Gen6. Some more thoughts?

dpkimmel2001

dpkimmel2001

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I know everyone's been having a great time trashing the new car and all, which I still don't get. I mean after all, we've only seen a couple of races in it until today's race.

Daytona, IMO, was lackluster due to the drivers and not the car. When it came time to run they did. That was drivers choice. You don't think so? Go back and watch the end of that race again.

Phoenix was kinda funny. I read the Rate the Race thread after that race and most everyone seemed to like it. A day or two later all of the sudden everyone trashing the new car. I have to admit that I found that a little odd. Probably the Denny Hamlin factor. Who knows?

So then we have today's race. There seems to be a mixed bag of reviews on that race too. Some for and some not so much. Here's a cool stat that I just tabulated. The race today had 2,342 green flag passes for position. The same race last year had 1,301. More than a thousand more green flag passes with this Gen6 car over last years model. I thought that was interesting and it could be just a fluke. Or, maybe they are starting to understand the car a little more. I listened to several drivers on the scanner today hearing many cry about how loose they were. I think it's pretty cool that the drivers complain like that. This shouldn't be easy. Normally, when the drivers are happy we don't have good racing. I liked the race today hope to see more like it on these 1.5ers. It sucks that they make up the majority of the schedule but maybe, just maybe, things are going to improve?
 
It's too early to say. I think the track conditions changed a lot and it surprised some good teams...not ready to blame the car just yet.
 
During the race and immediately after today's race I was pretty bummed about the cars performance.. I think that's partly due to poor performances by cars I wanted to see do well. In retrospect I feel like it was a decent race.. Not great but decent at least. There's obviously still alot of work to do with this car but for it's first showing at a 1.5 miler.. Not bad.
 
In a race with so many green flag passes one would expect the fastest car of the race(Kasey) be able to catch and PASS the leader of the race (Kenseth) for the WIN?Within 10 laps?Seems he could catch him but not PASS him?Geee I wonder why????
 
I love the looks of the new car. But the not being able to pass the leader has me concerned. I also believe the green flag passes being higher is due to less yellows and passing under green flag pitstops. The racing seams to be more follow the leader than anything. If they don't resolve the issues fast attendance is only going to suffer more. I myself am questioning weather I want to go to Dega or just stay home and watch. It also seams to me they are ignoring any problem with the car and the mainstream media also appears to be ignoring it as well.
 
Nascar needs to listen to constructive critisim(correct my spelling). Like any other new cars in the past it will take a little time.
I also believe they need to loosen up the rule book just a little and let these teams make improvements that fit a drivers style.
I really don't want to see IROC racing.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I know everyone's been having a great time trashing the new car and all, which I still don't get. I mean after all, we've only seen a couple of races in it until today's race.

Daytona, IMO, was lackluster due to the drivers and not the car. When it came time to run they did. That was drivers choice. You don't think so? Go back and watch the end of that race again.

Phoenix was kinda funny. I read the Rate the Race thread after that race and most everyone seemed to like it. A day or two later all of the sudden everyone trashing the new car. I have to admit that I found that a little odd. Probably the Denny Hamlin factor. Who knows?

So then we have today's race. There seems to be a mixed bag of reviews on that race too. Some for and some not so much. Here's a cool stat that I just tabulated. The race today had 2,342 green flag passes for position. The same race last year had 1,301. More than a thousand more green flag passes with this Gen6 car over last years model. I thought that was interesting and it could be just a fluke. Or, maybe they are starting to understand the car a little more. I listened to several drivers on the scanner today hearing many cry about how loose they were. I think it's pretty cool that the drivers complain like that. This shouldn't be easy. Normally, when the drivers are happy we don't have good racing. I liked the race today hope to see more like it on these 1.5ers. It sucks that they make up the majority of the schedule but maybe, just maybe, things are going to improve?
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Always stirring the pot... ;)
 
Speed Racer said:
I love the looks of the new car. But the not being able to pass the leader has me concerned. I also believe the green flag passes being higher is due to less yellows and passing under green flag pitstops. The racing seams to be more follow the leader than anything. If they don't resolve the issues fast attendance is only going to suffer more. I myself am questioning weather I want to go to Dega or just stay home and watch. It also seams to me they are ignoring any problem with the car and the mainstream media also appears to be ignoring it as well.
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As much as these guys just pull over and let the other guy PASS I don't put to much into those "green flag pass" numbers.
 
I agree with Matt , unrealistic expectations .Every change takes the teams once through the tracks to figure the car out . Why the new car was purposely overhyped is beyond me .
 
mike honcho said:
As much as these guys just pull over and let the other guy PASS I don't put to much into those "green flag pass" numbers.
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I saw that too , those lapped cars on the final laps were pulling over and getting out of Kenseth's way . What were they thinking? It was like they didn't care about going down another lap .:D
 
I like the Gen6 and Nascar has worked hard to give fans a good car.
I just dont appreciate the censorship, and the inability to deal with mild criticism.
Racing as a product is more like an art, there will always be flaws along with moments of exquisite beauty.

I want to appreciate the gen6, and with development I am convinced that it will have a great legacy when it is done and time for gen7.
I just want honest comentary from drivers and broadcasters that is based on reality. When a race is a lemon, lets just be honest enough to trust every one to come back next week without sugar coating matters.When it is great lets celebrate that too.
The reality of racing is the best selling point, when it is right, the passion, glory, smells and noise will possess the soul (no play on words, when done right it is close to being as good as sex).

Just respect the intelligence of race fans and allow them to respect their drivers as more than programmed puppets. People like to connect, and you must have someone who's real for that to happen.

Last of all the Gen6 has been sold as the gold standard, how naive can one be not to expect criticism when it doesnt happen. Just be confident and let it materialize, it isnt perfect, but it will develop into something very good.

Meanwhile folks will gripe, it aint Brians, Heltons, or Pembertons fault, Chasing technology and manipulating it is elusive. Just dont expect me to treat them with reverence, nor should the drivers.

After all I has my internets.....
 
Three races, with only two on non-plate tracks, is a small sample size. At this point in time I think there's a lot of room for improvement but the racing hasn't been that bad either. Today was one of the better races I've seen at LVMS.
 
Kahne didn't seem to have a chance at the end of todays race even though he had a dominate car today. Just seems like the leader has a little more of an advantage.
 
racer8 said:
Kahne didn't seem to have a chance at the end of todays race even though he had a dominate car today. Just seems like the leader has a little more of an advantage.
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I don't think that gives Matt much credit . His car did get continually better through the race and it may have been the best on the last run. Same as Jimmie's kind of went away a little . In any case Matt drove the wheels off the car at the end and wasn't letting anybody get by . You could hear the tension in his voice .
 
ted@economy said:
I don't think that gives Matt much credit . His car did get continually better through the race and it may have been the best on the last run. Same as Jimmie's kind of went away a little . In any case Matt drove the wheels off the car at the end and wasn't letting anybody get by . You could hear the tension in his voice .
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Matt deserves plenty of credit, I'm just saying what appeared to be a better car all day didn't have much of a chance.
 
First off, I'm not emotionally invested in this new car because I think in a year or 2 well be right back to where we were with the CoT.......UNLESS Goodyear brings a larger, softer tire. Can they do that with this car? Pemberton said Goodyear is deciding if they should. Maybe the ability to use a larger tire is the big, big secret for this new car?

IMO, when you build a heavy car for safety (kudos to nascar) and then go the aero route, these sized tires can't hold up unless they are very hard. Go back to the start of the CoT era and we had tires tearing apart. Too heavy, too fast for the size tires. The ONLY thing that is going to seperate these aero dependant cars enough for passing is tire wear. There is no way in hell Kenseth wins that race on old tires in last CoT, because aero push is worse than ever. There's no way the #2 car hangs on for 3rd either. Some people have a hard time grasping the difference between 'it's racing, it should be hard to pass' and the fastest car on the track being frustrated by aero push.

It's STILL position racing, and that wont change with this car. We'll see some seperation while some teams find stuff, but it will still be stay out on old tires and keep that aero advantage. nascar needs to get off the aero addiction and let these cars slow down a little and race on tires that wear.
 
I was really disapointed with the Daytona 500, I thought Phoenix was pretty good and on 1.5's I never expect much so I cant say I was disapointed with today's Las Vegas race.

I am more concerned with the tires so far. We saw at Phoenix that you only needed to make a 2 tire change during the race to stay up front.
Today at Las Vegas we saw Hamlin and Kenseth hold off cars that had 4 new tires.
Would like the tires to wear a little more so the decision to get tires or not has an effects if you can hold on to the lead.
 
racer8 said:
Matt deserves plenty of credit, I'm just saying what appeared to be a better car all day didn't have much of a chance.
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You think it had something to do with that giant spoiler in front of Kasey? Matt was masterful getting the air off Kaseys splitter at every turn exit, and that dropped Kasey back too far to make a pass. There is something very, very wrong when a slower car on older tires stays out front for 15 laps.

I'll wait for a Goodyear announcement before I get excited about the Gen6.
 
you guys are right in the announcers not really delving into things. during the race I pulled up nascar.com on my phone and had access to lap times. lap times really paint a different story than what is heard announced at the race. THE PROBLEM WITH THE CARS IS THEY ARE ALL RUNNING ABOUT THE SAME TIMES!!!! how in the world can you pass someone when your car is only a 1/4tenth faster than the guy in front of you. the aero advantage of the guy in front is more than what a 1/4 tenth is worth on the track. I also found that fresh tires after even 5-7 laps leveled off and would run about the same times after 10 laps as 40 lap tires would. this is why hamlin stayed in the top 5 with no tires before pitting for fuel. the cars right at the restart did have an advantage on hamlin at first but after that the lap times settled in with the other cars that had taken tires. fresh tires I think were worth a second to half a second a lap for the first 5-7 laps.

like I said and denny spilled the beans nascar is pushing "green" construction tires. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. nascar has taken tire fall off out of the sport. used to be a guy could manage his tires better than another guy, but when you have 10 lap tires running the same as 40 lap tires there isn't any management to it. a no tire call is what won the race so what I am speaking of can be proved. IMO the problem isn't so much with the cars but we have taken out one of the most important factors in the race and thats tire management. until the tire issues is sorted out I don't think we are going to see the racing we want. I thought the race was OK but passing still was tuff. tire wear will create comers and goers and thus more passing. lets keep in mind that on most tracks if you compared 10 lap tires to 40 lap tires we are talking at least a 1 second difference in speed espeically on a track like vegas. atlanta we are probably talking 3 second fall off in lap times with tires of the past ie non "green" tires. a guy that manages this better will come on late in the runs, its just a variable that ads to passing.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
IMO the problem isn't so much with the cars but we have taken out one of the most important factors in the race and thats tire management..
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The tires are hard and don't wear because the car is so heavy and goes so fast. That's all it is. A softer tire gets ripped apart, as we saw in the early days of the CoT until Goodyear made them this hard. Weight and speed determine what size and compound tire you need to be safe. Given the 3,450 car weight, the tires can't be softened until they are bigger tires. The larger contact patch will spread the loads, and a larger circumference will keep the heat down and keep the compound from melting.
 
I disagree that the cars are heavier, they have about the same weight now as the old cars, (gen 5) what is different and to a much less extent now is that the center of gravity is higher. weight was taken out of the gen 6 car to help this and I think they made an effort to try to remove the weight from higher points in the car. remember its where the weight is located that is a big factor. NO what we are seeing with tires is different than in the past. it started last year. when did you ever see someone come in and change left sides only?? that was last year and this year too. my understanding of tire wear is that wear allows the heat to escape and avoid the blistering, but the tires must be hard enough to last longer than a tank of fuel. the tire blow outs are typically caused by ill handeling cars and brake heat leading to the failure. The other thing is guys that blow tires from cooked beads normally have multiple tires pop because of cooked beads because the problem is setup not the tire. when you make larger tires, corner speeds will increase which will further make the aero dependancy worse. No denny said it nascar is trying to satisfy the enviro wackos with the tire compounds. so even the government is monekying with our favorite sport.
 
Why is everyone mentioning that the gen 6 car is heavier than the gen 5 car? I thought I read it was actually lighter?

Also by making the tire 'larger', do you mean wider?
 
Okay, granted, probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyhow. Everyone talks about how hard it is to pass the leader in these races. What makes the difference between the battle for first vs. second or fifth vs. sixth when the field begins to be lapped? Why is the air different for the leader than for the guy running in fifth? I can understand when the track is open in front of the leader but I don't once the field gets spread out.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Okay, granted, probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyhow. Everyone talks about how hard it is to pass the leader in these races. What makes the difference between the battle for first vs. second or fifth vs. sixth when the field begins to be lapped? Why is the air different for the leader than for the guy running in fifth? I can understand when the track is open in front of the leader but I don't once the field gets spread out.
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I've been replaying races in my mind , covering roughly the last thirty years :D , and I've found that it's always been tough to pass the leader . Back in the day ,we thought it was because he had the fastest car . Heck , he had no trouble getting to the front , but today he has some gobble-de-gook sci fi advantage that I don't understand . Technology has gone away and left me behind .
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Okay, granted, probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyhow. Everyone talks about how hard it is to pass the leader in these races. What makes the difference between the battle for first vs. second or fifth vs. sixth when the field begins to be lapped? Why is the air different for the leader than for the guy running in fifth? I can understand when the track is open in front of the leader but I don't once the field gets spread out.
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Uhhhhhhhh!!! I will venture a guess...

The leader is FASTER than the rest of the field. :p
 
Thank Nascar for listening to whiney cry baby Jack Rousch for instilling parity between the makes. Enter common templates and look alike cars. Gen 6 might look more likje the street version but still fit common templates. That is what is destroying Nascar, might as well go to a 36 race schedule with IROC cars.
CC finds something in the gray area and aformentioned whiner complains and Nascar deems it illegal.
 
Good try DP, started off great then after about a dozen posts the same old posts with tired diatribe. Preciate the try though. :cheers:
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Okay, granted, probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyhow. Everyone talks about how hard it is to pass the leader in these races. What makes the difference between the battle for first vs. second or fifth vs. sixth when the field begins to be lapped? Why is the air different for the leader than for the guy running in fifth? I can understand when the track is open in front of the leader but I don't once the field gets spread out.
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We saw the same thing happening with 2nd and 3rd, dpk. The 2 and 18 were way back from 1st and 2nd, so Kyle had clean air. Brad worked him over for 10 laps and finally passed. When he did, he was running the fastest laps on the track. An aero-dependant car needs clean air to run it's fastest. If the slower car gets there first, tough luck.

It's really funny to me how these longtime nascar fans have ignored all this for the past 7 years. :confused: The racing formula has changed dramatically since nascar went to the splitter, but none of the longtime fans notice???? Heck, why do you guys thing F1 uses push to pass?

I'm giving all you diehard, longtime fans an assignment. :p Start watching for one lead lap car closing fast on the next position (lapped cars will give up the clean air in the preferred line) and tell me why a guy more than 1/10th faster can't pass him when he gets there.

paradigm said:
Why is everyone mentioning that the gen 6 car is heavier than the gen 5 car? I thought I read it was actually lighter?

Also by making the tire 'larger', do you mean wider?
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Who said Gen 6 is heavier than gen 5???? Attention race fans, exaggerated aero push and rock hard tires have been with use since the heavy CoT arrived.

A Larger tire could be a larger height and / or wider. I think I explained all that in post #25.
 
BamaFan said:
Kasey had no problem all day coming to the front and taking the lead, Until the end when the leader was Matt. I give credit to Matt. He is a great driver and rarely gets the credit he deserves. JMHO
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If your OK with a race being decided by how the air moves around the leader, all I can say is lucky you. I think it's damn stupid that guys on tires with 30+ laps beat out guys with new tires.
 
Nobody is ignoring anything. Aero issues weren't born with the COT. It was an issue prior to the COT being introduced to the sport. It simply became more obvious as the car speeds became more consistent with each other due to parity.

I honestly don't know how some of you are ever going to be pleased with the racing. I watched a good race yesterday.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Nobody is ignoring anything. Aero issues weren't born with the COT. It was an issue prior to the COT being introduced to the sport. It simply became more obvious as the car speeds became more consistent with each other due to parity.

I honestly don't know how some of you are ever going to be pleased with the racing. I watched a good race yesterday.
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Sorry, but that's wrong. Parity is just a part of the problem. Kasey was much faster than Matt, but that wasn't enough to overcome the EXAGGERATED aero dependance of the last to generations of cars. KK - fastest laps, 49. Matt - 16. KK - led 114, Matt - 42. KK was much faster and had newer tires. Matt had clean air. Matt wins. Enjoy.
 
Maybe it's because lap down cars also HAVE TO PULL OVER and let the leader by.C'mon I know you heard them playing Matt's radio.It's easier to pass car when YOU tell THEM what line to take in front of you.
 
You are having some memory issues or you weren't around for the pre-COT era of racing if you don't remember the aero issues. It was a big deal then too. Oh, and he wasn't fast enough when it counts. Matt wins. Enjoy. ;)
 
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