I don't get it.

SpeedPagan

SpeedPagan

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I watched the Atlanta race yesterday and I just don't get it. What are the stages supposed to do? If it was supposed to enhance the racing product, then it failed, miserably. IMHO the race would've played out in similar ways regardless of whether or not it had stages. It decreased the amount of "debris" caution. Honestly I think the new Five Minutes of repair rules did more towards that end than the segments did. As for reduction in commercials, yea, no. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but yesterday's race felt like it had the same amount of commercials the races last year did.

As far as I can tell, the stages just made the points system needlessly more complicated. Like I said in the title, I just don't get it.
 
I get stage racing for plate races...and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I don't get stage racing for any other tracks. It didn't seem to create any more urgency for the 3 Atlanta races last weekend. I expect the same to be true at Vegas.
 
SpeedPagan said:
I watched the Atlanta race yesterday and I just don't get it. What are the stages supposed to do? If it was supposed to enhance the racing product, then it failed, miserably. IMHO the race would've played out in similar ways regardless of whether or not it had stages. It decreased the amount of "debris" caution. Honestly I think the new Five Minutes of repair rules did more towards that end than the segments did. As for reduction in commercials, yea, no. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but yesterday's race felt like it had the same amount of commercials the races last year did.

As far as I can tell, the stages just made the points system needlessly more complicated. Like I said in the title, I just don't get it.
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All the stages do is showcase another gimmick by Nascar. The Chase is a gimmick, the Plates are a gimmick, the Point structure is a gimmick,all fail miserably.
 
I wasn't watching on tv, so maybe they failed to show it but I know on twitter they were saying how Austin Dillon was pushing hard to get from 12th to 10th. As always I believe it's a TV not covering more then the top 5 thing.
 
The stages were supposed to get the drivers to push harder during the race. However, it seems like the drivers (withe exception of restrictor plate racing) were not holding back all that much, it all. My theory is that the most of the cars are pretty evenly matched, and the Aero in NASCAR favors the car in front. (Remember the slingshot? Neither do I)

The result is that after a restart, the really fast cars quickly get to the front and then fall in line.

tldr: Stage racing doesn't change anything because the cars suck.
 
sloggie said:
The stages were supposed to get the drivers to push harder during the race. However, it seems like the drivers (withe exception of restrictor plate racing) were not holding back all that much, it all. My theory is that the most of the cars are pretty evenly matched, and the Aero in NASCAR favors the car in front. (Remember the slingshot? Neither do I)

The result is that after a restart, the really fast cars quickly get to the front and then fall in line.

tldr: Stage racing doesn't change anything because the cars suck.
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We have a winner! Yep you nailed it and like I said Nascar comes up with another gimmick to put a band aid over the problem instead of fixing it.
 
Sunday had less cautions and more full tire cyles of degradation, I will take that kind of racing any day of the week.
They can call it any kind of racing they want, it is not a big deal to me.

And if am I going to endure or tolerate preplanned cautions, I want a transparent plan and execution. Verses Nascar trying to pick the random times that seems to be the fairist option at a given time. Which by description is unbalanced or an unreasonable target for the competitors.

Not bothered by the non winner racking up the stage points either. They are on the table for all to have, first come first serve, race hard all day and get them or else , a good formula at least for the audience.
And the incentive to win the race still remains much bigger, 4 times a single stage award, or twice as much as all stages combined.

Last of all and paramount: If we are going to run 500 mile races, all about the survival of the fittest and a true measure of the most worthy of the day.
One has to know aside from the premanufactured drama there will be some runaways. Aside from absolute spec cars randomly assigned on race day or RP racing , there will always be times when someone runs like Harvick did on Sunday.

If someone absolutely has to have the hottest battle being for P1, or is unable to follow the race as a whole, they will and should expect to be disappointed often in virtually every context . It is just almost impossible to produce that kind of chemistry without fail, thus the shenanigans.

The stages aren't perfect for sure, but they at least toned down race controls God complex, or yellow interventions.
And the winner still got the trophy and trophy queen moments. It is still the big prize, and racing reference will still record Brad K as the winner.

I am good with that, and all the above is just my opinion.
 
It was more obvious that the segment/stage racing @ Dayton worked because it was easily seen that they were fighting for those top 10 positions as the segment neared an end. Having 1st through 10th only being 0.15 seconds apart enabled them to do that and it was able to be shown in a single camera frame. The same type of racing at any other track will never be able to be displayed on television because of the spreading out of the field. It may be more apparent if you're actually sitting there watching the race in person. I'll have to wait to judge that for myself.

In the meantime, the segment racing is certainly not taking away from anything that I'm watching on Sunday's. It's simply another caution as far as I'm concerned. Another opportunity to hit the head, grab another beer and get back into my seat. Not a huge deal IMO.
 
sloggie said:
The stages were supposed to get the drivers to push harder during the race. However, it seems like the drivers (withe exception of restrictor plate racing) were not holding back all that much, it all. ...
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I think we've all heard drivers talk about logging laps in the middle of the race and waiting for the last couple of pit cycles to make their move. That sure sounds like holding back to me, or at least not going all out. Mind you, I had no problem with that approach to an extended race.

I still want the laps between stages to not be counted, and I'm telling NASCAR on every fan survey. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with them.

Sidebar: I laugh when a golfer rips off a couple of birdies and the announcers say something stupid like, "He's making his move!". What, you mean he's intentionally been shooting par on the front nine?
 
more participation trophies.

image589.png
 
Greg said:
Sunday had less cautions and more full tire cyles of degradation, I will take that kind of racing any day of the week.
They can call it any kind of racing they want, it is not a big deal to me.

And if am I going to endure or tolerate preplanned cautions, I want a transparent plan and execution. Verses Nascar trying to pick the random times that seems to be the fairist option at a given time. Which by description is unbalanced or an unreasonable target for the competitors.

Not bothered by the non winner racking up the stage points either. They are on the table for all to have, first come first serve, race hard all day and get them or else , a good formula at least for the audience.
And the incentive to win the race still remains much bigger, 4 times a single stage award, or twice as much as all stages combined.

Last of all and paramount: If we are going to run 500 mile races, all about the survival of the fittest and a true measure of the most worthy of the day.
One has to know aside from the premanufactured drama there will be some runaways. Aside from absolute spec cars randomly assigned on race day or RP racing , there will always be times when someone runs like Harvick did on Sunday.

If someone absolutely has to have the hottest battle being for P1, or is unable to follow the race as a whole, they will and should expect to be disappointed often in virtually every context . It is just almost impossible to produce that kind of chemistry without fail, thus the shenanigans.

The stages aren't perfect for sure, but they at least toned down race controls God complex, or yellow interventions.
And the winner still got the trophy and trophy queen moments. It is still the big prize, and racing reference will still record Brad K as the winner.

I am good with that, and all the above is just my opinion.
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Very, very, very well said. I can overlook a lot of things Nascar has done like the method used to crown a champion simply by not acknowledging the champion. One thing I could not overlook was the bogus yellow flags as I felt like Nascar had hired Steven Spielberg to direct a program instead of allowing a race to play out naturally. The stages are completely unnecessary to me as I have yet to see any meaningful ways competitors race the race within a race but I am all for them if they get rid of the phony cautions Nascar had relied upon in order to manufacture drama.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
It was more obvious that the segment/stage racing @ Dayton worked because it was easily seen that they were fighting for those top 10 positions as the segment neared an end. Having 1st through 10th only being 0.15 seconds apart enabled them to do that and it was able to be shown in a single camera frame. The same type of racing at any other track will never be able to be displayed on television because of the spreading out of the field. It may be more apparent if you're actually sitting there watching the race in person. I'll have to wait to judge that for myself.

In the meantime, the segment racing is certainly not taking away from anything that I'm watching on Sunday's. It's simply another caution as far as I'm concerned. Another opportunity to hit the head, grab another beer and get back into my seat. Not a huge deal IMO.
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The funny thing about stage racing is that an unintended consequence may end up being that many of the fans from home use the 10 minute or so break to do things like take the dog out, make a sandwich, use the facilities or catch 40 winks. It also provides a nice period of time for channel surfers.

It is still too early for me to comment definitively on the impact of stages but to me they seem like they have made Nascar think twice about calling a bogus cautions and I can't see them having much of an impact on the overall racing effort. If a guy in stage 1 has a 7th place car it really isn't worth it for him to overdrive it and wreck in an attempt to finish 6th.
 
sdj said:
Stage racing:
The Top ten at the end of the first 2 stages get the points, fine, but, don't through a BS caution at each stage. JMHO
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I don't have a problem with pausing the race between stages, just don't count those laps. That gives the second stage winner the same points payoff as the first stage winner, but for shorter stage than the first; substantially shorter depending on the lengths of the track, stages, race, and series.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
... If a guy in stage 1 has a 7th place car it really isn't worth it for him to overdrive it and wreck in an attempt to finish 6th.
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This. As DPK noted, it's a lot easier to make up positions on a plate track where the distance between positions is relatively small. On an unrestricted track, I don't see guys busting their humps to move from 8th to 3rd. 3rd to 1st, maybe, depending on the track and proximity to the front.

Let's see how it goes away from the 'Brobdingnagians', on road courses and track lengths of one mile or shorter.
 
Wasn’t Smith’s suggestion a caution more often than this? The suggestion that prompted young Brian to say NASCAR didn’t do gimmicks? That one.

Heck, if two cautions for the segment things to enhance the fan experience is good, more than that has gotta be better.
 
BobbyFord said:
Scheduled breaks in competition is not competitive. Scripted drama is not dramatic...and the point system is a convoluted joke.
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The Chase, err payoffs, in NASCAR is a convoluted joke. All other changes pale in comparison. They are not even close in any way shape or form. The single change of implementing a playoff format of any kind in this sport was and continues to be it's downfall. All the other competition changes since 2004 are an attempt to bring this sport back to its pre-Chase glory while a blind eye is turned to the real problem. While the real problem is ignored, they'll continue to alienate the current fan base in an attempt to grab the ADD crowd that is concerned with things such as the noise factor and other trivial pursuits that will eventually turn this sport into a distant memory for a once promising and growing fandom.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
The Chase, err payoffs, in NASCAR is a convoluted joke. All other changes pale in comparison. They are not even close in any way shape or form. The single change of implementing a playoff format of any kind in this sport was and continues to be it's downfall. All the other competition changes since 2004 are an attempt to bring this sport back to its pre-Chase glory while a blind eye is turned to the real problem. While the real problem is ignored, they'll continue to alienate the current fan base in an attempt to grab the ADD crowd that is concerned with things such as the noise factor and other trivial pursuits that will eventually turn this sport into a distant memory for a once promising and growing fandom.
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THIS 100%
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
The Chase, err payoffs, in NASCAR is a convoluted joke. All other changes pale in comparison. They are not even close in any way shape or form. The single change of implementing a playoff format of any kind in this sport was and continues to be it's downfall. All the other competition changes since 2004 are an attempt to bring this sport back to its pre-Chase glory while a blind eye is turned to the real problem. While the real problem is ignored, they'll continue to alienate the current fan base in an attempt to grab the ADD crowd that is concerned with things such as the noise factor and other trivial pursuits that will eventually turn this sport into a distant memory for a once promising and growing fandom.
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Yes....but they aren't adding fans, one has to only look at the stands at races to see that. In fact many tracks have actually covered up or taken out seats.
 
SpeedPagan said:
I watched the Atlanta race yesterday and I just don't get it. What are the stages supposed to do? If it was supposed to enhance the racing product, then it failed, miserably. IMHO the race would've played out in similar ways regardless of whether or not it had stages. It decreased the amount of "debris" caution. Honestly I think the new Five Minutes of repair rules did more towards that end than the segments did. As for reduction in commercials, yea, no. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but yesterday's race felt like it had the same amount of commercials the races last year did.

As far as I can tell, the stages just made the points system needlessly more complicated. Like I said in the title, I just don't get it.
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This, the racing was pretty much the same as it would of been without the two green/white flags.
aunty dive said:
Need to see it for half a season before I decide.
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And this too
dpkimmel2001 said:
It was more obvious that the segment/stage racing @ Dayton worked because it was easily seen that they were fighting for those top 10 positions as the segment neared an end. Having 1st through 10th only being 0.15 seconds apart enabled them to do that and it was able to be shown in a single camera frame. The same type of racing at any other track will never be able to be displayed on television because of the spreading out of the field. It may be more apparent if you're actually sitting there watching the race in person. I'll have to wait to judge that for myself.

In the meantime, the segment racing is certainly not taking away from anything that I'm watching on Sunday's. It's simply another caution as far as I'm concerned. Another opportunity to hit the head, grab another beer and get back into my seat. Not a huge deal IMO.
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But really this too.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Let me help you. Just another gimmick. Get rid of the splitter and take the tapered spacer off. I'd love to see a couple races a year where the leader was on his/her own lap. ******* school em. let the best man...err...woman win. Forget parity. IT SUCKS!
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I cant even............., no, having one car on the lead would suck, and that would be for a very boring "race".
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
In the meantime, the segment racing is certainly not taking away from anything that I'm watching on Sunday's. It's simply another caution as far as I'm concerned. Another opportunity to hit the head, grab another beer and get back into my seat. Not a huge deal IMO.
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And if everyone was already racing hard and the segments didn't change that, then why does it matter to have them? I agree with you ....pee break and a beer.

Plus I actually DO believe it makes them race harder.
 
Clutch said:
And if everyone was already racing hard and the segments didn't change that, then why does it matter to have them? I agree with you ....pee break and a beer.

Plus I actually DO believe it makes them race harder.
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It matters because it destroys the natural flow of the race, taking the lead away from a driver who earned it and lets cars back on the lead lap who don't deserve to be.
 
29-4 said:
It matters because it destroys the natural flow of the race, taking a lead away from a driver who earned it and lets cars back on the lead lap who don't deserve to..
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Takes the lead away from a driver that deserves it? Wtf? :idunno:
 
no one was going to pass harvick under green flag racing Sunday, so nascar did what it does controls the outcome to get the ending they want.
 
Clutch said:
Ahhh...ok thanks,. Just like any caution does.
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Yes. A caution for a reason is part of the natural flow of a race. A caution for no reason cheats the fan out of fair competition. As I've said many times, imagine if the NBA said they would give the team that is behind free points at the end of every quarter. This is just as illogical.
 
29-4 said:
Yes. A caution for a reason is part of the natural flow of a race. A caution for no reason cheats the fan out of fair competition. As I've said many times, imagine if the NBA said they would give the team that is behind free points at the end of every quarter. This is just as illogical.
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Your analogy is completely wrong. Nascar is awarding points for leading not losing.
 
Clutch said:
Your analogy is completely wrong. Nascar is awarding points for leading not losing.
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NASCAR is allowing the field to catch up to the leader through an arbitrary caution. This is the equivalent of basketball awarding free points to the team that is losing at the end of every quarter.
 
29-4 said:
NASCAR is allowing the field to catch up to the leader through an arbitrary caution. This is the equivalent of basketball awarding free points to the team that is losing at the end of every quarter.
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Ok I get it,. You don't like the changes. I do.
We have differing opinions....nothing wrong with that. :)
 
Clutch said:
Ok I get it,. You don't like the changes. I do.
We have differing opinions....nothing wrong with that. :)
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I'm giving it a chance. I don't hate it as much as I thought I would. Ive listed a couple changes that I think would make it better (don't count the laps, no lucky dogs). I agree, nothing wrong with differing opinions :)
 
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