Chevy Fans

StandOnIt said:
What that has to do with the romantic notion of Nascar abandoning it roots, I have no idea. I guess they need to round up some bootleggers and put them behind the wheel of some 40's rides and the boomers that built the sport. BTW I have never found a definitive definition of what a "stock" car is. Somebody show me one from the source.
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You can find NASCAR's definition of what a "stock" car is if you wade through its rule book. At least you admit you don't know NASCAR's roots.
 
gone said:
You can find NASCAR's definition of what a "stock" car is if you wade through its rule book. At least you admit you don't know NASCAR's roots.
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what are Nascar roots and the definition of what is a "stock car" is it an essay question or answer? You brought it up BTW.
 
StandOnIt said:
what are Nascar roots and the definition of what is a "stock car" is it an essay question or answer? You brought it up BTW.
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I'll let you do your own homework.
The "roots" concern came out of my answers to posts #45 and #73. You're the one demanding a definition of what a "stock car" is.
 
gone said:
NASCAR has forgotten its roots - it was individual team innovation that built it up from the cornfields and added interest in seeing what people could do.
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You are all over the place. whatever, Nascar's roots came from corn.:D I give :D
 
Not trying to get a big bru ha going, it's funny and at the same time interesting to me though. Bill France's idea of a stock car changed with the wind. The multi carb'd Ford below ran 73 Nascar races but Chevy or anybody else couldn't run fuel injection but they could run two four barrels (that got outlawed too) The Jags couldn't race anymore after they won a road race, France said no European cars. He kept up the European theme when in the 60's he outlawed the single overhead cam Ford engine..said it was a European design, outlawed the same year as the SOHC Ford was the Hemi engine. Mopar pulled out of the series for a year. Ford helped them come back the next year, the crowd had disappeared with no Petty and just the Fords winning all of the races. If one defines a stock car as an all original equipment ride, my point is there has never been one from the start unless you wanted to get your ass beat out on the track.

unknown-billy-carden-began-racing-modified-stock-cars-like-this-one-picture-id136148992
 
StandOnIt said:
Not trying to get a big bru ha going, it's funny and at the same time interesting to me though. Bill France's idea of a stock car changed with the wind. The multi carb'd Ford below ran 73 Nascar races but Chevy or anybody else couldn't run fuel injection but they could run two four barrels (that got outlawed too) The Jags couldn't race anymore after they won a road race, France said no European cars. He kept up the European theme when in the 60's he outlawed the single overhead cam Ford engine..said it was a European design, outlawed the same year as the SOHC Ford was the Hemi engine. Mopar pulled out of the series for a year. Ford helped them come back the next year, the crowd had disappeared with no Petty and just the Fords winning all of the races. If one defines a stock car as an all original equipment ride, my point is there has never been one from the start unless you wanted to get your ass beat out on the track.

unknown-billy-carden-began-racing-modified-stock-cars-like-this-one-picture-id136148992
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Sexy car.

Love how you see beer bottles sitting right there with the teams and drivers track-side. :D
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't truly know why they left GM any more than you do, but I'd say just as was likely the case with SHR, somebody threw a BIG pile of money at them. There certainly wasn't anything wrong with JGR's (or SHR's) performance levels when they were the "second team" in the Chevy stable. You would have a VERY HARD time convincing me that there was anything either team wasn't getting from Chevy as far as getting results on the track. I think the simple truth in Toyota's case they knew that the original teams they aligned with in Cup were a bunch of dogs, so they wrote a huge check to Preacher Joe to steal away a top notch team that could be their lead team. As time has gone on, they have basically swallowed their lead time and run their whole NASCAR program through JGR. I would say TRD leans on JGR, (if you can still draw a distinction between the two) more than Chevy leans on HMS, because TRD doesn't HAVE anybody else that they can go to.
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I do know why JGR left Chevy. Money wasn't the issue with Toyota. TRD builds motors. Chevy doesn't. So, I would disagree on the leaning thing. I won't go further with this. Your argument is logical, but inaccurate. No disrespect intended.
 
Greg said:
I eventually learned to keep a box of kleenex nearby and some ear plugs to use when my non Chevy freinds are around. The Lifetime movie crowd is less disturbed.
I pray they will find peace one day.
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Just so I'm clear, I don't give a crap about manufacture competition. Means nothing to me, no allegiance whatsoever to any of them. Just calling what I have observed.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
Revman said:
I do know why JGR left Chevy. Money wasn't the issue with Toyota. TRD builds motors. Chevy doesn't. So, I would disagree on the leaning thing. I won't go further with this. Your argument is logical, but inaccurate. No disrespect intended.
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I'm not following your point, please enlighten me. Also am I right that TRD didn't take over the Cup engine building for JGR, until AFTER they had all kinds of reliability issues?
 
Revman said:
Hendrick builds the R07 engine for Chevy....and Mr. Hold My Watch builds for Chevy.
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Reps from HMS, RCR, JGR and DEI had input on the design of the original R07 but GM Racing builds them for the teams. Engine development is another animal.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Reps from HMS, RCR, JGR and DEI had input on the design of the original R07 but GM Racing builds them for the teams. Engine development is another animal.
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Hendrick and ECR build the engines. GM does not build them
 
I wonder if the Compacted Graphite Iron engine blocks are tired after the long trip up from Brazil?

Making popcorn now.
 
Spotter22 said:
Hendrick and ECR build the engines. GM does not build them
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How about assemble from parts and build and develop the engines. Would that make everybody happy? probably not. The Yota teams don't build sheet, they have TRD doing it for them. That used to be illegal BTW, I guess Nascar got tired of enforcing that, or economics changes, whatever. I think it was during Brian's term when the change occurred.
 
StandOnIt said:
How about assemble from parts and build and develop the engines. Would that make everybody happy? probably not. The Yota teams don't build sheet, they have TRD doing it for them. That used to be illegal BTW, I guess Nascar got tired of enforcing that, or economics changes, whatever. I think it was during Brian's term when the change occurred.
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Assemble, build, Produce.......... whatever they want to call it but you'll back your truck up to Hendrick or ECR to get it. ;)
 
What TRD does really isn't any different than what Roush Yates does, or even what Holman Moody and Ray Nichols did in the 60's and it wasn't illegal then or now. As long as the parts manufactured by TRD are available over the counter for other builders to buy, then it's perfectly legal. I know there has been at least one other Toyota engine builder out there, so there doesn't seem to be a problem. What no sanctioning body should EVER allow is what Indy car does where the engines are leased directly from the manufacturer only. That is a TERRIBLE rule and freezes out other potential competitors.
 
Didn't JGR get caught with an illegal weighted piston or rod a few years ago in a Toyota engine?
 
Formerjackman said:
What TRD does really isn't any different than what Roush Yates does, or even what Holman Moody and Ray Nichols did in the 60's and it wasn't illegal then or now. As long as the parts manufactured by TRD are available over the counter for other builders to buy, then it's perfectly legal. I know there has been at least one other Toyota engine builder out there, so there doesn't seem to be a problem. What no sanctioning body should EVER allow is what Indy car does where the engines are leased directly from the manufacturer only. That is a TERRIBLE rule and freezes out other potential competitors.
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oh crap here we go again. Holman and Moody like Hendrick Childers etc. today is a result of Nascar trying to keep the manufacturers OUT of outright participation in the Nascar series. In Holman Moody's case it was a shell company under another name to hide the Ford factories involvement in the sport directly. Looking at today, Hendrick, Childers, Yates etc. are left overs from that era where as Toyota Racing Development is a factory Toyota effort without the middlemen who make a variety of racing engines from midgets, world rally, etc/ world wide.
 
Nitro Dude said:
Didn't JGR get caught with an illegal weighted piston or rod a few years ago in a Toyota engine?
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Spotter22 said:
Yes sir, A rod I think
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One connecting rod was 2.7 grams below the 525 gram minimum weight permitted by the rules.

One as in one. You don't have to be an engine builder to understand that a mistake occurred.
 
aunty dive said:
One connecting rod was 2.7 grams below the 525 gram minimum weight permitted by the rules.

One as in one. You don't have to be an engine builder to understand that a mistake occurred.
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Oh I agree and i certainly wasnt saying it was on purpose.
 
I think around the same time they were having reliability problems and they ended up axing one of the motor factory big wigs.
 
StandOnIt said:
oh crap here we go again. Holman and Moody like Hendrick Childers etc. today is a result of Nascar trying to keep the manufacturers OUT of outright participation in the Nascar series. In Holman Moody's case it was a shell company under another name to hide the Ford factories involvement in the sport directly. Looking at today, Hendrick, Childers, Yates etc. are left overs from that era where as Toyota Racing Development is a factory Toyota effort without the middlemen who make a variety of racing engines from midgets, world rally, etc/ world wide.
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Ok, how does any of this invalidate what I said?
 
Formerjackman said:
Ok, how does any of this invalidate what I said?
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I really wish you could comprehend and this is what we do round n round. The simple answer is that Holman Moody was vreated for Ford to back door parts to Nascar BECAUSE there were rules in place by Nascar Prohibiting DIRECT factory involvement. TRD which is short for Toyota Racing Devolpment IS direct factory involvement. There's your difference. You can't walk in or out of either place then or now without factory approval to buy their products.
 
I thought the American Automobile Manufacturers Association was responsible for banning factory involvement back then.
 
aunty dive said:
I thought the American Automobile Manufacturers Association was responsible for banning factory involvement back then.
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Could be. As with almost everything Nascar, what was in force one year doesn't mean it won't change the next. Frankly I think they screwed Toyota when they first came in. They wouldn't let the use the same engine they used for cup cars in the trucks and made them develop a different engine..probably why they were so pissed when the trucks went to the spec engine. But over time I think they all have been screwed one way or another over the years.
 
StandOnIt said:
I really wish you could comprehend and this is what we do round n round. The simple answer is that Holman Moody was vreated for Ford to back door parts to Nascar BECAUSE there were rules in place by Nascar Prohibiting DIRECT factory involvement. TRD which is short for Toyota Racing Devolpment IS direct factory involvement. There's your difference. You can't walk in or out of either place then or now without factory approval to buy their products.
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BUT, as long as they don't actually prevent people from buying the parts, I don't really care. I have been making the point for some time (mostly just to irritate Revman) that the distinction between TRD and JGR is a sham, but It's no different than the sham that HM or Nichols was. I wish that wasn't the things worked, but I I understand the reality of the situation.
 
aunty dive said:
I thought the American Automobile Manufacturers Association was responsible for banning factory involvement back then.
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I don't believe that the AMA ban carried any official weight, it was purely up to the signatories, (which they all were at the time) to follow it. Ford and Chrysler kind of dipped in and out of (official) company involvement in motorsports for several years before Henry Ford II finally disposed of all pretense of compliance, with Chrysler right there soon after. GM was the lone major holdout, killing Bunkie Knudsen's Pontiac program and then the Chevy "mystery motor" project as well as Duntov's Corvette Grand Sport program. GM was still trying to keep official company involvement "under cover" until they finally relented in 1998 and announced the Factory Corvette GT1 program.
 
It carried sufficient weight to drive the competitors underground.

They all started cheating it the next day. As per usual.
 
Spotter22 said:
Yes sir, A rod I think
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That's what I thought. If I remember I think I kind of stood by them saying it was probably a mistake and didn't really have any performance advantage.
aunty dive said:
One connecting rod was 2.7 grams below the 525 gram minimum weight permitted by the rules.

One as in one. You don't have to be an engine builder to understand that a mistake occurred.
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Yep, if I remember right I said back then that it was probably a mistake.
 
aunty dive said:
It carried sufficient weight to drive the competitors underground.

They all started cheating it the next day. As per usual.
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The ONLY reason they signed it in the first place was a PR move. This was all in era of the massive crash at LeMans that killed a large number of spectators as well as almost monthly deaths open wheel competition, and to a lesser extent NASCAR and caused the AAA to end the sanctioning of auto racing. Other than GM which had their own reasons, I don't think Ford or Chrysler ever REALLY wanted to follow the ban, they just didn't want the bad press for ignoring it, so they developed backdoor programs.
 
aunty dive said:
Vince Piggins.

SEDCO
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Yes, and just like the NASCAR Pontiacs, the Mystery Motor and the Grand Sport program, they were all very quickly found out by GM upper management and killed. Only the Pontiac program lasted more than a few months. After that, GM sort of settled into a generation of "plausible deniability" where they surely knew Duntov and others were breaking the spirit of the agreement, but would be left alone as long as they weren't overt about it. Regardless, Chevy went a decade without ANY NASCAR involvement. The very few Chevy's that ran were 98% standalone efforts. Even The Jr. Johnson/Richard Howard comeback Chevelle in 72 had no factory involvement that I am aware of. I believe it was only later that Chevy (especially after the switch to small block engines) engineers began to get involved again. I remember when it was a topic of conversation in the early 80's when a few GM Cup cars began actually sport Chevy, Buick, Pontiac a Olds decals. I don't think ANY 70's GM Cup car had factory signage on them ever.
 
You don't believe it carried any weight in spite of the fact that it drove all of them underground. Fabulous.

Your history lesson notwithstanding, the sun has never risen on a day when race parts for the chosen few weren't available out the back door at GM.
 
aunty dive said:
You don't believe it carried any weight in spite of the fact that it drove all of them underground. Fabulous.

Your history lesson notwithstanding, the sun has never risen on a day when race parts for the chosen few weren't available out the back door at GM.
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The only weight it carried was public relations. When Henry Ford finally stopped hiding from the AMA and openly supported racing, the world didn't stop turning. Who was the AMA to tell Ford Motor Company what they could or couldn't do? The other advantage of going back door was you could carefully cultivate the success into good PR while distancing yourself from any failures. GM was the only one who made a pretense of honoring the ban long term, but that was mostly driven by the attitudes of the top GM brass, AND that was an era where GM lived in constant fear of being attacked and dismantled for being a monopoly. They had an official policy of not drawing too much attention to themselves. Frederic Donner, who was GM chairman from 1958 to 1967 had VERY STRONG anti-racing anti performance attitudes. Remember the years when GM wouldn't allow any division to put an engine larger than 400 cubic inches in a small or intermediate car?
 
WTF is your point?

The AMA “ban” caused all manufacturers to officially disavow auto racing. They went underground the next day.

Those are indisputable facts. Whether or not any of them had ulterior PR or other motives is irrelevant speculation.
 
What was the AMA without the manufacturers? Absolutely nothing. They had no power. The racing ban went into place BECAUSE the manufacturers WANTED it to at that time. Once the storm blew over, they all started dabbling again. The National Association of Widget Manufacturers can make all of the proclamations they want, but if the majority of the membership refuses to abide by them, it doesn't mean a whole lot.
 
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