Cup RACE thread --- Sonoma

AndyMarquisLive said:
Not uncommon in NASCAR for a guy to have a few years of being Superman on road courses, and then things level off again.

Watkins Glen and Sonoma were my favorite tracks in the mid-90s because they were borderline-guaranteed Mark Martin victories.
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Very true but I think for Chase it's more synonymous with the new car overall and RC's just reflect it a little more because he so dominant in them for a while. Chase had such a good feel for the last gen car. Watching him blast through the pack on the Roval after hitting the wall that year was one of my favorite memories in racing. It looked like a video game really. I remember him blasting by Harvick and Truex near the end in places you don't normally pass. Everything changes though and Chase is just not as comfortable in this car and the minor run-in with Blaney showed it some yesterday. He's just not as aggressive as he used to be. Thought I was seeing it some at COTA but then he slid off and got the penalty. All in all though, Chase still does really well on RC's and seems to be getting better with this car but still a little behind the 5 and the 11. It can't be all gloom and doom when you have a win and a bunch of top-5's and the best average finish this year and are second in points. In the old classic points format Chase would be 112 pints up on everyone.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Gotta disagree there. Chase waited a little longer to pit and his lap times were at times faster some laps- then other times not. Larson did a better job of getting through traffic after the pit stop. Larson was faster and probably beats Chase regardless but to say he was "not nearly" as fast is an exaggeration. Key moment in the race for Chase was a restart where he beat Larson then started battling with Blaney and they got a little tangled up and cost Chase the spot with Larson. If Chase had been able to get by Blaney there I think he and Larson battle for the win but either way, it was good day. Always a take a top 5.
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I don't think Chase passed anybody on equal tires all day. Larson drove up from 10th on the start and went right by Chase, while he faded to 7th. His car was decent, but not 5 car good. It's also true that Sonoma has never been his best road course, even in the old car, but I think it's also true that each time the technology has evolved on road course cars it takes away some of the advantage that the more gifted drivers have. I would LOVE to put these guys in the early 80's Cup cars with a good old fashioned T10 four speeds and so-so brakes and see just how good these guys REALLY are. I doubt Jeff Gordon wins nine road course races if he had to drive the 80's cars. The same thing has happened in sportscar racing. Paddle shifters, antilock brakes and traction control has allowed marginal amateur drivers to be nearly as fast as the pro's. I don't really like that.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
I keep hearing this, but he's got the best average finish in next gen on RCs, and has had a few wins flat out stolen from him. So I guess once he does get one we can get back to calling him the best?
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Best of the current drivers, maybe, but probably behind Gordon and Stewart. Let's remember that until relatively recently, the Cup schedule only included two twisties per season. It's easier to notch wins when there are four or more per year, and more opportunities and incentive to improve your skills.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Best of the current drivers, maybe, but probably behind Gordon and Stewart. Let's remember that until relatively recently, the Cup schedule only included two twisties per season. It's easier to notch wins when there are four or more per year, and more opportunities and incentive to improve your skills.
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Would argue exactly the opposite. Marcos Ambrose was taking crap equipment and beating everyone with it because back when there were only 2 road courses, a handful of drivers were good and the rest treated it like an off week. Now, everyone is good at it. You see many different winners on road courses because of that. It’s harder to win them when everyone takes them seriously.
 
Efisher131 said:
I think Larson is in that picture as well with 5 road course wins and you could make a case for McDowell too. Even when Front Row was significantly less strong he was top 10 on road courses.
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Yea, you're incredibly right and I am embarrassed as a Larson fan to forget in that moment he has 5 roadies of his own. Definitely in the team picture.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
I keep hearing this, but he's got the best average finish in next gen on RCs, and has had a few wins flat out stolen from him. So I guess once he does get one we can get back to calling him the best?
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I still think hes one of the best today, these types of things are cyclical. I'd still feel pretty good Chase Elliott as my team's road course ace if I owned a team, we still have a few more to visit this year. I'd put money on him winning one of them.
 
Formerjackman said:
Chase was on the same strategy, and his car wasn't nearly as fast as the 5. I think to call it a tire strategy win is over-simplifying it. Basically it was up to Cliff to not take him OUT of contention.
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He definitely had the fastest car. All I meant, really, was that the tire strategy is what allowed him to take advantage of that speed. Had he pitted early, he probably finishes around where Ross did
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Chase Elliott hasn't won a road course race in the NextGen car.
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I think Chase has an edge on road courses...but he's even attested to he and Alan finding *something* on those tracks. Cliff Daniels said the same thing, and they they drew from them.

Elliott and Larson dominated road courses is 2021, winning 5 races between them, I believe. HMS had something.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
I keep hearing this, but he's got the best average finish in next gen on RCs, and has had a few wins flat out stolen from him. So I guess once he does get one we can get back to calling him the best?
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He's still arguably the best on road courses, but the advantages HMS found, build around Alan and Chase during the gen 6 era haven't translated to the gen 7 car. 5 car was lights out on road courses too in 2021, albiet not QUITE as fast overall (despite being faster at Sonoma, and Indy). This is pretty indicative of HMS having something special.

I still think Elliott is arguably the best on RC, I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that his real advantage were magnified by whatever HMS figured out.
 
Efisher131 said:
Would argue exactly the opposite. Marcos Ambrose was taking crap equipment and beating everyone with it because back when there were only 2 road courses, a handful of drivers were good and the rest treated it like an off week. Now, everyone is good at it. You see many different winners on road courses because of that. It’s harder to win them when everyone takes them seriously.
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Agreed.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Even if you calculated only through 2007 for Gordon and through 2016 for Jimmie, Larson’s winning clip with HMS would still be trending higher.

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That's ridiculous. To be in the same category, or in this case ahead, of two of the all-time greats is definitely something.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Sorry, I got confused. Would you argue that Chase is indeed the best road racer ever, ahead of Gordon and Stewart; or that road course wins are easier to achieve since there's more of them? (Or both?)

Thanks!
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Road course wins are harder now is what I’m arguing. Because everyone is so good at them.
 
JJ_14 said:
That's ridiculous. To be in the same category, or in this case ahead, of two of the all-time greats is definitely something.
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It is quite an accomplishment but a very small sample size to some. Not sure he can keep this pace up for the long-term like JJ and JG. Honestly what jumped out to me more was Tim Richmond's numbers. What could have been.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
I still think hes one of the best today, these types of things are cyclical. I'd still feel pretty good Chase Elliott as my team's road course ace if I owned a team, we still have a few more to visit this year. I'd put money on him winning one of them.
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The Glen and/or Roval. He’s had at least 3 of the last 4 there all but won and had them painfully taken from him. One by a teammate dumping him, two by terrible cautions.
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
The Glen and/or Roval. He’s had at least 3 of the last 4 there all but won and had them painfully taken from him. One by a teammate dumping him, two by terrible cautions.
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Genuinely don't remember last the last two roval races at all
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
It is quite an accomplishment but a very small sample size to some. Not sure he can keep this pace up for the long-term like JJ and JG. Honestly what jumped out to me more was Tim Richmond's numbers. What could have been.
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4 year stretch is more telling imo, peak vs peak, if you will.

Larson has 20 wins (and counting) in 4 years.

Just for comparison's sake, Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick won 23 races during their best 4 year stretch, Truex, 24.

Johnson won 30. Gordon won 30 lolol

We don't know if Larson is peaking yet, or if this is just the start. Still super impressive though. This 4 year stretch is trending as good as anyone's post-Johnson
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
It is quite an accomplishment but a very small sample size to some. Not sure he can keep this pace up for the long-term like JJ and JG. Honestly what jumped out to me more was Tim Richmond's numbers. What could have been.
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Tim Richmond is a top 5 all time talent in NASCAR and maybe even the world. If he had been able to race through the late 80s and all of the 90s Dale has a title or two less.
 
Any Blaney fans here? I felt your pain yesterday. I jumped onboard with Truex just before he ran out.
 
jaqua19 said:
4 year stretch is more telling imo, peak vs peak, if you will.

Larson has 20 wins (and counting) in 4 years.

Just for comparison's sake, Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick won 23 races during their best 4 year stretch, Truex, 24.

Johnson won 30. Gordon won 30 lolol

We don't know if Larson is peaking yet, or if this is just the start. Still super impressive though. This 4 year stretch is trending as good as anyone's post-Johnson
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Typo here. Gordon won 40
 
Efisher131 said:
Tim Richmond is a top 5 all time talent in NASCAR and maybe even the world. If he had been able to race through the late 80s and all of the 90s Dale has a title or two less.
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I didn't start watching NASCAR until 89 so I didn't get to see him but I used to work with a big Earnhardt fan who would openly admit straight up that if Richmond raced a full healthy career Earnhardt would not have 7 titles.
 
Efisher131 said:
Tim Richmond is a top 5 all time talent in NASCAR and maybe even the world. If he had been able to race through the late 80s and all of the 90s Dale has a title or two less.
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I can say the same too about Davey Allison, things would obviously have been different if he raced out the rest of the 90’s into the mid 2000’s
 
Efisher131 said:
Tim Richmond is a top 5 all time talent in NASCAR and maybe even the world. If he had been able to race through the late 80s and all of the 90s Dale has a title or two less.
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I was a big Richmond fan, but in my opinion, the sample size is far too small to draw too many conclusions. Half of his career wins came over about a three month span. I would also question if during that time frame HMS was really READY to win a title. I would say much the same about Davey Allison. His one GREAT season was his last full one, and 1993 was shaping up as a disappointing one. Hard to say where that was going to lead. With Alan Kulwicki, I would counter that the business model he chose was rapidly losing its luster. I seriously doubt the one car, owner/driver deal was going to work much longer. See Geoff Bodine and Ricky Rudd. I don't believe after 1994 a single car team ever won another title. Also, not to take anything away from Alan, but it took the absolute collapse of the 11 and 28 teams for him to win his title, and 1992 was a strange year when some perennial contenders had terrible years.
 
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