Chevy Fans

There’s no way to know how the revised GM cars will perform until they get out of Daytona.

The “aero package” I’m looking at on my teevee features a deck lid spoiler the size of a bathroom door.
 
aunty dive said:
There’s no way to know how the revised GM cars will perform until they get out of Daytona.

The “aero package” I’m looking at on my teevee features a deck lid spoiler the size of a bathroom door.
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With a full length hinge on it
 
Revman said:
Oh I'm not scared. WE will win our share. This is TRD we are talking about, man! Chevy will have plenty. No way they suck that bad, and if they do, NASCAR is there to help them out. All good!
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Regardless of the now, Chevy has historically been the manufacture that owned NASCAR, even when Toyota was around. Chevy's natural place is at the top. Toyota is on it lately, but even when Chevy is struggling, and Toyota is dominating, in the grand scheme of things, Toyota still has to feel like the underdog. TRD is in no position to condescend Chevy for their struggles imo. My drivers were Ford drivers for the majority of my fandom. Chevy is still all of our daddyies imo. TRD's success the last 4-5 years doesn't change who papa is imo.

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Has TRD made condescending remarks about CRD’s “natural” place at the top?

I hadn’t heard that. My most hearty congratulations to them for so doing.
 
Spotter22 said:
Rev, do you really think for 1 minute that Chevy had Hendrick do all the leg work on that car with zero representation from GM? When was the First Camaro design submitted to NASCAR? When was it approved and then ask, when was the Hawkeye introduced?
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I think that Chevy has leaned on Hendrick more than the other manufacturers lean on their A List Team for quite some time now. So, yeah, I think they got complacent in having Hendrick handle everything. I am not sure what your point is with the OSS, but the timeline tells me that both Ford and Toyota had pre-OSS designs. Am I missing something?
 
jaqua19 said:
Regardless of the now, Chevy has historically been the manufacture that owned NASCAR, even when Toyota was around. Chevy's natural place is at the top. Toyota is on it lately, but even when Chevy is struggling, and Toyota is dominating, in the grand scheme of things, Toyota still has to feel like the underdog. TRD is in no position to condescend Chevy for their struggles imo. My drivers were Ford drivers for the majority of my fandom. Chevy is still all of our daddyies imo. TRD's success the last 4-5 years doesn't change who papa is imo.

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Haven't heard anything condescending comments from TRD, and I never will because that is not what they do. I will file this one under NASCAR going to the tapered spacer because TRD was outperformed by Chevy. I agree with you about Chevy....and Ford for that matter. They have been here longer. Let's not float baseless posts out there that some desperate dislikers grab onto as fact.
 
iu
 
Revman said:
I think that Chevy has leaned on Hendrick more than the other manufacturers lean on their A List Team for quite some time now. So, yeah, I think they got complacent in having Hendrick handle everything. I am not sure what your point is with the OSS, but the timeline tells me that both Ford and Toyota had pre-OSS designs. Am I missing something?
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Thats simply not true.
 
Revman said:
I think that Chevy has leaned on Hendrick more than the other manufacturers lean on their A List Team for quite some time now. So, yeah, I think they got complacent in having Hendrick handle everything. I am not sure what your point is with the OSS, but the timeline tells me that both Ford and Toyota had pre-OSS designs. Am I missing something?
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Wait a minute. The entire TRD program is intertwined with with JGR to the point that they are pretty much one and the same, and YOU think Chevy leans on HMS too much???????
 
Johnson thought the new car needed more adjustments to run in the traffic, they weren't very impressive today, but it was hard to tell. Fords and the Toyota's looked ok.
 
HMS has made it pretty clear that they put a LOT of emphasis on outright speed at Daytona. Many times I think that comes at the expense of handling well in traffic. Persoanlly, I'd trade those million front row starts for a few more race wins.
 
Formerjackman said:
HMS has made it pretty clear that they put a LOT of emphasis on outright speed at Daytona. Many times I think that comes at the expense of handling well in traffic. Persoanlly, I'd trade those million front row starts for a few more race wins.
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Don't know where you heard or saw that. I've been paying pretty close attention and they have been spending most of their time in race setups.
 
StandOnIt said:
Johnson thought the new car needed more adjustments to run in the traffic, they weren't very impressive today, but it was hard to tell. Fords and the Toyota's looked ok.
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Johnson may be right, but he wasnt talking outside of Daytona or Dega
 
StandOnIt said:
Johnson thought the new car needed more adjustments to run in the traffic, they weren't very impressive today, but it was hard to tell. Fords and the Toyota's looked ok.
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It looked like the nose was still causing issues while pushing with making the pushee become unstable.
 
jaqua19 said:
Regardless of the now, Chevy has historically been the manufacture that owned NASCAR, even when Toyota was around. Chevy's natural place is at the top. Toyota is on it lately, but even when Chevy is struggling, and Toyota is dominating, in the grand scheme of things, Toyota still has to feel like the underdog. TRD is in no position to condescend Chevy for their struggles imo. My drivers were Ford drivers for the majority of my fandom. Chevy is still all of our daddyies imo. TRD's success the last 4-5 years doesn't change who papa is imo.

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I eventually learned to keep a box of kleenex nearby and some ear plugs to use when my non Chevy freinds are around. The Lifetime movie crowd is less disturbed.
I pray they will find peace one day.
 
StandOnIt said:
he didn't say anything about other races, just today.
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ok cool. I just remember what we brought to Daytona was pretty much what we had. We couldn't adjust anything that would give us 2 or 3 tenths.
 
StandOnIt said:
Don't know where you heard or saw that. I've been paying pretty close attention and they have been spending most of their time in race setups.
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Well, one of the places I heard it was the Steve Letarte podcast with Doug Duchart. They talked about how HMS set up a separate department for that because Mr. H was NOT happy at their lackluster qualifying results at Daytona a couple of years in a row. One of the things they began doing was making sure that all of the bodies on the cars that went to Daytona were EXACTLY the same, no variation between teams. The engine department also got the word to give maximum effort. It's not a coincidence that until today they won about 100 Daytona poles in a row.
 
StandOnIt said:
He said something about unstable, but I can't find it. Here is something else I found..interesting

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He was referring to a car coming up and easing in to your bumper and pushing as opposed to getting a run and slamming in to your bumper.
 
Spotter22 said:
Thats simply not true.
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Talk to me.....Seriously.....You know me well enough to know that I respect your stuff, so I am not playing the banter game. Talk to me....
 
Formerjackman said:
Wait a minute. The entire TRD program is intertwined with with JGR to the point that they are pretty much one and the same, and YOU think Chevy leans on HMS too much???????
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Who is Chevy's engine builder(s)? Remember that TRD took over for Cronquist as the JGR builder.
 
Revman said:
Who is Chevy's engine builder(s)? Remember that TRD took over for Cronquist as the JGR builder.
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HMS and ECR for the most part, although there have been others. ECR actually builds more engines than HMS does, many of them for non-NASCAR series, including the Cadillac prototypes.
 
Formerjackman said:
HMS and ECR for the most part, although there have been others. ECR actually builds more engines than HMS does, many of them for non-NASCAR series, including the Cadillac prototypes.
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Also don't forget that JGR was VERY MUCH involved in everything Chevy did until they crossed over to the dark side. Cronquist is one of the guys who helped develop the R07 engine.
 
Formerjackman said:
Also don't forget that JGR was VERY MUCH involved in everything Chevy did until they crossed over to the dark side. Cronquist is one of the guys who helped develop the R07 engine.
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Well, not enough because that is why they left. They were second to Hendrick. Am I right? Again, the point being that Chevy leaned on Hendrick heavily. How much support was necessary on a 13 season Championship run--beyond writing checks?
 
jws926 said:
It looked like the nose was still causing issues while pushing with making the pushee become unstable.
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Still can't figure it out? Wow.....they got a whole new car....and still?
 
jaqua19 said:
Regardless of the now, Chevy has historically been the manufacture that owned NASCAR, even when Toyota was around. Chevy's natural place is at the top. Toyota is on it lately, but even when Chevy is struggling, and Toyota is dominating, in the grand scheme of things, Toyota still has to feel like the underdog. TRD is in no position to condescend Chevy for their struggles imo. My drivers were Ford drivers for the majority of my fandom. Chevy is still all of our daddyies imo. TRD's success the last 4-5 years doesn't change who papa is imo.

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LOL, Chevy has not "historically been the manufacture that owned NASCAR". It has had its good years, but you forget about the years Petty dominated in Plymouths and Dodges... about Ford's dominance in the 1960s... Pontiac had a turn... even Hudson had a dominant period.

Ever since NASCAR decided to take over with the COT and the Generation cars following it, there isn't much factory sheet metal involved. Yeah the auto manufacturers have had some say in developing the aerodynamics, but the overall product is a conglomeration intended to equalized the brands - not to allow any one brand to innovate itself a significant advantage. NASCAR has been pacifying brands with aero tweaks for decades now.
 
Formerjackman said:
HMS has made it pretty clear that they put a LOT of emphasis on outright speed at Daytona. Many times I think that comes at the expense of handling well in traffic. Persoanlly, I'd trade those million front row starts for a few more race wins.
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I hear you, but I wish we could get this about speed again. Part of the challenge of a race weekend should be outright speed. With these cars, we all know that Stenhouse's pole was a PR exercise. Oh well. MY Toyotas qualified much, much better than expected, and WE are great in race trim. Need some luck in keeping our car count intact at the end....
 
gone said:
LOL, Chevy has not "historically been the manufacture that owned NASCAR". It has had its good years, but you forget about the years Petty dominated in Plymouths and Dodges... about Ford's dominance in the 1960s... Pontiac had a turn... even Hudson had a dominant period.

Ever since NASCAR decided to take over with the COT and the Generation cars following it, there isn't much factory sheet metal involved. Yeah the auto manufacturers have had some say in developing the aerodynamics, but the overall product is a conglomeration intended to equalized the brands - not to allow any one brand to innovate itself a significant advantage. NASCAR has been pacifying brands with aero tweaks for decades now.
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Yeah, but that is the weirdness that is NASCAR. Come and play manufacturers, and we will make sure that you are level with everybody else. There isn't a stick and ball team that sets out to be equal to the competition. So, we have this tight box of development which forces the dreaded engineers to exploit details for an advantage which is the same advantage any competitor in any sport craves. This level playing field thing is just kind of bizarre to me.....and it really doesn't work. Toyota won 19 races last year. I get that there has to be some cost containment, or this would get stupid, but I do think that NASCAR has to introduce some adjustability into the cars so it becomes the teams decision making that wins races. The manufacturers job is to give the teams the best tools to make those decisions IMO.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, but that is the weirdness that is NASCAR. Come and play manufacturers, and we will make sure that you are level with everybody else. There isn't a stick and ball team that sets out to be equal to the competition. So, we have this tight box of development which forces the dreaded engineers to exploit details for an advantage which is the same advantage any competitor in any sport craves. This level playing field thing is just kind of bizarre to me.....and it really doesn't work. Toyota won 19 races last year. I get that there has to be some cost containment, or this would get stupid, but I do think that NASCAR has to introduce some adjustability into the cars so it becomes the teams decision making that wins races. The manufacturers job is to give the teams the best tools to make those decisions IMO.
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NASCAR has forgotten its roots - it was individual team innovation that built it up from the cornfields and added interest in seeing what people could do. Now NASCAR seems to want to be IROC... maybe it should look in its grandstands and at what happened to IROC...

It has never been unusual for there to be dominant teams or brands. Somebody figures something out, and has an advantage until everybody else figures that same thing out or finds something even better. Although I agree that in principle there should be cost containment, in reality racers will always spend everything they can to gain an advantage. Put in a rule to constrain costs in one place, and racers spend their money in another place. There is always somebody with a money advantage, but despite that dominant people come and go while the racing continues on.
 
Nascar has forgotten very little. Rules in racing have had to be made, some forced to be made. For instance in the 50's why did they outlaw fuel injection, or in the 60's, why did they make an engine displacement rule, or out law certain cars. It happened as recently as the 90's with one of Evernham's cars or why was certain popular engine architecture (SOHC or DOHC) outlawed?. If you don't know the answers to those questions and why it was done, how the sport has evolved and continues to do so, I suppose some of this stuff seems new or strange. It's racing, it isn't isolated to Nascar but all series of racing and it has been going on for years. Teams will continue to try to work out side of the rules or make stuff that will force the sanctioning body to make more rules. This ain't anything goes cowboys.
 
Revman said:
Well, not enough because that is why they left. They were second to Hendrick. Am I right? Again, the point being that Chevy leaned on Hendrick heavily. How much support was necessary on a 13 season Championship run--beyond writing checks?
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I don't truly know why they left GM any more than you do, but I'd say just as was likely the case with SHR, somebody threw a BIG pile of money at them. There certainly wasn't anything wrong with JGR's (or SHR's) performance levels when they were the "second team" in the Chevy stable. You would have a VERY HARD time convincing me that there was anything either team wasn't getting from Chevy as far as getting results on the track. I think the simple truth in Toyota's case they knew that the original teams they aligned with in Cup were a bunch of dogs, so they wrote a huge check to Preacher Joe to steal away a top notch team that could be their lead team. As time has gone on, they have basically swallowed their lead time and run their whole NASCAR program through JGR. I would say TRD leans on JGR, (if you can still draw a distinction between the two) more than Chevy leans on HMS, because TRD doesn't HAVE anybody else that they can go to.
 
StandOnIt said:
Nascar has forgotten very little. Rules in racing have had to be made, some forced to be made. For instance in the 50's why did they outlaw fuel injection, or in the 60's, why did they make an engine displacement rule, or out law certain cars. It happened as recently as the 90's with one of Evernham's cars or why was certain popular engine architecture (SOHC or DOHC) outlawed?. If you don't know the answers to those questions and why it was done, how the sport has evolved and continues to do so, I suppose some of this stuff seems new or strange. It's racing, it isn't isolated to Nascar but all series of racing and it has been going on for years. Teams will continue to try to work out side of the rules or make stuff that will force the sanctioning body to make more rules. This ain't anything goes cowboys.
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Well, if NASCAR has not forgotten its roots then it chooses to ignore them. A look at its empty grandstands and plunging TV ratings show the results. NASCAR can't even get a full field of cars anymore at a lot of its races, despite cutting the number of cars that it calls a full field.

From being a participant for many years, I have a pretty good understanding of how racers push the rules and how sanctioning bodies react and how this influences the sport's evolution. Possibly a keener understanding than those who only watch from the sidelines. I'm not saying that rules aren't necessary or that it should be "anything goes". But the rules they make stifle innovation and invoke IROC. There are other ways they could go that would allow innovation and bring back brand recognition while keeping speeds and safety in check. As far as rules to limit teams spending money, those are pipe dreams. Rules to equalize competition are also pipe dreams. Racers build equipment and obtain talent to dominate their competition - not to cooperate with competitors so everybody can be a big happy playground group. I prefer innovation in team garages rather than by auto manufacturers or by sanctioning body rules.

The parts you list getting outlawed were mostly because they were not available to the public via standard dealer outlets at the time, particularly on the model cars that were legal to run in the Cup series. NASCAR eventually made the homologation rule, and that was enough hanging rope to allow the manufacturers to realize they couldn't afford their Wild West ways. Some of the restriction rules were due to safety concerns, since the suspensions and brakes and tires of the time could not stand up to the speeds and forces generated (particularly at the big tracks). Despite what rules NASCAR has put into place, its cars share almost nothing with their street counterparts - not even dimensions or drive train. It's not even legal anymore to take a car off the dealer lot and build it into a competitive Cup car. If that's not forgetting it roots, then I suppose NASCAR truly does stand for "No Actual Stock Cars Are Represented".
 
What that has to do with the romantic notion of Nascar abandoning it roots, I have no idea. I guess they need to round up some bootleggers and put them behind the wheel of some 40's rides and the boomers that built the sport. BTW I have never found a definitive definition of what a "stock" car is. Somebody show me one from the source.
 
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I'd just be happy if a Chevy makes the Championship Four ( preferably a 9, 24 42 or 1). But I am excited for the Chevy crew this year I think they will be in the mix more and really thats all you can ask for.
 
The car doesn't have the blunt nose like the Fords or the Toyota, it still has a little point at the front so the super speedways could still be a challenge. I don't know what in the hell they were doing racing all by themselves in the Clash. What could they learn from that. I sure didn't see them on the bottom doing anything impressive like catching the pack and passing them and then the bogus fuel mileage thing that wasn't going to work. The wrecks saved them from a lot of questions IMO.
 
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