Cup RACE thread --- Martinsville

NBC App uploaded the race, this will be my activity today. Stoked to watch this one
 
JGR_20 said:
. But it’s here to stay. No way they could ever strip away the entertainment/drama of having a chase/playoff at the end of the season. There’s a generation of fans who have been raised on the NASCAR chase/playoffs. NASCAR cannot afford to run them off, so I see both sides...
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If NASCAR keeps losing fans like they've done since the playoff format started, they'll have to do something. In the past couple of years they have introduced disqualifications and announced a return of Cup racing to the dirt. If that's possible, abolishing the playoffs is also possible.
Dr_B_UNC said:
The most obvious change (short of scrapping playoffs entirely, which they're too stubborn to do) is to grant the regular season champ an automatic slot in the final.
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I wouldn't be in favor of this, it would allow the regular season champ to just ride around for 9 straight races.
Dr_B_UNC said:
UNTIL... we have a year with more parity and regular season champ has like 3 or 4 wins and second place is right at their heels with either same amount of wins or one less.
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And when there is enough parity it's likely that several drivers will still be in contention for the title at the final race. It won't happen every year, but it's impossible to artificially recreate the 1992 Hooters 500.
 
StandOnIt said:
I would think by now in this day and age somebody would have posted them telling Jones to lay off the 11. And yeah I wonder if the 100% rule is on the same page as "boys, have at it"
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Yeah. As much as I'd love to kick and scream about JGR team orders, I don't see any difference between what they allegedly did and a driver asking a teammate to "let them in line" which happens almost every week.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
How was what Jones did not a clear violation of the 100% rule (that we've never seen enforced lol)?
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Literally asked this during the race lol. It was clear as day. But we all know that rule was and is BS. Nothing but posturing after the MWR Spingate fiasco.

They’ll never actually use it. Especially at the expense of cash cow Toyota.
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
Yeah. As much as I'd love to kick and scream about JGR team orders, I don't see any difference between what they allegedly did and a driver asking a teammate to "let them in line" which happens almost every week.
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Given Nascar'slong history of standing behind their decisions even when they are shown to be wrong..something as minor as this even if there was the conversation they wouldn't do anything. They have seemed to lay off on the uncontrolled tire nonsense, and somebody knew their rule book luckily and over turned Elliott's jumping jackman.
 
LJ7201 said:
This system is messed up but I still take this over the pre 2004 Latford system that gave you hardly anything for winning.
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Well, I've insisted for years that the answer was to modify the Latford System to reward performance on the top end of the ladder by rewarding wins a LOT more, and creating a bigger gap between top fives and top tens, and top tens from 11-40. I also think leading laps should be rewarded enough to entice people to REALLY fight for the lead, and not just the leader of the most laps, but maybe the top 3-5 leaders on a sliding scale., 10,6,3,2,1, or something like that, depending on the points scale. I have never been a fan of the 43-1 scale, because I feel it is too harsh on a poor finish compared to the Latford.
 
To further put into context how utterly stupid this format is, consider this: if Kurt Busch didn’t fluke into a win at Vegas with a 15th place car because of the NASCAR thunder 2003 aero package, Kyle Busch’s win at Texas would’ve put him into the championship 4. That’s right, Kyle in his worst season in 12 years, would be in the championship race with a shot to win the title. If Kyle ran out of fuel, Truex wins, and in either scenario, both Harvick AND Hamlin fail to advance. Think about that, far and away the two most dominant drivers all year both almost missed the championship race, but this format totally isn’t a gimmick!!!

And yes, before the defenders of this format point it out, Denny and Brad tied. But in this scenario there’s no doubt Penske would’ve had either logano or Blaney fall back to ensure Brad advances over Denny. Penske did the exact same thing in the IMSA race yesterday, making Dane Cameron give up the win with a minute to go to let his teammate Helio gain more championship points. I don’t see how any of this kind of malarkey is good for the sport, sounds very WWE
 
DaBiff1618 said:
To further put into context how utterly stupid this format is, consider this: if Kurt Busch didn’t fluke into a win at Vegas with a 15th place car because of the NASCAR thunder 2003 aero package, Kyle Busch’s win at Texas would’ve put him into the championship 4. That’s right, Kyle in his worst season in 12 years, would be in the championship race with a shot to win the title. If Kyle ran out of fuel, Truex wins, and in either scenario, both Harvick AND Hamlin fail to advance. Think about that, far and away the two most dominant drivers all year both almost missed the championship race, but this format totally isn’t a gimmick!!!
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Yeah the balance between entertainment and what is called racing is way out of whack and continues to get harder to swallow and I really don't think it is accomplishing anything. The average fan can't keep score during the year on the fly, the racing doesn't make sense, and the series championship has been fatally flawed and highly diminished in it's meaning. I guess if a person can ignore all that it's great, but for some of us it is getting harder and harder to stomach when it is so out of balance to any form of racing in history. The only saving grace for many is that after all of this mess, the most popular driver in the sport gets the opportunity to compete for the championship and that makes it all good.
 
Formerjackman said:
Yeah, we know, you're one of two people here that think that your opinion is the ONLY one that counts.
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Black pot calls kettle black.

Your tiresome droning need not include derogatory remarks about other forum members.
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah the balance between entertainment and what is called racing is way out of whack and continues to get harder to swallow and I really don't think it is accomplishing anything. The average fan can't keep score during the year on the fly, the racing doesn't make sense, and the series championship has been fatally flawed and highly diminished in it's meaning. I guess if a person can ignore all that it's great, but for some of us it is getting harder and harder to stomach when it is so out of balance to any form of racing in history. The only saving grace for many is that after all of this mess, the most popular driver in the sport gets the opportunity to compete for the championship and that makes it all good.
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The points system is pretty messed up and confusing. I think Bowman lead 43 laps and finished 5th at Texas but he didn't gain very many points because you are not passing cars when you are at the front of the pack.
 
Nitro Dude said:
The points system is pretty messed up and confusing. I think Bowman lead 43 laps and finished 5th at Texas but he lost points because you are not passing cars when you are at the front of the pack.
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Yeah I was like yesterday, how in the hell do you lose a 43 point lead? That used to be a full race ahead and then all of the flip flopping..how in the hell can anybody follow that and you have to wait until they tell you after the race how drivers did. It's useless. For years until this last "enhancement" a person could look at the scores and say so in so needs this many points to get ahead of the other one and be able to follow along while the race was going on. Now they have to clutter up the screen and the viewers have no idea how they are coming up with those scores..and of course the gerbils are going ape**** thru the whole race and it doesn't matter until the closing laps. This race was the only race I actually paid attention and tried to keep the sound on and it was brutal to listen to all that nonsense.
 
Ryan Newman won 8 races in 2003 and finished 6th in points... behind Mat Kenseth’s 1 Win Championship.

In 1996, Jeff Gordon won 10 races and lost the championship to Terry Labonte’s 2 Win Championship.

1994 - Rusty Wallace won 8 and finished 3rd.

1993 - Rusty won 10 and finished 2nd.

1985 - Bill Elliot won 11 and finished 2nd.

1984 - Waltrip won 7 and finished 5th.

I’m sure there’s more examples, but most of these drivers (in the coveted old points system) dominated the win column and couldn’t close on the Cup when they needed to. It’s not often, but just having a bunch more wins than other drivers doesn’t make anybody a shoe in for a championship contender. There were anomalies of drivers having great seasons only to watch a guy with much less season-long success win the championship.

Season championships are won and lost by having the points needed when there’s a deadline to have them by. It doesn’t matter if there’s multiple deadlines or cut-off races where points get cashed in. Everybody knew the path to the championship before the season started.

If the drivers are racing against each other’s bumpers, or against the air, or the rain, or the traffic... every driver in every race has the same obstacles to overcome and it’s the same with the points format.

If the 19 would have won Texas, he’d be in... but he didn’t. His season didn’t back him up enough to give him any more chances than that.

If the 4 would have got around the 22 at Kansas, not got the wall in Texas or passed 1 more car at Martinsville he’d be in... but he failed at all three of those chances granted by his great season. That was two more chances than the 19 got... that’s where the reward from all those wins are and the 4 team shot themselves in the foot with 2 of those three chances... that’s not NASCAR’s fault.

The 22 and the 9 put together seasons which positioned them to be in the right place at the right time and they didn’t fail in their opportunities, they capitalized.

The system isn’t to blame because Harvick is not the first “winningest” driver to **** the bed at the end of the season. It happened fairly often in the old points system as well. NASCAR just holds up a trophy and says,”This is what we’re racing for and how we’re going to race for it”... it’s up to the teams and drivers to be the guy on top when they need to be, and THAT is why we watch.
 
BomberJones said:
Ryan Newman won 8 races in 2003 and finished 6th in points... behind Mat Kenseth’s 1 Win Championship.

In 1996, Jeff Gordon won 10 races and lost the championship to Terry Labonte’s 2 Win Championship.

1994 - Rusty Wallace won 8 and finished 3rd.

1993 - Rusty won 10 and finished 2nd.

1985 - Bill Elliot won 11 and finished 2nd.

1984 - Waltrip won 7 and finished 5th.

I’m sure there’s more examples, but most of these drivers (in the coveted old points system) dominated the win column and couldn’t close on the Cup when they needed to. It’s not often, but just having a bunch more wins than other drivers doesn’t make anybody a shoe in for a championship contender. There were anomalies of drivers having great seasons only to watch a guy with much less season-long success win the championship.

Season championships are won and lost by having the points needed when there’s a deadline to have them by. It doesn’t matter if there’s multiple deadlines or cut-off races where points get cashed in. Everybody knew the path to the championship before the season started.

If the drivers are racing against each other’s bumpers, or against the air, or the rain, or the traffic... every driver in every race has the same obstacles to overcome and it’s the same with the points format.

If the 19 would have won Texas, he’d be in... but he didn’t. His season didn’t back him up enough to give him any more chances than that.

If the 4 would have got around the 22 at Kansas, not got the wall in Texas or passed 1 more car at Martinsville he’d be in... but he failed at all three of those chances granted by his great season. That was two more chances than the 19 got... that’s where the reward from all those wins are and the 4 team shot themselves in the foot with 2 of those three chances... that’s not NASCAR’s fault.

The 22 and the 9 put together seasons which positioned them to be in the right place at the right time and they didn’t fail in their opportunities, they capitalized.

The system isn’t to blame because Harvick is not the first “winningest” driver to **** the bed at the end of the season. It happened fairly often in the old points system as well. NASCAR just holds up a trophy and says,”This is what we’re racing for and how we’re going to race for it”... it’s up to the teams and drivers to be the guy on top when they need to be, and THAT is why we watch.
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this.
 
Nitro Dude said:
The race next week in phoenix could be a pretty historical and emotional day for HMS. It will be the last race for Jimmie Johnson, could be the final win for Jimmie Johnson, will be the last race for the number 88...and could be the first championship for Chase Elliott and the number 9 team.
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I am sure someone will want that number even though personally I could care less.
Just like I don't care someone is driving the number 3. I do think all 7 time championship numbers should get retired until someone gets 8.
 
BomberJones said:
Season championships are won and lost by having the points needed when there’s a deadline to have them by. It doesn’t matter if there’s multiple deadlines or cut-off races where points get cashed in. Everybody knew the path to the championship before the season started.

If the drivers are racing against each other’s bumpers, or against the air, or the rain, or the traffic... every driver in every race has the same obstacles to overcome and it’s the same with the points format.

If the 19 would have won Texas, he’d be in... but he didn’t. His season didn’t back him up enough to give him any more chances than that.
Click to expand...
BomberJones said:
Ryan Newman won 8 races in 2003 and finished 6th in points... behind Mat Kenseth’s 1 Win Championship.

In 1996, Jeff Gordon won 10 races and lost the championship to Terry Labonte’s 2 Win Championship.

1994 - Rusty Wallace won 8 and finished 3rd.

1993 - Rusty won 10 and finished 2nd.

1985 - Bill Elliot won 11 and finished 2nd.

1984 - Waltrip won 7 and finished 5th.

I’m sure there’s more examples, but most of these drivers (in the coveted old points system) dominated the win column and couldn’t close on the Cup when they needed to. It’s not often, but just having a bunch more wins than other drivers doesn’t make anybody a shoe in for a championship contender. There were anomalies of drivers having great seasons only to watch a guy with much less season-long success win the championship.

Season championships are won and lost by having the points needed when there’s a deadline to have them by. It doesn’t matter if there’s multiple deadlines or cut-off races where points get cashed in. Everybody knew the path to the championship before the season started.

If the drivers are racing against each other’s bumpers, or against the air, or the rain, or the traffic... every driver in every race has the same obstacles to overcome and it’s the same with the points format.

If the 19 would have won Texas, he’d be in... but he didn’t. His season didn’t back him up enough to give him any more chances than that.

If the 4 would have got around the 22 at Kansas, not got the wall in Texas or passed 1 more car at Martinsville he’d be in... but he failed at all three of those chances granted by his great season. That was two more chances than the 19 got... that’s where the reward from all those wins are and the 4 team shot themselves in the foot with 2 of those three chances... that’s not NASCAR’s fault.

The 22 and the 9 put together seasons which positioned them to be in the right place at the right time and they didn’t fail in their opportunities, they capitalized.

The system isn’t to blame because Harvick is not the first “winningest” driver to **** the bed at the end of the season. It happened fairly often in the old points system as well. NASCAR just holds up a trophy and says,”This is what we’re racing for and how we’re going to race for it”... it’s up to the teams and drivers to be the guy on top when they need to be, and THAT is why we watch.
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Missing one large point...those race championships were decided on points that included wins. This one isn't.
 
Again, this is no worse than letting a teammate in line after a restart. Non-issue. (Did I really just defend JGR? What is happening to me?....)
 
I cannot figure out all the point stuff but if Jones did pass what would it change
 
aunty dive said:
Black pot calls kettle black.

Your tiresome droning need not include derogatory remarks about other forum members.
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Are you REALLY that out of touch? I have never made a derogatory remark about ANYONE on this forum (except maybe the moderators a couple of times). I am here for discussion and the free exchange of opinions and love to hear what people think, even if I think they are dead wrong. That is just an opportunity to persuade in my view. I have been around here for a little over three years now, and there there are only TWO people that I have ever had a problem with, and all I have EVER done was try to defend myself from snarky mean spirited attacks. I've been called a racist, I've been called tiresome, I've had my work in racing denigrated, I've been called fat, I've been made fun of for wearing a plain uniform and God knows what else for WHAT REASON? Because my world view, and my view of the sport is different than yours? At this point, the only reason I actually stick around this forum, in spite of the dozens of GREAT people here is because I refuse to concede to the two of you. I honestly don't know what the hell your problem is. You took out after me almost from day one and have never let up. I even went out of my way and try to be nice and engage you in some conversation concerning one of your areas of supposed expertise, and all I have gotten is this kind of crap. If you have a point, make it. If not, then do us all a favor and shut your pie hole.
 
StandOnIt said:
There it is...now what?
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It is in violation of the "100% rule":
www.espn.com

New NASCAR rule: Race at '100 percent'

NASCAR imposed a series of rules that could serve to allay the concerns of its fan base and sponsors, or at least curtail a seemingly endless spate of negative publicity entering the playoffs.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

However, the final 4 has been set. So, do NASCAR go about it or do they let it slide? I do not envy anyone right now in the front office, sheesh. The evidence is there in the article, but I personally do not think JGR should be penalized.
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
Again, this is no worse than letting a teammate in line after a restart. Non-issue. (Did I really just defend JGR? What is happening to me?....)
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one could say that it smacks of a certain poison ivy incident. But some of us have yet another chapter in the continuing saga of the cheatin Yotas. :biggrin: a bad look. Jones had been jamming it up there lately and getting finishes better than his team mates. Guess it didn't matter for him he already has a job next year. Glad he got out of the nuthouse, hope he gives the 43 a good ride.
 
I have no idea how to handle that if you're NASCAR. Part of me wants a 0 tolerance policy regarding the NASCAR 06 Total Team Control tactics but this isn't as egregious as the arm itch. :idunno:
 
Kiante said:
Uh-oh:


Should be an non-issue, honestly. It's to be expected, but it all depends on how NASCAR goes about this.
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With this breaking news, NASCAR has made the decision to insert Jeff Gordon as the 5th driver racing for a championship at Phoenix.
 
Formerjackman said:
Are you REALLY that out of touch? I have never made a derogatory remark about ANYONE on this forum (except maybe the moderators a couple of times). I am here for discussion and the free exchange of opinions and love to hear what people think, even if I think they are dead wrong. That is just an opportunity to persuade in my view. I have been around here for a little over three years now, and there there are only TWO people that I have ever had a problem with, and all I have EVER done was try to defend myself from snarky mean spirited attacks. I've been called a racist, I've been called tiresome, I've had my work in racing denigrated, I've been called fat, I've been made fun of for wearing a plain uniform and God knows what else for WHAT REASON? Because my world view, and my view of the sport is different than yours? At this point, the only reason I actually stick around this forum, in spite of the dozens of GREAT people here is because I refuse to concede to the two of you. I honestly don't know what the hell your problem is. You took out after me almost from day one and have never let up. I even went out of my way and try to be nice and engage you in some conversation concerning one of your areas of supposed expertise, and all I have gotten is this kind of crap. If you have a point, make it. If not, then do us all a favor and shut your pie hole.
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Please stop playing the victim.

I refer to your POSTS as tiresome. None of the rest of that garbage up there is attributable to me.
 
donthaveanickname said:
I would be extemely surprised if there was any penalty (except maybe a fine)
JGR could argue they just wanted to tell Jones to save the tires.
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Save the tires with less than 20 to go?

That's not a good argument, but there is no reason to throw the book at them in this case. Big difference to Bowyer causing a caution to help Truex.
 
Kiante said:
It is in violation of the "100% rule":
www.espn.com

New NASCAR rule: Race at '100 percent'

NASCAR imposed a series of rules that could serve to allay the concerns of its fan base and sponsors, or at least curtail a seemingly endless spate of negative publicity entering the playoffs.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

However, the final 4 has been set. So, do NASCAR go about it or do they let it slide? I do not envy anyone right now in the front office, sheesh. The evidence is there in the article, but I personally do not think JGR should be penalized.
Click to expand...

When it comes to selective rule enforcement, NASCAR is the leader in the industry. I fully expect nothing will come about. It’s like the yellow line rule. Flip a coin to determine the outcome.
 
Can’t find the link right now but heard nascar is looking into Hamlin radio communications
 
BomberJones said:
Ryan Newman won 8 races in 2003 and finished 6th in points... behind Mat Kenseth’s 1 Win Championship.

In 1996, Jeff Gordon won 10 races and lost the championship to Terry Labonte’s 2 Win Championship.

1994 - Rusty Wallace won 8 and finished 3rd.

1993 - Rusty won 10 and finished 2nd.

1985 - Bill Elliot won 11 and finished 2nd.

1984 - Waltrip won 7 and finished 5th.

I’m sure there’s more examples, but most of these drivers (in the coveted old points system) dominated the win column and couldn’t close on the Cup when they needed to. It’s not often, but just having a bunch more wins than other drivers doesn’t make anybody a shoe in for a championship contender. There were anomalies of drivers having great seasons only to watch a guy with much less season-long success win the championship.

Season championships are won and lost by having the points needed when there’s a deadline to have them by. It doesn’t matter if there’s multiple deadlines or cut-off races where points get cashed in. Everybody knew the path to the championship before the season started.

If the drivers are racing against each other’s bumpers, or against the air, or the rain, or the traffic... every driver in every race has the same obstacles to overcome and it’s the same with the points format.

If the 19 would have won Texas, he’d be in... but he didn’t. His season didn’t back him up enough to give him any more chances than that.

If the 4 would have got around the 22 at Kansas, not got the wall in Texas or passed 1 more car at Martinsville he’d be in... but he failed at all three of those chances granted by his great season. That was two more chances than the 19 got... that’s where the reward from all those wins are and the 4 team shot themselves in the foot with 2 of those three chances... that’s not NASCAR’s fault.

The 22 and the 9 put together seasons which positioned them to be in the right place at the right time and they didn’t fail in their opportunities, they capitalized.

The system isn’t to blame because Harvick is not the first “winningest” driver to **** the bed at the end of the season. It happened fairly often in the old points system as well. NASCAR just holds up a trophy and saysp,”This is what we’re racing for and how we’re going to race for it”... it’s up to the teams and drivers to be the guy on top when they need to be, and THAT is why we watch.
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Newman also had 7 DNF’s that season as which in that system canceled out his wins points wise. Kenseth that year had 11 top 5’s with 25 top 10’s with only two DNF’s. His overall body of work was better than Newman’s who had more Top 5’a but less top 10’s but Newman led more laps....Kenseth got him on the average finish which was 3 places higher 10.3-13.6 and also the total laps completed. I feel like Newman that year was the definition of bring it home if it was top 5 but break if it wasn’t. The 17 team’s consistency that year was pretty awesome to watch in my view. I guess my point is we can point out the flaws or loopholes in any points system because everyone’s opinion is different, is there a fail proof way to crown a champion in racing? I’m starting to think it lies in the eye of the beholder, you’re always going to have someone unhappy
 
Kiante said:
It is in violation of the "100% rule":
www.espn.com

New NASCAR rule: Race at '100 percent'

NASCAR imposed a series of rules that could serve to allay the concerns of its fan base and sponsors, or at least curtail a seemingly endless spate of negative publicity entering the playoffs.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

However, the final 4 has been set. So, do NASCAR go about it or do they let it slide? I do not envy anyone right now in the front office, sheesh. The evidence is there in the article, but I personally do not think JGR should be penalized.
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I do certainly after what Nascar did to MWR for the same thing.
JGR should be paying a fine at least equal to or more than MWR because they had a complete understanding of what a violation could cost. Leave the final 4 as is and fine them at least $500,000.00 dollars to be paid before any of their cars can race again.
 
Team Penske said:
BTW, Harvick did give 100% effort to make the chase, just missed that point he could have got had he nailed Kyle a little better.
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Yeah if he had been able to get just a little farther up on Kyle he could have pulled of the classic nothing personal Newman/Larson in the side pocket move.
 
Team Penske said:
I do certainly after what Nascar did to MWR for the same thing.
JGR should be paying a fine at least equal to or more than MWR because they had a complete understanding of what a violation could cost. Leave the final 4 as is and fine them at least $500,000.00 dollars to be paid before any of their cars can race again.
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That's cheap. Nascar should up the fine, call it the Barney V effect, just because.
 
Team Penske said:
I do certainly after what Nascar did to MWR for the same thing.
JGR should be paying a fine at least equal to or more than MWR because they had a complete understanding of what a violation could cost. Leave the final 4 as is and fine them at least $500,000.00 dollars to be paid before any of their cars can race again.
Click to expand...
Intentionally spinning to cause a race altering caution is not the same as telling someone to NOT pass a teammate. Where does this slippery slope end? Do we then have to penalize every driver that drafts with a teammate at plate tracks (or intermediates with the 550 package) instead of pulling out to pass? I get the "optics" are bad, but come on. Comparing this to the MWR fallout is apples and oranges. Gosh I feel absolutely dirty defending JGR...
 
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