkered flag.

With ticket prices so high, how long will it be before fans want to sue NASCAR for failing to deliver? As in, I paid to see 500 laps of racing but they shortened the race to 400 laps? Up 'til now only the weather can shorten a race, and people can't blame NASCAR for the weather, but they can blame NASCAR for shortening a race while the weather is good.
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One thing to remember about NASCAR is that no matter what they do, the fans will complain.

And compared to other sports, ticket prices are quite low.

The only thing that's certain is that something major needs to change. The older fans aren't supporting the sport and fans like myself have stopped going to races due to my driver retiring.

Also, if you go back to the "rate the race" threads you'll see that all the races with lots of long green flag runs get the lowest scores. A caution clock may be exactly what the Cup Series needs. The only thing that's certain is that failing to adapt will cause the downward trend to continue.
 
29-4 said:
Taking the doctor analogy one step further, NASCAR is essentially saying: "This guy has a bad infection. If we cut off his leg, we'll have less of his body to treat."
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Well said and I think Brian may be the infection lol.
 
gone said:
People already complain when a (legitimate) caution comes out and it negatively impacts the driver they're rooting for. Adding automatic cautions can only make that worse.

If they shorten a race due to time limit then we'll be back to the same complaints we had when a race finished under caution. I suppose time limits might do away with a lot of these "overtime" finishes we have so often now. So one gimmick cancels another... although "overtime" is more exciting then just throwing the checkered flag.

With ticket prices so high, how long will it be before fans want to sue NASCAR for failing to deliver? As in, I paid to see 500 laps of racing but they shortened the race to 400 laps? Up 'til now only the weather can shorten a race, and people can't blame NASCAR for the weather, but they can blame NASCAR for shortening a race while the weather is good.
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I don't recall anyone ever complaining about a legit caution being called as if a car spins or there is spring or some other piece lying on the track what other alternative is there but to call a caution?

If Nascar does go to timed races that result in less green flag racing I will be OK with it if it increases interest, attendance and viewership but I am not sure how that would be possible. No one understands the less is more concept than I do but in this instance shortening races does not makes sense as very few people ever complained about the length of races to begin with.

Nascar is saying that a lot of the fans don't care that much for the racing these days so in order to make them less dissatisfied we will shorten the events so as not to agitate them as much. What sporting league or company ever does something like that?
 
Matthew2470 said:
One thing to remember about NASCAR is that no matter what they do, the fans will complain.

And compared to other sports, ticket prices are quite low.

The only thing that's certain is that something major needs to change. The older fans aren't supporting the sport and fans like myself have stopped going to races due to my driver retiring.

Also, if you go back to the "rate the race" threads you'll see that all the races with lots of long green flag runs get the lowest scores. A caution clock may be exactly what the Cup Series needs. The only thing that's certain is that failing to adapt will cause the downward trend to continue.
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JMO but I would trust trust a politician before I would put any stock in the "rate the race" threads on this forum because very little of it has to do with the quality of the race. Some people would give the race a 10 just because Shrub crashed out and other would give the race a 10 just because Shrub won. People are funny though as plate racing is not given the love here as it is in the real world as the 4 plate races are some of Nascar's best attended and most viewed races.

It is self evident that Nascar is on "the hope plan" as they make regular regular changes in the series in the hope it will change its fortunes. The hope plan is for people who plan to fail. It is very difficult for me to take what they do seriously as they crap the bed about a car being 1/1000th out of tolerance yet look the other way while a car drags a jack around on a super speedway. There are hundreds more examples of this idiocy and it needs to stop if they want to be thought of as more than a WWE offshoot.
 
29-4 said:
The further NASCAR got from it's roots, the more it has declined. I think the logical response is a return to it's roots, not a movement even further away.
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Those "roots" fans are dying off and are no longer part of a demographic that's attractive to current advertisers and sponsors.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Those "roots" fans are dying off and are no longer part of a demographic that's attractive to current advertisers and sponsors.
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I don't know why people equate respect for tradition with being elderly. I'm still in the younger part of NASCAR's demographics at 31, and I'm very annoyed with the destruction of the sport's traditions that has gone on since 2003.
 
PeopleAreStrange said:
I'm a 22 year old millennial, and I'm disgusted by this ridiculous playoff format and the thought of timed races.
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That's good to know. I'm 38, but feel way too old to be in touch with millennial culture and views. Of course generations aren't monolithic, as you've proven. For me timed races aren't such a problem, as there is nothing inherently illegitimate about a timed race format. Winning the championship is less meaningful now. It is not the same accomplishment.

Timed races may (likely) be an unnecessary change, and I understand the resistance on that front.
 
Simple Fan said:
.. Just don't understand your reasoning here. Restarts test drivers more than anything else on track. It's like you guys think a caution clock is going to change the racing but it's not. Did anyone watch the Trucks this season to see how it worked? I did and it wasn't that bad. A extra caution or two is not going to make much of a difference from a regular race. Timed races is really the worst of the two as it would change the racing completely and teams would have a totally different strategy for races. Races wouldn't be the same at all with timed events in my opinion.
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Thats debatable maybe who's best at bumping and blocking and a lot of drivers can be great on stickers, definitely better than the guy in front without them.
Then there is the deal with a 2nd car out trying to slow down in a freaking race off pit road, so p3 restarts often is advantaged over p2 etc Thats more like playing craps, or having a random joker card to use, verses pure competition with totally legitimate performance consequences.
Cautions also provide more second chances, wave arounds and lucky dogs.
They also allow a driver that is half a lap down in p5 to enter the pits bumper to bumper with the leaders.
They don't negate the importance of being the fastest all day, but they do definitely diminsh.

I think putting together long runs that cover a few pit cycles takes a lot more skill.
 
blanston said:
Timed races are much more palatable than caution clocks.... to me. I don't want either but if I had to choose, I'd take an any length timed race over another with egg timers.
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I agree with this. Reasonable timed races (3.5 hours for 500 miles?) won't make me give up on the sport. The minute I hear caution clocks are coming to the Cup Series will be the final straw for me. I'll move on to legitimately contested racing.
 
Greg said:
Thats debatable maybe who's best at bumping and blocking and a lot of drivers can be great on stickers, definitely better than the guy in front without them.
Then there is the deal with a 2nd car out trying to slow down in a freaking race off pit road, so p3 restarts often is advantaged over p2 etc Thats more like playing craps, or having a random joker card to use, verses pure competition with totally legitimate performance consequences.
Cautions also provide more second chances, wave arounds and lucky dogs.
They also allow a driver that is half a lap down in p5 to enter the pits bumper to bumper with the leaders.
They don't negate the importance of being the fastest all day, but they do definitely diminsh.

I think putting together long runs that cover a few pit cycles takes a lot more skill.
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All the things you think are bad about the cautions I think are good. I like the wave around and lucky dogs. More drivers able to win makes for a better race. I'm fine with the long runs as well but but no way does it take more skill over a restart. I just like the competition and I believe a caution clock makes for better competition across the board.
 
Simple Fan said:
I'm fine with the long runs as well but but no way does it take more skill over a restart
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I'm curious as to what makes this so. I could see how restarts may be more important - thanks to the restart carnival nature of modern Cup racing and the ability to pass multiple cars at once - but I'm not sure how they are so much better at showing a driver's skill than long runs.
 
Simple Fan said:
All the things you think are bad about the cautions I think are good. I like the wave around and lucky dogs. More drivers able to win makes for a better race. I'm fine with the long runs as well but but no way does it take more skill over a restart. I just like the competition and I believe a caution clock makes for better competition across the board.
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Sorry but this is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time.

I prefer real races rather than some contrived bull****. I really wish the bleachers would blister the asses of those that cant endure somebodies 5 second lead. It would be better for everyone, maybe they would go find something they actually like.

The racing was much better before trying to please a crowd that would rather be someone else. Thats been the problem for at least the last 10 years. We have a dumbass like Brian France that doesnt like racing and is willing to sell out or pimp to the imagination of idiots. This whole caution clock **** shouldn't even be a consideration.
 
Greg said:
Sorry but this is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time.

I prefer real races rather than some contrived bull****. I really wish the bleachers would blister the asses of those that cant endure somebodies 5 second lead. It would be better for everyone, maybe they would go find something they actually like.

The racing was much better before trying to please a crowd that would rather be someone else. Thats been the problem for at least the last 10 years. We have a dumbass like Brian France that doesnt like racing and is willing to sell out or pimp to the imagination of idiots. This whole caution clock sh!t shouldn't even be a consideration.
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I'd keep clicking like on this again and again if I could. Yes, a fool who doesn't like racing and wishes it were football chasing a mythical audience of would-be race fans that probably exist by the dozens, and in the process driving off hundreds of thousands of people who enjoyed real racing all along.
 
Greg said:
Sorry but this is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time.

I prefer real races rather than some contrived bull****. I really wish the bleachers would blister the asses of those that cant endure somebodies 5 second lead. It would be better for everyone, maybe they would go find something they actually like.

The racing was much better before trying to please a crowd that would rather be someone else. Thats been the problem for at least the last 10 years. We have a dumbass like Brian France that doesnt like racing and is willing to sell out or pimp to the imagination of idiots. This whole caution clock sh!t shouldn't even be a consideration.
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I'd watch the racing if it was as it was before all the changes and enjoy it just as much. I just feel like a lot of the changes NASCAR has made is to make the racing and competition better so I'm fine with it as well.
 
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