Cup RACE thread --- Martinsville

[JGR_20]

They should have used secret language, just so we could laugh at it...

“Erik hold the lettuce”

I don’t know what they should so. I could care less how they crown the champ. Its gonna be one gimmick or another anyhow. This type of stuff will come up each season.

5th grade spelling bee’s hold more credibility than how we crown our champions in this sport

 

[StandOnIt]

Intentionally spinning to cause a race altering caution is not the same as telling someone to NOT pass a teammate. Where does this slippery slope end? Do we then have to penalize every driver that drafts with a teammate at plate tracks (or intermediates with the 550 package) instead of pulling out to pass? I get the "optics" are bad, but come on. Comparing this to the MWR fallout is apples and oranges. Gosh I feel absolutely dirty defending JGR...

I see your point, but I think it pays to look at what the results are for doing what they do. It's one thing to rig a restart during the year, but in THE manufactured game 7 CUT LINE, EVERY POINT MATTERS, Jones's team action changed the outcome of the race.

 

[Nitro Dude]

I would be extemely surprised if there was any penalty (except maybe a fine)
JGR could argue they just wanted to tell Jones to save the tires.

But they didn't say save your tires they said don't pass the 20. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is going to be hard to argue it's a giraffe.

 

[Dr_B_UNC]

I see your point, but I think it pays to look at what the results are for doing what they do. It's one thing to rig a restart during the year, but in THE manufactured game 7 CUT LINE, EVERY POINT MATTERS, Jones's team action changed the outcome of the race.

Fair point and I respect why people would be upset.

 

[Nitro Dude]

Intentionally spinning to cause a race altering caution is not the same as telling someone to NOT pass a teammate. Where does this slippery slope end? Do we then have to penalize every driver that drafts with a teammate at plate tracks (or intermediates with the 550 package) instead of pulling out to pass? I get the "optics" are bad, but come on. Comparing this to the MWR fallout is apples and oranges. Gosh I feel absolutely dirty defending JGR...

It is not the same thing but it is intended for the same out come. A rule is a rule either enforce it for everyone or don't enforce it at all.

 

[StandOnIt]

Fair point and I respect why people would be upset.

Truth be known, I don't have a clue what Jones passing or not did to the race. I'm only guessing and looking at that car's action when any of them moving up or down changes the whole system. That is the sad part IMO with this whole playoff mess.

 

[Nitro Dude]

I bet the Ford and Chevy teams in the bottom 4 are hoping NASCAR doesn't do anything because everyone knows Harvick and Phoenix are a match made in heaven and they would probably rather take their chances with Hamlin.

 

[BomberJones]

Personally, I think the dumb part was to blatantly tell him not to pass... that’s where it becomes a slap in the face. Could have had code words to let them know to overdrive the tires and have to pit, taking them out of the equation. Hell, slam the clutch and say something broke... ANYTHING to hide the fact that they were hand picking the running order of their cars to help one at the expense of the others... that is altering the finish order. Period.

I don’t think they can do much in this scenario except take Hamlin out of the Championship 4 and put Harvick in... but then NASCAR is altering the finish and they don’t want to do that either, no matter how many conspiracy theories exist.

I would love, though, to see NASCAR use this as a clear example of where the line is on the rule and start suspending charters for teams who soil the nature of racing and try to manipulate the outcome beyond letting the race speak for itself in the final laps. For example in this situation, Joe Gibbs would only be allowed to run 3 cars next year.

That way, the teams will get hit harder than any fine when they are down one car for a year, losing sponsor dollars, losing the interest of potential new sponsors and possible factory deals, losing the interest and ability to hire young drivers into their program at that level.

It also might possibly give a lower tiered team access to a top tier driver or equipment like all of these “Satelite Teams” and partners we’re seeing now, even if it’s only on a year lease, because that would be the only way to keep a driver under contract to the penalized team... you get to keep your driver on the track with your equipment... but JD What’s-his-butt Race Team has to manage it and gets to keep all the race winnings from it.

If Gibbs, Stewart, Penske or Hendrick had to go one season with one less car in their pocket, the effects would be felt a whole lot more than a money fine.

 

[kyle18fan]

BTW, Harvick did give 100% effort to make the chase, just missed that point he could have got had he nailed Kyle a little better.

Out and out purposefully wrecking another driver to gain a spot is fairly bad business, the bully did it very poorly and made the season for me ..... I am now a satisfied NASCAR fan

 

[Nitro Dude]

Personally, I think the dumb part was to blatantly tell him not to pass... that’s where it becomes a slap in the face. Could have had code words to let them know to overdrive the tires and have to pit, taking them out of the equation. Hell, slam the clutch and say something broke... ANYTHING to hide the fact that they were hand picking the running order of their cars to help one at the expense of the others... that is altering the finish order. Period.

I don’t think they can do much in this scenario except take Hamlin out of the Championship 4 and put Harvick in... but then NASCAR is altering the finish and they don’t want to do that either, no matter how many conspiracy theories exist.

I would love, though, to see NASCAR use this as a clear example of where the line is on the rule and start suspending charters for teams who soil the nature of racing and try to manipulate the outcome beyond letting the race speak for itself in the final laps. For example in this situation, Joe Gibbs would only be allowed to run 3 cars next year.

That way, the teams will get hit harder than any fine when they are down one car for a year, losing sponsor dollars, losing the interest of potential new sponsors and possible factory deals, losing the interest and ability to hire young drivers into their program at that level.

It also might possibly give a lower tiered team access to a top tier driver or equipment like all of these “Satelite Teams” and partners we’re seeing now, even if it’s only on a year lease, because that would be the only way to keep a driver under contract to the penalized team... you get to keep your driver on the track with your equipment... but JD What’s-his-butt Race Team has to manage it and gets to keep all the race winnings from it.

If Gibbs, Stewart, Penske or Hendrick had to go one season with one less car in their pocket, the effects would be felt a whole lot more than a money fine.

Sorry but putting a lot of people out of work and taking away their jobs that support their wife and kids which you would be doing if you shut a team down is not the way to go. They put a whole company out of business and a whole lot of people out of jobs at MWR and that didn't do anyone any good, including NASCAR. That is the last thing anyone should want to see happen especially after so many were already on unemployment earlier this year and still may not have completely recuperated from that hit.

 

[RFK-PensekeFan]

 

[BomberJones]

Ah, going for the sympathy vote here. It does suck for those people, for those families. It does. However...

Nobody made MWR try to get away with what they did but MWR. NASCAR didn’t put them out of business, they did that themselves by showing sponsors that they were cheaters. MWR put cheating to win above those people’s jobs, made a mockery of all the work they put in to get themselves in a position to earn a legit chance. Win or lose they worked to get there, and then the call to the 15 **** on all of it. **** right on every person that worked for them. Didn’t care what happened after the race because there was no rule to deter them from trying... well they pushed the envelope too far and it pushed back.

And maybe, just maybe when enough people know the risk, and care about their teams then those obvious team orders will fall on deaf ears, and drivers and crew chiefs will do what’s right... Or like I said originally... At least try to hide the cheating. Like, a little bit even.

I don’t get the argument that NASCAR should feel responsible for a team’s payroll if the owner sees an over abundance of resources as disposable to win a championship.

The idea is to put a big scary rule that everybody understands in place... and then, stay with me here... don’t cheat. At least, don’t make it easy to get caught. I mean... at least aim for shady instead of blatant so they can’t beat a team over the head with what they did.

 

[Nitro Dude]

Ah, going for the sympathy vote here. It does suck for those people, for those families. It does. However...

Nobody made MWR try to get away with what they did but MWR. NASCAR didn’t put them out of business, they did that themselves by showing sponsors that they were cheaters. MWR put cheating to win above those people’s jobs, made a mockery of all the work they put in to get themselves in a position to earn a legit chance. Win or lose they worked to get there, and then the call to the 15 **** on all of it. **** right on every person that worked for them. Didn’t care what happened after the race because there was no rule to deter them from trying... well they pushed the envelope too far and it pushed back.

And maybe, just maybe when enough people know the risk, and care about their teams then those obvious team orders will fall on deaf ears, and drivers and crew chiefs will do what’s right... Or like I said originally... At least try to hide the cheating. Like, a little bit even.

I don’t get the argument that NASCAR should feel responsible for a team’s payroll if the owner sees an over abundance of resources as disposable to win a championship.

The idea is to put a big scary rule that everybody understands in place... and then, stay with me here... don’t cheat. At least, don’t make it easy to get caught. I mean... at least aim for shady instead of blatant so they can’t beat a team over the head with what they did.

Like I said earlier MWR going out of business didn't set any example and it didn't stop the cheating or we wouldn't be having this conversation. If you are the management of any large company as big as NASCAR and you can't figure out how to make an example without putting peoples livelihood in jeopardy then you shouldn't be in a management position. I take this stuff very serious because I have seen to many employees working for racing teams lose their livelihoods due to the loss of sponsorship from no fault of their own other then trying to do the job they love to do to support their families. I would rather see NASCAR drop championships and not race for points before seeing a team closed down. Right now in NHRA one of the largest teams out there John Force Racing and 2 other teams have been shut down most of the year and most of the employees were laid off and may not be back due to the pandemic. Just a few weeks ago another big team was informed that the sponsor was pulling it's sponsorship and now that team is parked. So if you feel I'm going for the sympathy vote...then I will wear that title proudly if it will keep a race teams doors open.

 

[10-4]

I bet the Ford and Chevy teams in the bottom 4 are hoping NASCAR doesn't do anything because everyone knows Harvick and Phoenix are a match made in heaven and they would probably rather take their chances with Hamlin.

I know he's won 9 races there but that's been a long time ago and others caught up to him. And with this new configuration I'd put my money on the 22 or the 9.

 

[Nitro Dude]

I know he's won 9 races there but that's been a long time ago and others caught up to him. And with this new configuration I'd put my money on the 22 or the 9.

Good point. I have already put my money on the 9.

 

[harkin]

Mitch
@Mitch_from_MI

This isn't football, those of us who buy the tickets and buy the T-shirts loved it for what it was and NASCAR has spent 15 years chasing people that don't care about racing
_

Comment of the decade.

 

[LewTheShoe]

Two wrong decisions. NASCAR has put its head in the sand, wrongly hoping no one will notice the cheating going on.

I regard Harvick's infraction as the more serious of the two. How is it fair that Harvick could hook a competitor in the quarter panel and thus "steal" championship advancement from another driver who is also racing his guts out to get to Phoenix? It's not. And it's no excuse that Harvick's maneuver was unsuccessful.

Would it have been OK if Keselowski had hooked Chase Elliott and crashed him out of the race, as Chase passed the 2 car for the lead? No, that wouldn't be OK either.

Cowardly decision, NASCAR.

 

[StandOnIt]

What's to stop teams from blocking in the pits or on the track for the last race. If nothing is going to happen why not. Probably can't be as blatant as wrecking them out, but a little nudge leading to a flat on a restart. Stuff we as fans don't want to see also.

 

[StandOnIt]