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Formerjackman said:
I'm not sure whether you saw it or not , but my comment contained a specific example of this, but some moderator got their feelings hurt and removed it. It perfectly illustrated the point I was trying to make in a way that MAYBE you would have understood. People in the racing business say things EVERY DAY that are for public consumption, not necessarily the whole truth, and most people are smart enough to understand that. You don't seem to believe ANYTHING Rick Hendrick says, so why should WE be forced to believe EVERYTHING Joe Gibbs, David Wilson or Barney Visser says? My experience in the racing business is that if there is ANY kind of reason not to tell the 100% truth, you are most likely not getting the 100% truth. In a sport where public relations holds more sway than pretty much any other sport, people have $millions$ of reasons to alter the facts or withhold their true feelings and opinions to suit their purpose. Take the statement that Matty D. just put out. I like the guy, but in my opinion that was enough BS to fill a manure spreader.
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I am not sure what your point is here....So, anything said is at least partial bull****? Cool, then I will take the JGR price increase as fact, and then you buy into what Barney said as fact. Look, man we all have our biases, and we support the narrative that feeds our favorites. The rest is all biased banter. Harmless. All good. We have pages of bull**** about Furniture Row when the man himself said it's not a story....but "common sense," blah, blah, blah....At the end of the day, I would agree with what I think you are saying.....These are rich dudes playing a game, and we should be thankful for that.....and I am.
 
Revman said:
I am not sure what your point is here....So, anything said is at least partial bull****? Cool, then I will take the JGR price increase as fact, and then you buy into what Barney said as fact. Look, man we all have our biases, and we support the narrative that feeds our favorites. The rest is all biased banter. Harmless. All good. We have pages of bull**** about Furniture Row when the man himself said it's not a story....but "common sense," blah, blah, blah....At the end of the day, I would agree with what I think you are saying.....These are rich dudes playing a game, and we should be thankful for that.....and I am.
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I don't think ANYBODY (except maybe you) is disputing that JGR was demanding more money. Whether that had any effect on Barney leaving the sport IS a matter of dispute. People with FAR MORE inside knowledge than any of us have suggested that it was. I tend to look at results, not words. I tend to look at what people DO, not what they SAY. The price went up, Barney left. Not too hard to draw a conclusion. Was it 10% responsible, 20%, 50% 100% or 0% , nobody knows for sure except Barney, and he's not talking. At the end of the day, it IS rich dudes playing a game, which is why the notion that one of them MIGHT have done one of the other ones dirty shouldn't come as any shock to you, even if it happens to be one you like. It's just like the whole cheating thing. I would NEVER be crazy enough to believe that "my" guys (Chevy, HMS) are virgins when it come to bending the rules.
 
Yeah, I've covered this. And honestly, you can believe whatever story you want and still be partially correct.

JGR is about 75-80% responsible for no more FRR. Not 100%. But certainly (and intentionally) made the hill to climb extremely difficult. That whole ordeal rubbed many people the wrong way, especially TRD, who, despite what many believe, DO NOT call the shots as it relates to any of the Toyota teams, or decide what they should do. They have a strong influence...like many big sponsors have a strong influence...but they do not make the decisions.

So, when you combine the JGR pricing with some sponsorship turnover, it just didn't make sense for Barney to continue. But he could have. There was still some potential, and he certainly had the cash to backstop the money hunt. He just chose not to. Never even really tried, tbh. I think that whole deal, mixed with his health (don't forget, they won the championship while he was at home recovering from a heart attack), as well as some family pressure was enough to make him step away. Call it a "forced, but probably for the better" retirement.

In summary: would FRR still be racing if JGR hadn't done what they did? Yes. Could FRR still have raced despite JGR? Yes.

Everyone here wins!!!

(And since it keeps coming up...I have spoken to Barney privately. Many times. Even recently. He's a really good dude ;))
 
Allenbaba said:
Yeah, I've covered this. And honestly, you can believe whatever story you want and still be partially correct.

JGR is about 75-80% responsible for no more FRR. Not 100%. But certainly (and intentionally) made the hill to climb extremely difficult. That whole ordeal rubbed many people the wrong way, especially TRD, who, despite what many believe, DO NOT call the shots as it relates to any of the Toyota teams, or decide what they should do. They have a strong influence...like many big sponsors have a strong influence...but they do not make the decisions.

So, when you combine the JGR pricing with some sponsorship turnover, it just didn't make sense for Barney to continue. But he could have. There was still some potential, and he certainly had the cash to backstop the money hunt. He just chose not to. Never even really tried, tbh. I think that whole deal, mixed with his health (don't forget, they won the championship while he was at home recovering from a heart attack), as well as some family pressure was enough to make him step away. Call it a "forced, but probably for the better" retirement.

In summary: would FRR still be racing if JGR hadn't done what they did? Yes. Could FRR still have raced despite JGR? Yes.

Everyone here wins!!!

(And since it keeps coming up...I have spoken to Barney privately. Many times. Even recently. He's a really good dude ;))
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Thank you for that post. I love reading from a knowledgeable and trustworthy source like you.
 
Revman said:
Door, Bumper, Clear on the Jimmie thing. Look it up. So, there's four of US.

Do you really think that Chevy gives a **** about RCR? Trackhouse was cute until the Felon got restless....then whoever else? Do you really and truly think that Jim Campbell wanted equity?
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No, they didn't say HMS/Chevy turned their back on Jimmie. They expressed surprise that Chevy would "let him" switch manufacturers, considering their history. Clearly the deal was great for Legacy and for TRD, as it makes a ton of sense for both. But the guys offered no actual reasoning or insight to back their "spot off" opinions, other than nostalgia. And then Freddie closes with the only useful nugget of information, a comment about how that team was flirting with Toyota (and every other manufacturer) for years before Jimmie even bought in.

Of course Chevy cares about RCR. Their relationship goes back, what is it, 50 something years now? And Trackhouse is clearly one of the Chevy teams "at the table" or however your DBC friends would put it. So again, what should Chevrolet have done with their budget in mind? Which team should they have kicked to the curb in order to outbid TRD for the rights to keep Legacy, a team with no record of success.....ever? Since you are so critical about HMS/Chevy, what do YOU think they should have done, and how could you justify it?
 
Revman said:
Fine line between conclusion and assumption. Who in the sport is countering what Barney said?
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Well, Allenbaba for ONE, but I've heard basically the same story from multiple other sources. 9 times out of 10, where there's smoke, there's fire. You also have to admit that track record isn't very good for Toyota teams not named JGR. Of course my point of view is coming from HMS, who played major roles in getting MULTIPLE GM teams off the ground, including JGR. I understand Toyota's business model is a little different, but what has JGR, as one of the biggest powerhouse teams, REALLY done to spread the love around?
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
LOL. I am not sure I believe it either. I think he's trying to start people on speculating what and where he's tatted.
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Honestly I read your post without seeing the one you were replying to and immediately thought of @Revman and a cheek with a 'Yota logo. 🤪 :XXROFL: :XXROFL: :puffin:
 
Formerjackman said:
Well, Allenbaba for ONE, but I've heard basically the same story from multiple other sources. 9 times out of 10, where there's smoke, there's fire. You also have to admit that track record isn't very good for Toyota teams not named JGR. Of course my point of view is coming from HMS, who played major roles in getting MULTIPLE GM teams off the ground, including JGR. I understand Toyota's business model is a little different, but what has JGR, as one of the biggest powerhouse teams, REALLY done to spread the love around?
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I don't think @Allenbaba did counter Barney, but I will let him speak for himself.
 
Revman said:
I don't think Allenbaba did counter Barney, but I will let him speak for himself.
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Here, let me help....

Allenbaba said:
JGR is about 75-80% responsible for no more FRR. Not 100%. But certainly (and intentionally) made the hill to climb extremely difficult. That whole ordeal rubbed many people the wrong way
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Oh, and I'm still waiting....

2 Sweet said:
Since you are so critical about HMS/Chevy, what do YOU think they should have done, and how could you justify it?
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2 Sweet said:
Here, let me help....



Oh, and I'm still waiting....
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I didn't see anything from @Allenbaba that would refute what Barney said. But you go kid. Why do you all work so hard to make Barney's quote a non-issue. I think that @Allenbaba made it clear that this was Barney's choice, and his choice alone.

Flattered that you hang on my every word. Truly. Does Chevy answer to the teams, or do they answer to Chevy--I mean if you are not HMS? They don't have to justify ****. Jimmie won them seven championships. That should have mattered, but The Felon is cutthroat. Can you imagine the bull**** if this had been a JGR/TRD/KB thing? Wait, it was, and the Preacher tried to pay him out of his own pocket. Narrative baby. Always the narrative. Let's talk rocket fuel now....can we?
 
Revman said:
I didn't see anything from @Allenbaba that would refute what Barney said. But you go kid. Why do you all work so hard to make Barney's quote a non-issue. I think that @Allenbaba made it clear that this was Barney's choice, and his choice alone.

Flattered that you hang on my every word. Truly. Does Chevy answer to the teams, or do they answer to Chevy--I mean if you are not HMS? They don't have to justify ****. Jimmie won them seven championships. That should have mattered, but The Felon is cutthroat. Can you imagine the bull**** if this had been a JGR/TRD/KB thing? Wait, it was, and the Preacher tried to pay him out of his own pocket. Narrative baby. Always the narrative. Let's talk rocket fuel now....can we?
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Evidently reading comprehension is not your thing. Yes, it was Barney's choice. His choice not to accept getting held up at gunpoint by JGR. When someone who actually talks to Barney says that JGR was 70-80% responsible for him leaving the sport, what does that say to YOU? Also, until you can show ANY shred of evidence that Chevy or HMS did ANYTHING to Jimmie, your blather is going to fall on deaf ears. As it stands we have NO HINT that Jimmie (or Maury) tried to get a dime from either one of them. As far as both entities were concerned, Jimmie was buying into what was a Chevy team. All is well with that. Then one day, the world wakes up, and Legacy is a Toyota team. What EXACTLY were Chevy and HMS supposed to DO at that point? Unless you can show us where Chevy and or HMS was presented with an opportunity and turned it down, you are just mindlessly speculating. Calling Rick Hendrick cutthroat is about as hilarious as it gets. I suppose it was HIS fault that his old pal Gene Haas signed with Ford too.
 
Revman said:
I didn't see anything from Allenbaba that would refute what Barney said. But you go kid. Why do you all work so hard to make Barney's quote a non-issue. I think that Allenbaba made it clear that this was Barney's choice, and his choice alone.

Flattered that you hang on my every word. Truly. Does Chevy answer to the teams, or do they answer to Chevy--I mean if you are not HMS? They don't have to justify ****. Jimmie won them seven championships. That should have mattered, but The Felon is cutthroat. Can you imagine the bull**** if this had been a JGR/TRD/KB thing? Wait, it was, and the Preacher tried to pay him out of his own pocket. Narrative baby. Always the narrative. Let's talk rocket fuel now....can we?
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Yeah, that's the non-answer I was expecting.

Again, all of this BS started because you were digging deep to find fault in HMS/Chevy instead of just celebrating the addition of Legacy to YOUR lineup. You made a half dozen ridiculous comments about Jim Campbell or Rick Hendrick "giving Jimmie the finger" in the Legacy thread, and nobody took the bait. But then you brought it in here and I guess you finally got what you want. Bravo.
 
While I was eating lunch, I went back and read every single online article I could find about about the Legacy switch. A couple things became quickly apparent. At least as THEY are telling the story, David Wilson approached Maury Gallagher sometime last year, and Jimmie Johnson at some point after that. It is also clear that the driving factor in the switch was Toyota's agreement to put Legacy on totally autonomous footing with the manufacturer, with no ties to JGR. (My guess is the root of that is how the Furniture Row deal went down) That in itself speaks volumes if you ask me, but what becomes obvious is that right or wrong, Toyota was offering a deal that Chevy would not and likely could not offer. Knowing that, I seriously doubt Chevy was ever even given an opportunity to counter offer. I kind of look at it like the offer Dodge made to Ray Evernham. As much as I hated to lose him, there was NOTHING on earth that HMS was going to offer that could have topped what they offered him. Hell, even I would have told him to take it. If I know Rick Hendrick, he probably told Jimmie the same thing.
 
2 Sweet said:
Come on Rev, you weren't born yesterday. Don't pretend to be so naïve.

The irony is that all of this started up again because you continued to take shots at HMS/Chevy. Poor little Jimmie getting left out in the cold by mean old Chevy and the big bad Felon. Something about throwing stones and a glass house comes to mind.....
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HMS/Chevy is so deep into Rev's head that I would seriously bet that he wakes up in the middle of the night from nightmares and cold sweats. :D
 
Allenbaba said:
What Barney quote are we talking about?
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"What Joe Gibbs was talking about wasn't ridiculous," Visser said of the alliance fee. "His numbers were purely objective. ... What we couldn't agree on was how much we brought to them and how much that was worth spread over four cars. That was subjective."

www.espn.com

FRR owner: Not worth restarting without Truex

Team owner Barney Visser says the difficult decision to close the doors of Furniture Row Racing, which won the 2017 championship with Martin Truex Jr., has weighed on him, but he is most concerned that his employees find work.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 
Revman said:
"What Joe Gibbs was talking about wasn't ridiculous," Visser said of the alliance fee. "His numbers were purely objective. ... What we couldn't agree on was how much we brought to them and how much that was worth spread over four cars. That was subjective."

www.espn.com

FRR owner: Not worth restarting without Truex

Team owner Barney Visser says the difficult decision to close the doors of Furniture Row Racing, which won the 2017 championship with Martin Truex Jr., has weighed on him, but he is most concerned that his employees find work.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
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In other words, Gibbs jacked up his price and didn't want to pay Barney his. This should be simple to understand.
 
Formerjackman said:
When someone who actually talks to Barney says that JGR was 70-80% responsible for him leaving the sport, what does that say to YOU?
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I will own a Lexus at some point. However, 75% of the reason why I currently don't is because I don't want to spend that kind of money right now. I guess I will blame Lexus.
 
Revman said:
I will own a Lexus at some point. However, 75% of the reason why I currently don't is because I don't want to spend that kind of money right now. I guess I will blame Lexus.
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Nope. Nice try, though.

But let's say you already own a Lexus. And if you want to continue to own your Lexus, you better triple your monthly payment, even though nothing has changed. Why? Because you're enjoying it too much, and Lexus can't get on board with that. They see how much you like it, and determine you are getting too much car for your money. So, you wanna keep enjoying it? Better pay the NEW cost of what they think it's worth now.

But yeah, the "cutthroat" felon who helped YOUR Joe Gibbs, and Felix Sabates, and Gene Haas, and countless others get their start in racing? The guy who got rid of an underperforming Kasey Kahne, found him a ride elsewhere, and continued to pay him? The guy who never had a single driver or customer or employee say a bad word about him? The guy who gives you and YOUR TRD powered Toyota teams nightmares? Yeah, I guess it's his fault Jimmie didn't buy into HMS when he had the chance. I guess it's his fault that Legacy has been a bottom feeder for their entire existence. I guess it's his fault that Chevrolet didn't abandon their partners to get into a bidding war for a team that has a FORMER driver as a new minority owner....of an unsuccessful team. I guess it's his fault that Chevrolet had 3x as many cars in the field as Toyota, and he couldn't convince Jim Campbell to stretch the budget to keep their numbers.

Keep trying, Rev. You can do better.
 
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Revman said:
I will own a Lexus at some point. However, 75% of the reason why I currently don't is because I don't want to spend that kind of money right now. I guess I will blame Lexus.
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If a Hendrick toyota dealer had a really good deal on a car you had to have would you buy from him
 
2 Sweet said:
Nope. Nice try, though.

But let's say you already own a Lexus. And if you want to continue to own your Lexus, you better triple your monthly payment, even though nothing has changed. Why? Because you're enjoying it too much, and Lexus can't get on board with that. They see how much you like it, and determine you are getting too much car for your money. So, you wanna keep enjoying it? Better pay the NEW cost of what they think it's worth now.

But yeah, the "cutthroat" felon who helped YOUR Joe Gibbs, and Felix Sabates, and Gene Haas, and countless others get their start in racing? The guy who got rid of an underperforming Kasey Kahne, found him a ride elsewhere, and continued to pay him? The guy who never had a single driver or customer or employee say a bad word about him? The guy who gives you and YOUR TRD powered Toyota teams nightmares? Yeah, I guess it's his fault Jimmie didn't buy into HMS when he had the chance. I guess it's his fault that Legacy has been a bottom feeder for their entire existence. I guess it's his fault that Chevrolet didn't abandon their partners to get into a bidding war for a team that has a FORMER driver as a new minority owner....of an unsuccessful team. I guess it's his fault that Chevrolet had 3x as many cars in the field as Toyota, and he couldn't convince Jim Campbell to stretch the budget to keep their numbers.

Keep trying, Rev. You can do better.
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Thanks for posting that. Could not have said it better myself.
 
2 Sweet said:
Nope. Nice try, though.

But let's say you already own a Lexus. And if you want to continue to own your Lexus, you better triple your monthly payment, even though nothing has changed. Why? Because you're enjoying it too much, and Lexus can't get on board with that. They see how much you like it, and determine you are getting too much car for your money. So, you wanna keep enjoying it? Better pay the NEW cost of what they think it's worth now.

But yeah, the "cutthroat" felon who helped YOUR Joe Gibbs, and Felix Sabates, and Gene Haas, and countless others get their start in racing? The guy who got rid of an underperforming Kasey Kahne, found him a ride elsewhere, and continued to pay him? The guy who never had a single driver or customer or employee say a bad word about him? The guy who gives you and YOUR TRD powered Toyota teams nightmares? Yeah, I guess it's his fault Jimmie didn't buy into HMS when he had the chance. I guess it's his fault that Legacy has been a bottom feeder for their entire existence. I guess it's his fault that Chevrolet didn't abandon their partners to get into a bidding war for a team that has a FORMER driver as a new minority owner....of an unsuccessful team. I guess it's his fault that Chevrolet had 3x as many cars in the field as Toyota, and he couldn't convince Jim Campbell to stretch the budget to keep their numbers.

Keep trying, Rev. You can do better.
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Yeah, but if you get into a variable rate loan, it's based on the market. Same car, paying more.....but worth it.

You have your opinions, and I have mine. The Benevolent Felon is the top of the heap.....Maybe he helped, but not so much so that he relinquished his throne. Sound familiar? ....and Chevy isn't victimized by their car counts--particularly in the Next Gen era.....and they can do whatever they choose to do....and what they do is kiss the ring. Welcome Jimmie. I think he is a perfect match for OUR TRD culture. Very excited.

Great discussion, and I appreciate your perspective. You and other posters with differing opinions really teach me a lot here. Thanks again.
 
Revman said:
"What Joe Gibbs was talking about wasn't ridiculous," Visser said of the alliance fee. "His numbers were purely objective. ... What we couldn't agree on was how much we brought to them and how much that was worth spread over four cars. That was subjective."

www.espn.com

FRR owner: Not worth restarting without Truex

Team owner Barney Visser says the difficult decision to close the doors of Furniture Row Racing, which won the 2017 championship with Martin Truex Jr., has weighed on him, but he is most concerned that his employees find work.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
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I'm not sure how to interpret this, honestly, but it really doesn't matter. What I do know as a fact - he thought the JGR numbers were too high. And he will operate the rest of his life under the premise that the reason he decided to stop racing was because JGR screwed him. He'd never take that to the press, though. Because unlike "the preacher" or "the felon" (who would both screw over their mothers if it meant 1/10 more on the speed charts), Barney actually is a good Christian, and practices what he preaches.

This whole debate is moot, though. Most team owners are only interested in their own self preservation. They are all cutthroat.
 
Revman said:
Welcome Jimmie. I think he is a perfect match for OUR TRD culture. Very excited.
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For years and I mean years and years the yotas have put all of their eggs in cup in one basket. They haven't lifted a finger to keep more than four cars in Cup. In fact they turned a blind eye while fire sale Joe tried to keep it all to himself with their blessings in a revolving driver and affiliate teams environment. Recently they let it be known they were looking for more Cup teams. They probably gave Legacy a swinging deal compared to the deal a lesser and I mean lesser Chevy team gets or deserves for money spent. BTW that is only fair when teams like Hendrick and RCR have been running Chevy's forever, manufacture and develop engines and parts to support other smaller Chevy teams. BTW Gibbs produces little or nothing for the Yotas and even less with the new agreement that Toyota/TRD has with each team's new ability of dealing directly with TRD now and cutting out the middle man fire sale Joe.

Maury paid off Petty's debt, close to 9 million to buy out his partner,(real owner), bought the charters and who knows what. Jimmie's stake it is safe to say it isn't close to Maury Gallagher's skin in the game. It's pretty evident by performance that they didn't have the much needed funds or experience to compete at the cup level and they were sinking fast.

Personally I don't see Toyota bailing them out if they continue to flounder in the Cup series. I'm not saying they should, Legacy got a bit better deal from an OEM and to a team that is having huge cash flow problems the deal is better than they had. It's sink or swim time. It has taken years for 23XI to be even a little competitive with deep pockets behind them in contrast.

Jimmie deciding that now is the time to be a car owner instead of years ago is all on Jimmie. I'm pretty sure he can see the dollars and cents of it. He had little choice being a minority owner.
 
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