Edwards to Joe Gibbs Racing, Suarez?

FLRacingFan said:
Yeah, already closed up the Nationwide program and seem to run almost exclusively ToyotaCare sponsorship like RFR with EcoBoost.
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Rumor has it that Toyota Care maybe sponsoring one of the Gibbs Cup cars, possibly Carl, so that is probably one sponsorship KBM is losing.
 
Jeffrey00 said:
I just figured it out. JGR is buying KBM. They say the announcement affects 4 nascar racing series. Well JGR doesn't technically have a Truck team, other than the equipment they provide KBM. So possibly announcing the Carl deal, Suarez and Bubba to NWS, buy KBM, and something to do with a lower series.
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Interesting take. Toyota practically funds everything at KBM anyway. Would be a graceful exit. Erik Jones in the Truck? Hmmm.
 
Jeffrey00 said:
Same reason Harvick sold to RCR. Takes time and resources to run those teams. Kyle might want to focus on a Cup title. Also it is no secret KBM, while being a successful truck effort has struggled with sponsorship through the years.
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100% yes on all of that. Informed insightful post. Well done.
 
ToyYoda said:
I think they did as well with the in house stuff as they have with the TRD stuff. Kyle and Denny both had 8-win seasons with the in house engines. Wouldn't hurt my feelings any (apologies @Revman ).
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Wouldn't bother me man. The original idea was to support Gibbs so that JGR could become to Toyota what Roush is to Ford. JGR approached TRD with the idea currently in place. TRD obliged because JGR is the meal ticket. JGR has a good deal. TRD is stuck between a rock and a hard spot. The engine design is the oldest of the three, and with the reduction of horsepower on the way, it doesn't make sense to design a new one around parameters that will be around for a year or so before the reduced displacement solution is put into effect. I'd be okay with going back.
 
Revman said:
Wouldn't bother me man. The original idea was to support Gibbs so that JGR could become to Toyota what Roush is to Ford. JGR approached TRD with the idea currently in place. TRD obliged because JGR is the meal ticket. JGR has a good deal. TRD is stuck between a rock and a hard spot. The engine design is the oldest of the three, and with the reduction of horsepower on the way, it doesn't make sense to design a new one around parameters that will be around for a year or so before the reduced displacement solution is put into effect. I'd be okay with going back.
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Sounds like TRD got caught with their pants down. They have the oldest design with an obvious lack of horsepower at this point, but it doesn't make sense to make a new design yet due to incoming changes. Perhaps that lack of foresight is contributing to their current lack of success?

Personally I think it's time for JGR to make a change. They built them in house and it didn't work, now getting them from TRD isint working either. They had more success when they were building in house. Is there any evidence to suggest that the Toyota engines will ever be able to give them an advantage?
 
3wideinturn1 said:
Sounds like TRD got caught with their pants down. They have the oldest design with an obvious lack of horsepower at this point, but it doesn't make sense to make a new design yet due to incoming changes. Perhaps that lack of foresight is contributing to their current lack of success?

Personally I think it's time for JGR to make a change. They built them in house and it didn't work, now getting them from TRD isint working either. They had more success when they were building in house. Is there any evidence to suggest that the Toyota engines will ever be able to give them an advantage?
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Fair points, honestly, but this sport is cyclical. Just last year, Toyota had the most Cup wins in its history. Couple the issues this year with Hendrick's gains, and the horsepower gap is significant obviously. TRD needs to respond to narrow (not close--that would be unreasonable) the gap to get its Chasers relevant. Vickers had the new spec motor, and there was improvement. No excuses, but foresight would have involved understanding the significance of the Hendrick gains. The TRD problems are as much their own as they are what Hendrick has accomplished which is significant.

JGR came to Toyota because they were a lower feeder in the Chevy food chain. They wanted to be top dog with Hendrick. This was a different time than now. Now, we have "satellite" teams which indeed have the identical equipment to the mothership. They went to Toyota to get exclusive treatment. They got it. Then, once MWR improved they became willing to share under the TRD/Toyota banner. The question becomes....Do they need now what they wanted then? If he answer is, "No," then will Chevy have them back? Futhermore, would Hendrick power them? Do they want ECR's? Ford? Don't think that will happen given that Ford has given Carl the send off.

I do not think that JGR should go away from Toyota. Toyota power has positioned JGR to win the Championship at least three times in their time together. The opportunity was lost not due to Toyota or TRD but by the teams. TRD's relationship with JGR is much deeper than they are going to get elsewhere. It extends to chassis engineering, etc. in addition to the motor program. They will not get that level of attention anywhere else. All a builder (TRD is much more than that) can do is put its teams in a position to win, and TRD has done that (not at the moment, however, but let the year play out). The teams must execute. There is no question that TRD takes an abnormal amount of **** because its relationship with JGR is unique. The drivers take big swings at the engine builders because they are all the way in Costa Mesa--not somebody you will have to face at the lunch table. JGR was divided in its decision to go to TRD--this is fact. I suggest that many never got over it. That's fine. Go back to building with TRD support, but they need to remember why they came to TRD for help in the first place. My suggestion would be to keep the course. My second suggestion would be for JGR to take the motor in house. Again, leaving Toyota would be a mistake that I don't think they will make.
 
The bad thing is, the Toyotas seem to have regressed as the season has worn on. Kenseth was leading the points in the not-too-distant past, now he's sitting 5th, 107 points out of the lead. Kyle, Denny, and Vickers have all fallen well out of the top-10 in points after all being there earlier in the season. Bowyer is the only one who seems to be running better as the season progresses.
 
ToyYoda said:
The bad thing is, the Toyotas seem to have regressed as the season has worn on. Kenseth was leading the points in the not-too-distant past, now he's sitting 5th, 107 points out of the lead. Kyle, Denny, and Vickers have all fallen well out of the top-10 in points after all being there earlier in the season. Bowyer is the only one who seems to be running better as the season progresses.
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4 months? He hasnt lead the points since Richmond, correct?
 
Revman said:
Fair points, honestly, but this sport is cyclical. Just last year, Toyota had the most Cup wins in its history. Couple the issues this year with Hendrick's gains, and the horsepower gap is significant obviously. TRD needs to respond to narrow (not close--that would be unreasonable) the gap to get its Chasers relevant. Vickers had the new spec motor, and there was improvement. No excuses, but foresight would have involved understanding the significance of the Hendrick gains. The TRD problems are as much their own as they are what Hendrick has accomplished which is significant.

JGR came to Toyota because they were a lower feeder in the Chevy food chain. They wanted to be top dog with Hendrick. This was a different time than now. Now, we have "satellite" teams which indeed have the identical equipment to the mothership. They went to Toyota to get exclusive treatment. They got it. Then, once MWR improved they became willing to share under the TRD/Toyota banner. The question becomes....Do they need now what they wanted then? If he answer is, "No," then will Chevy have them back? Futhermore, would Hendrick power them? Do they want ECR's? Ford? Don't think that will happen given that Ford has given Carl the send off.

I do not think that JGR should go away from Toyota. Toyota power has positioned JGR to win the Championship at least three times in their time together. The opportunity was lost not due to Toyota or TRD but by the teams. TRD's relationship with JGR is much deeper than they are going to get elsewhere. It extends to chassis engineering, etc. in addition to the motor program. They will not get that level of attention anywhere else. All a builder (TRD is much more than that) can do is put its teams in a position to win, and TRD has done that (not at the moment, however, but let the year play out). The teams must execute. There is no question that TRD takes an abnormal amount of **** because its relationship with JGR is unique. The drivers take big swings at the engine builders because they are all the way in Costa Mesa--not somebody you will have to face at the lunch table. JGR was divided in its decision to go to TRD--this is fact. I suggest that many never got over it. That's fine. Go back to building with TRD support, but they need to remember why they came to TRD for help in the first place. My suggestion would be to keep the course. My second suggestion would be for JGR to take the motor in house. Again, leaving Toyota would be a mistake that I don't think they will make.
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Thanks for the insight Rev, I always appreciate hearing your point of view. My question is this, has it gotten to the point where JGR has lost faith in TRD? Obviously the drivers have had their say, but are the team officials still happy with where they're going with TRD? I mean even when they were winning all those races last year, from my vantage point it seemed as though they were getting it done on superior handling as opposed to an outright HP advantage. The sport is definitely cyclical but will Toyota/TRD ever be able to establish a HP advantage for its teams? Or will JGR or whoever run TRD have to get it done on the handling side of things and simply settle for 2nd or 3rd best engines?
 
ToyYoda said:
The bad thing is, the Toyotas seem to have regressed as the season has worn on. Kenseth was leading the points in the not-too-distant past, now he's sitting 5th, 107 points out of the lead. Kyle, Denny, and Vickers have all fallen well out of the top-10 in points after all being there earlier in the season. Bowyer is the only one who seems to be running better as the season progresses.
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Spot on....but why? This isn't all about motor. Not even close. JGR was lost until New Hampshire with the 0 Ride Height. Late to the party, and chasing their asses ever since. Jeff Gordon's success is as much about the new rules as it is about attending self-improvement weekends, Dad seminars, and trips to Africa. This car does not suit any of the current drivers in the JGR line up. It does suit Jeff Gordon very nicely. Back to point.....Hendrick et al. kept developing and getting faster while JGR maintained for whatever reason. Throw in a horsepower issue, and you have a huge gap. Not sure they regressed, but if you aren't moving forward, you are moving backward. The big guns moved forward. JGR didn't.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
Thanks for the insight Rev, I always appreciate hearing your point of view. My question is this, has it gotten to the point where JGR has lost faith in TRD? Obviously the drivers have had their say, but are the team officials still happy with where they're going with TRD? I mean even when they were winning all those races last year, from my vantage point it seemed as though they were getting it done on superior handling as opposed to an outright HP advantage. The sport is definitely cyclical but will Toyota/TRD ever be able to establish a HP advantage for its teams? Or will JGR or whoever run TRD have to get it done on the handling side of things and simply settle for 2nd or 3rd best engines?
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Thanks man. The question about JGR's faith in TRD will be answered tomorrow. If they keep the course, then nothing has changed. I don't know if you will ever get those old school JGR holdouts, but Coach wouldn't have made then change unless he felt that this element was manageable. I think JGR management knows that they are getting a hell of a deal with TRD resources. I believe that they are happy with the level of commitment and service, but YOU HAVE TO WIN! As I mentioned, TRD/Toyota has put them in that position before, and this is not lost on Coach IMO. I think last year they had the power--maybe an advantage, but the reliability suffered. The Chase spec motor was very good, and I think that TRD felt that it would be a sound basis for this year. Wasn't. It would only be fair to judge TRD after a redesign. At that point, we would know what they are capable of. IMO, they would prove that they could compete--I am obviously biased. The other thing to think about is that they have submitted the new Camry to NASCAR. It has been rejected once--good news--shows that they are pushing it. I believe that next year will be much, much better with a reduction in horsepower--if they get that. I believe that a new engine is a couple of years away for everybody. TRD will be fine. They have learned a lot in 10 years.
 
BobbyFord said:
I'm wondering where the "unprecedented" part fits in...
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Teams like to overhype their own announcements, but if it includes both Bubba and Suarez I think one team having two Drive for Diversity drivers competing in national series would be unprecedented.
 
Revman said:
Fair points, honestly, but this sport is cyclical. Just last year, Toyota had the most Cup wins in its history. Couple the issues this year with Hendrick's gains, and the horsepower gap is significant obviously. TRD needs to respond to narrow (not close--that would be unreasonable) the gap to get its Chasers relevant. Vickers had the new spec motor, and there was improvement. No excuses, but foresight would have involved understanding the significance of the Hendrick gains. The TRD problems are as much their own as they are what Hendrick has accomplished which is significant.

JGR came to Toyota because they were a lower feeder in the Chevy food chain. They wanted to be top dog with Hendrick. This was a different time than now. Now, we have "satellite" teams which indeed have the identical equipment to the mothership. They went to Toyota to get exclusive treatment. They got it. Then, once MWR improved they became willing to share under the TRD/Toyota banner. The question becomes....Do they need now what they wanted then? If he answer is, "No," then will Chevy have them back? Futhermore, would Hendrick power them? Do they want ECR's? Ford? Don't think that will happen given that Ford has given Carl the send off.

I do not think that JGR should go away from Toyota. Toyota power has positioned JGR to win the Championship at least three times in their time together. The opportunity was lost not due to Toyota or TRD but by the teams. TRD's relationship with JGR is much deeper than they are going to get elsewhere. It extends to chassis engineering, etc. in addition to the motor program. They will not get that level of attention anywhere else. All a builder (TRD is much more than that) can do is put its teams in a position to win, and TRD has done that (not at the moment, however, but let the year play out). The teams must execute. There is no question that TRD takes an abnormal amount of **** because its relationship with JGR is unique. The drivers take big swings at the engine builders because they are all the way in Costa Mesa--not somebody you will have to face at the lunch table. JGR was divided in its decision to go to TRD--this is fact. I suggest that many never got over it. That's fine. Go back to building with TRD support, but they need to remember why they came to TRD for help in the first place. My suggestion would be to keep the course. My second suggestion would be for JGR to take the motor in house. Again, leaving Toyota would be a mistake that I don't think they will make.
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I don't see JGR switch Manu's this far out in the game. If they did, I think they would just start their in house program back up. They still have Mark Conquist on the payroll, so I don't think it would be too difficult. I honestly would see JGR signing with Dodge before they went back to Chevy.
 
If Gibbs went back to Chevy this would be my dream scenario.

Announce move to Chevy
Strike deal with Childress and Theresa Earnhardt.
Buy Theresa out of ECR Engines
Form GCR Engines or CGR Engines

Richard already has the foundation set for a great engine shop, and Gibbs has talented people like Mark Conquist. This would be a win/win for both Gibbs and Childress and would put them in a spot where they could compete with HMS.
 
Jeffrey00 said:
If Gibbs went back to Chevy this would be my dream scenario.

Announce move to Chevy
Strike deal with Childress and Theresa Earnhardt.
Buy Theresa out of ECR Engines
Form GCR Engines or CGR Engines

Richard already has the foundation set for a great engine shop, and Gibbs has talented people like Mark Conquist. This would be a win/win for both Gibbs and Childress and would put them in a spot where they could compete with HMS.
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No.
 
Jim Utter is reporting Carl will drive the #19 for JGR next year. Arris will sponsor for about half the year.
 
Jeffrey00 said:
Well if it does have to do with Engines, maybe they will take over TRD's engine program fully. Be the Roush/Yates of Toyota? That would be unprecedented for sure. Gibbs/Conquist Engines?
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That was the original idea when the TRD/JGR relationship started. Wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.
 
No way are they going to switch to Chevy. Chevy is already over-saturated with teams and their engineering support is spread very thin.
 
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