Kyle Busch is 20 wins Away From Tying Richard Petty at 200.

jaqua19 said:
Yes..yes they are.

And he's the only one talked about like that. I've also said Johnson's ability as a driver has been very underselled on TV as well.

But every era has had 2 all time greats. Tony's career flamed out. So they are trying to raise KB to be THAT 2nd guy. The only problem is it doesn't work because Johnson has been exclusively dominant.

It just goes back to marketing, like it does for every sport.
Click to expand...

Jimmie and Kyle are goats for different reasons.

I don't think any sport has any one single "Greatest of All Time". Except maybe the Olympics.

And stats can be spun any way.

Richard Petty's seven championships aren't on the same level as Earnhardt's seven championships. Johnson's seven championships came in a much more competitive era, and in spite of that competition, Johnson put together a sustained string of dominance not only can be compared to but eclipses the New England Patriots.

A lot of people on here don't consider Jimmie Johnson a seven-time champion because of the playoffs. Although, they're spinning stats to make the case either for Jeff Gordon being the GOAT or Dale Earnhardt being the GOAT. In my books, Earnhardt won six championships, not seven.

No matter what happens, I think "history" is always going to say Dale Earnhardt was the greatest ever. Although many will disagree.

But that gives me an idea...
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Has it? He's got 10-15 years left in him.
Click to expand...

When he was out won by one of those guys by 30, and was out titled 7-1 since he came into cup when that driver hadn't even won a title as of Kyle's rookie year yes..it has. One of those years he even raced that driver head to head for a title with a better car, and still lost.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I'm looking strictly at NASCAR, and strength of field and such. Richard also got to race 60 times a year many years -- granted Kyle Busch, combined in the three series, averages more starts per season than Petty averaged. Today's XFINITY fields are probably tougher than many of Petty's Grand National wins. 200 wins is a huge accomplishment in NASCAR.

But your point really brings up my biggest gripe about how the media covers Kyle Busch. Whenever they talk about any other driver, they talk about their Cup wins. But, when Kyle Busch comes up, they merge stats. And they've been doing this for a long time. And the merging stats really doesn't take into account that no other driver in NASCAR goes for those XFINITY and Truck wins the way Kyle does. They make a few starts here and there, but most care about winning Cup races and Cup championships -- whereas Kyle Busch cares about a combined win total.

Kyle Busch is the only guy who ran full-time in XFINITY and close to full-time in Trucks for years. I know others have, but not to the same degree as Kyle Busch. Edwards and Keselowski come close though.

I have a lot of problems with this stat, and the way Kyle's wins are merged. Still, to deny that Kyle Busch is one of the greatest drivers of all time is denying reality. And he's still got 10-15 years to go... he might end up winning several championships still. He's probably going to get a second one this year.
Click to expand...

I think combining Kyle's total wins is a great idea for the media as it is an ongoing story and therefore can be milked every week. A lot of the news surrounding Nascar is negative and the current crop of young guns has not captured the public's attention so going with a story about Kyle that compares him with Richard Petty is good stuff even though it is a misrepresentation.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Jimmie and Kyle are goats for different reasons.

I don't think any sport has any one single "Greatest of All Time". Except maybe the Olympics.

And stats can be spun any way.

Richard Petty's seven championships aren't on the same level as Earnhardt's seven championships. Johnson's seven championships came in a much more competitive era, and in spite of that competition, Johnson put together a sustained string of dominance not only can be compared to but eclipses the New England Patriots.

A lot of people on here don't consider Jimmie Johnson a seven-time champion because of the playoffs. Although, they're spinning stats to make the case either for Jeff Gordon being the GOAT or Dale Earnhardt being the GOAT. In my books, Earnhardt won six championships, not seven.

No matter what happens, I think "history" is always going to say Dale Earnhardt was the greatest ever. Although many will disagree.

But that gives me an idea...
Click to expand...

But Jimmie not winning 7 under the old system is the only critique. He still has 10 crown jewel race wins, and 73 more.

This is Jinmie's era..not Jimmie and Kyle's
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Here's my one thing with win totals too. Should we consider the New England Patriots of 2007-2008 the greatest NFL team of all time for getting 18 wins even though they didn't win the Super Bowl?

The Chicago Bears have more wins than any other NFL franchise in history. Are they the greatest team in NFL history? Is Dallas the greatest team in NFL history because they have the highest win percentage? Should we count Green Bay and Baltimore's pre-NFL championships?

When considering MLB stats, should we pad one player's minor league and little league baseball stats with his MLB stats to make the argument that he's the Home Run King?

Kyle's the most talented driver in NASCAR history, IMO, and one of the greatest ever. As for the Kyle vs. Richard thing, it's different eras. Hell, I wouldn't put Petty's seven championships in the same category I'd put Earnhardt and Johnson's seven championships.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and this is a long way of explaining that while records and milestones are nice, acting like we can reliably rank performance across different eras is foolish. You can somewhat objectively compare against peers, and that's it. Somewhat.
 
jaqua19 said:
But Jimmie not winning 7 under the old system is the only critique. He still has 10 crown jewel race wins, and 73 more.

This is Jinmie's era..not Jimmie and Kyle's
Click to expand...
Also worthy of note...without the Chase, Jimmie would still have three championships (not considering the "they would have raced different" theory), and Kyle would have zero.
 
jaqua19 said:
Yes..yes they are.

And he's the only one talked about like that. I've also said Johnson's ability as a driver has been very underselled on TV as well.

But every era has had 2 all time greats. Tony's career flamed out. So they are trying to raise KB to be THAT 2nd guy. The only problem is it doesn't work because Johnson has been exclusively dominant.

It just goes back to marketing, like it does for every sport.
Click to expand...

Jimmie has been struggling while the Toyots's have been on a hot streak. Not much to talk about when your mid pack and they already got to talk about Jr who's there as well. Kyle's been up front all year so he going to get talked about. Jimmie starts running well again and honoring legends with every win we'll hear about it.
 
Trying to inflate and lump a drivers wins in the lower series to compare with Petty's wins in at that time the highest level of stock car racing? The driver that they, the press, are doing that for has never said publicly that I have heard anyway that it is a bogus comparison. Kyle not saying so to me means that he is actually going along with it. And of course some fans are going along with it. Long after the Kyle has left the building Petty is signing autographs for the fans and looking around at what he helped build.
 
One can hope that NBC is broadcasting the race. They might give him a crown when he reaches 201.
Nvm73_s-200x150.gif
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Jimmie and Kyle are goats for different reasons.

I don't think any sport has any one single "Greatest of All Time". Except maybe the Olympics.

And stats can be spun any way.

Richard Petty's seven championships aren't on the same level as Earnhardt's seven championships. Johnson's seven championships came in a much more competitive era, and in spite of that competition, Johnson put together a sustained string of dominance not only can be compared to but eclipses the New England Patriots.

A lot of people on here don't consider Jimmie Johnson a seven-time champion because of the playoffs. Although, they're spinning stats to make the case either for Jeff Gordon being the GOAT or Dale Earnhardt being the GOAT. In my books, Earnhardt won six championships, not seven.

No matter what happens, I think "history" is always going to say Dale Earnhardt was the greatest ever. Although many will disagree.

But that gives me an idea...
Click to expand...
Lol its time to finally let go of Mark Martin and the 1990 season. They ran an illegal part. They got caught. The lost points. They finished 2nd.
 
Kyle Busch's wins in Xfinity and trucks are defended even when he has the best equipment in the field.

Richard Petty is torn down from the pedestal because the competition wasn't as close as it is now.

If you use the above arguments simultaneously, that is extremely hypocritical. They are literally the same argument reversed! Either hold up Petty's record as it stands, or stop praising Kyle for winning lower series races. If you want to say a majority of Petty's wins are irrelevant, then Kyle is still only halfway to Petty's 81 wins in his Winston Cup years of competition.

Kyle is one of the best on the track today, and will be remembered as such. Just as David Pearson, Cale Yarborough, Bobby Allison, DW and others are. However, the greatest drivers at this point in time are Petty, Earnhardt and JJ.
 
Simple Fan said:
81? Winston Cup didn't start until 1972 and he already had 140 wins.
Click to expand...
It was 1971, granted the schedule was longer but in years following, the schedule was shorter then it is today so the math evens out.

Edit: this info is out of a book, not the interwebs so I'm going out on a limb and saying it's correct
 
gnomesayin said:
Agreed, and this is a long way of explaining that while records and milestones are nice, acting like we can reliably rank performance across different eras is foolish. You can somewhat objectively compare against peers, and that's it. Somewhat.
Click to expand...

For sure as between changes in cars, rules and the tracks it is folly to try and crown one driver the best ever. I will always be disappointed that Jimmie and Chad didn't have the opportunity to win 7 champs under a similar formula and had to rely upon the lottery for the last one.
 
gnomesayin said:
Agreed, and this is a long way of explaining that while records and milestones are nice, acting like we can reliably rank performance across different eras is foolish.
Click to expand...

Snowman said:
Kyle Busch's wins in Xfinity and trucks are defended even when he has the best equipment in the field.

Richard Petty is torn down from the pedestal because the competition wasn't as close as it is now.

If you use the above arguments simultaneously, that is extremely hypocritical. They are literally the same argument reversed! Either hold up Petty's record as it stands, or stop praising Kyle for winning lower series races. If you want to say a majority of Petty's wins are irrelevant, then Kyle is still only halfway to Petty's 81 wins in his Winston Cup years of competition.

Kyle is one of the best on the track today, and will be remembered as such. Just as David Pearson, Cale Yarborough, Bobby Allison, DW and others are. However, the greatest drivers at this point in time are Petty, Earnhardt and JJ.
Click to expand...

Last paragraph. Nail on the head.
 
FearThe4 said:
not really but the way Nascar is coving it these days and they are counting all his wins in all 3 series it would not shock me if they tried to make a big deal out of this when he does reach 200 and make Kyle the new King of Nascar.
Click to expand...
Y0QyL.gif


I should roast you.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
To be fair to Kyle, many of Richard Petty's 200 wins came in 100 lap races against 15 car fields.

WHEN Kyle gets to 201, XFINITY or not, he has to be considered as one of the greatest in history.
Click to expand...

Top 10 yes,
Top 5 in stretch, maybe.
 
Greg said:
I disagree i gave you a real average, not a cherry picked season
Click to expand...

I don't have anything against your average but the fact still remain s that he ran upwards to 60 races a year early in his career.
 
Simple Fan said:
Jimmie has been struggling while the Toyots's have been on a hot streak. Not much to talk about when your mid pack and they already got to talk about Jr who's there as well. Kyle's been up front all year so he going to get talked about. Jimmie starts running well again and honoring legends with every win we'll hear about it.
Click to expand...

Dude we can talk as long as you like.
Jimmie has 3 wins this year Kyle has 2.
Jimmie won the championship last year without a waiver. In fact as much crap as he is caught for simply winning, more like dominanting based an Nascars criteria he never needed a waiver, for any of them.

Oh yeah Jimmie aint running good, yada yada, he just wins more.

While we are at it:
Kyle will never match JJs win count or 7 titles.
The same can be said for Dale Earnhardts totals.
He might have a shot at the 60 wins of Pettys that meets your standards

Perhaps you should challenge those 60 wins of Pettys you recognize on an individual basis, who knows you might could find some deductions there as well. Get him down to the lows 50s, it might get you there.
 
Last edited:

"On August 3, 2015, while playing for the Mud Hens, Hessman hit his 433rdcareer home run – a grand slam – off Dustin McGowan of the Lehigh Valley IronPigs, setting a new minor leaguebaseball record for the most home runs in a career, surpassing the 78-year-old record set by Buzz Arlett of the Oakland Oaks in 1937."

Dammit, I still think ole Buzz was better
 
All the drivers wins in all the series should be totaled ....... just to see what the results are. Untitled races held during the week at fairgrounds should probably not be included in any of the drivers totals .... some of those are quite suspect IMO
 
Simple Fan said:
I don't have anything against your average but the fact still remain s that he ran upwards to 60 races a year early in his career.
Click to expand...
And I gave you an example of 2009 when Kyle ran 85...... you evidently don't see the correlation...... Richard ran 60...... Kyle ran 85..... and yet you are bitching about Richard running so many........
 
Greg said:
In fact as much crap as he is caught for simply winning, more like dominanting based an Nascars criteria he never needed a waiver, for any of them.
Click to expand...
That's right, talent and nous got him those wins.

....or was it Knaus?
sarcastic.gif
 
Last edited:
kymartin6 said:
And I gave you an example of 2009 when Kyle ran 85...... you evidently don't see the correlation...... Richard ran 60...... Kyle ran 85..... and yet you are bitching about Richard running so many........
Click to expand...

No I do see the correlation, that's why I made the point of no driver gets 200 without running lower series today.
 
What an era. Jimmie Johnson trying to get #8, and Kyle chasing 200 NASCAR series wins.

please try to find ways to enjoy what is happening even if you like other drivers. This is incredible.
 
LewTheShoe said:
If you want to believe all wins count and can be added together, the target to shoot for is Dick Trickle, with over 1,200 wins. Steve Kinser had 577 wins, counting only his top series elite level races. Richie Evans had more than 480 wins. Fred Rahmer 420. Jerry Cook 342.

Please note that all of these - and many more I could name - are above the 200 mark. The reason Petty's 200 wins is a revered achievement is that they all are Cup wins, and Cup wins are more special than most.
Click to expand...
Larry Phillips says "don't forget about me"
 
kymartin6 said:
Okay........... :idunno:
Click to expand...

I don't understand what's to shrug about. We pretty much agree, Kyle runs alot of races therefore he's on course to reach 200. Petty also had to run alot of races to get to 200 and he did most of it before they went to a condensed schedule like they did after 1971.
 
Simple Fan said:
I don't understand what's to shrug about. We pretty much agree, Kyle runs alot of races therefore he's on course to reach 200. Petty also had to run alot of races to get to 200 and he did most of it before they went to a condensed schedule like they did after 1971.
Click to expand...
It's all good........;)
 
BobbyFord said:
Petty's 200 wins didn't come against the steady level of competition we have today.
http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/sto...-future-ahead-of-him-sprint-cup-series-040616

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nascar-driver-or-nascars-greatest-driver-ever

https://beyondtheflag.com/2016/03/15/nascar-like-it-or-not-kyle-busch-is-a-nascar-legend/
Click to expand...

Oh this again...

Nobody is trying to discredit Kyle, but lets be real. No one gives a crap about all of his Xfinity and Truck wins, he's won 40 races and thats a hell of an accomplishment. Especially in this era of racing where the field is closer. Its like comparing Jordan's six championships to Bill Russell's eleven, at the end of the day both are champions and greats in their respected ages. Same with Kyle Busch and Richard Petty.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom