Las Vegas test 1/31-2/1

StandOnIt said:
Tell me how Nascar earned a quarter of a billion dollars this last year? saving the children? attracting the younger fan? Oh I know removing seats? plate racing?
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You’re the Nascar financial guru so I will defer to your wisdom. You brought up the truck series
 
You guys are the experts anyway so if you think the truck series has boffo ratings and attendance I am just peachy with it.
 
IanMcVittie said:
You guys are the experts anyway so if you think the truck series has boffo ratings and attendance I am just peachy with it.
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Like any business if it isn't making money it would be gone. Some seem to have a problem with that. Maybe they had a failed one or something, I can't see the reason for the concern if ya can call it that.
 
StandOnIt said:
Like any business if it isn't making money it would be gone. Some seem to have a problem with that. Maybe they had a failed one or something, I can't see the reason for the concern if ya can call it that.
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IDK where anyone has expressed concern over the truck series do you? You were talking about how great it was and I said if it was that great you would think more people would partake of it.
 
Uh no, I said the cup cars were going to be a faster version of the trucks, and if you haven't watched any they were really good races.
 
IanMcVittie said:
IDK where anyone has expressed concern over the truck series do you? You were talking about how great it was and I said if it was that great you would think more people would partake of it. You started moving goalposts and got defensive. Situation normal as far as I can see.
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About as insane as saying to a hockey fan, if hockey is so great why don't more people watch it. I bet that would go over well on a hockey board.:cuckoo:
 
StandOnIt said:
Uh no, I said the cup cars were going to be a faster version of the trucks, and if you haven't watched any they were really good races.
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“For the most part those were some of the best races of the weekend, they had the closest finishes and hardest racing”

Actually this is what you said.
 
StandOnIt said:
About as insane as saying to a hockey fan, if hockey is so great why don't more people watch it. I bet that would go over well on a hockey board.:cuckoo:
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If someone said that the ECHL was some of the best hockey played on any given weekend it would be fair to ask why more people didn’t watch it. Stop digging!
 
StandOnIt said:
after he had his little temper tante, like he does almost every week while in the car at something or somebody, partial sanity returned. :p

Busch said this week: Races will be “more of a mental game, a lot more of a chess match, thinking how you make moves, how daring you’ll be.” I’m sorry, is that not also what we view as a driver’s skill? I certainly have. Making the decision to put your car in a certain place on the track and betting the outcome will be a good one for you seems to me to be a very important part of being a successful driver. Like any rules package that has ever been used in any motorsports, there will be drivers who excel at it and some who fail. Current drivers are simply worried what has proved successful in the past may not work in the future. And you can’t blame them.
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I'm going to disagree with Jim on this. I don't really consider that 'driver skill' in the typical sense. I think that's much more strategy and finesse that you see at Daytona and Talladega already rather than the car control - steering, braking, throttle inputs - definition. Knowing where and how to time draft runs isn't what one usually thinks of when talking about wheeling a stock car, IMO.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I'm going to disagree with Jim on this. I don't really consider that 'driver skill' in the typical sense. I think that's much more strategy and finesse that you see at Daytona and Talladega already rather than the car control - steering, braking, throttle inputs - definition. Knowing where and how to time draft runs isn't what one usually thinks of when talking about wheeling a stock car, IMO.
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so you don't think blocking, moving, rubbing, getting a run on a driver is stock car racing? I disagree. I do see your point though. Strategy is going to play a part too I would think, Johnson said that the setup and adjustments make a difference. Sr was a master of moving a car not wrecking them on the last lap. After watching the Rolex and Bathurst this weekend with all of the cars awfull even in performance, I saw some really good moves to pass. I expect to see the same in cup. It is going to take skill to pass.
 
StandOnIt said:
so you don't think blocking, moving, rubbing, getting a run on a driver is stock car racing? I disagree. I do see your point though. Strategy is going to play a part too I would think, Johnson said that the setup and adjustments make a difference.
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I think it leaves a lot to be desired from the skill sets previously required. I don't think there will suddenly be beating and banging on 1.5s because aero is still a thing, but I do think the 'chess match' concept is going to be very real. It just depends on what a particular viewer wants to see. If you already like Daytona and Talladega I think you'll like more of the rest of the season now. They are two very different styles of racing with two polarized sects of supporters, it seems.

I'm not sure how tire management will factor in because it sounds like midcorner speeds are still as high or higher than they were before. My hope is that they won't have to protect against that with harder tires with it taking at least half a run for the tires to start to go away.
 
I didn't see any Plate type racing, but it's hard to tell with only 12 or 13 cars. A better ally would be Gluck, he has been against the packages from the first and has put his slant on every article. He brings up some points, but like the rest of us he hasn't seen the real thing and what will progress as the season goes on.I saw 4 wide at Vegas going thru the chute. I havn't ever seen that in cup, trucks yeah but not cup cars. Sorry anybody saying it doesn't take nerve to do that is mistaken IMO.

https://jeffgluck.com/nascar-test-2019-rules-package/
 
Formerjackman said:
NASCAR has been chasing a package that is enticing enough to get new people and those that have strayed away the last few years back in the game. Last year's package was an attempt to do that, and as much as SOME of you liked it, it is quite apparent that at least as many did not, and it certainly did not dent the slide in viewership and attendance. Personally, I couldn't get ANYBODY to watch last year's product, I could barely watch it myself. The 2019 package is just another crack at it. It may work, and it may not., but NASCAR obviously feels (as do I) that the status quo is just not going to cut it. I would also expect that NASCAR would like as much real world data as possible before they finalize the specs on the next generation car. They tried going one way, now they are trying to go another. The answer, if there is one, may lay beyond what is being tried, or somewhere in the middle. You mentioned the NFL. As popular as the NFL is, they make changes EVERY YEAR, to the point that I barely recognize the game I grew up with. I grew up in an era of punishing ground games and bone crushing defenses. Now, football is like a video game. I don't proclaim to know how successful (if at all) the 2019 package will be, but I applaud NASCAR for trying SOMETHING, and I know for damn sure you don't learn anything by just talking about it. Maybe when its all said and done, it will prove that 2018 WAS the right answer, as much as I cringe at the thought. It's kind of like the Roval experiment. I was against it from the start, and STILL think it was a hot mess, the road course version of a restrictor plate race, BUT, many of you loved it, and in the end, I guess that is all that matters.
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Fair post. However, the NFL analogy doesn't work. The better parallel would be set up philosophies changing as offenses have changed in the NFL. You are right about that. Give the teams more adjustability. I agree about the Roval. I didn't think it was as awesome as some, but as you said, many loved it so I am good.
 
Can't wait to participate in this year's "Rate the Super Bowl" poll..... :sarcasm:
 
They had the chicane wrong, and they fixed it, the inside was a green track but they had a bit of side by side passing anyway. . All things considered, The Roval wasn't bad I didn't think for the first race. Better than yet another race at Charlotte on the oval.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I think it leaves a lot to be desired from the skill sets previously required. I don't think there will suddenly be beating and banging on 1.5s because aero is still a thing, but I do think the 'chess match' concept is going to be very real. It just depends on what a particular viewer wants to see. If you already like Daytona and Talladega I think you'll like more of the rest of the season now. They are two very different styles of racing with two polarized sects of supporters, it seems.

I'm not sure how tire management will factor in because it sounds like midcorner speeds are still as high or higher than they were before. My hope is that they won't have to protect against that with harder tires with it taking at least half a run for the tires to start to go away.
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The bolded does not seem to resonate with everyone. Which is amazing to me. 1.5 style is about to get plastic surgery to the point of non-recognition.
 
What are the metrics for success?

New fans?
New fans of the proper demographic (spend money on sponsored products, youth, etc)?
TV Ratings?
Fans at the track?
Top 20 cars behind the leader finish within 8 seconds of the winner?
Number of Lead changes?
Increase in car contact?
Game 7 moments?

It gets back to what makes great racing — so many opinions are out there AND IN HERE; which leads to — how does NASCAR satisfy a mob of fans with divergent opinions?

In formal structures you just don’t submit recommendations (change) — you put forward a package that includes Background, the Why, and Justification, as well as other support. For technical pubs and/or procedures it is even more dedicated process to ensure what you propose does not have perilous unintended consequences or is otherwise just plain unsafe or destructive.

I would like to see NASCAR’s homework on that — because Probst the VP of Innovation & Racing Development didn’t sound too impressive in beating back the caveman driver who spoke his mind.

If the change was well thought out, it would be fairly easy to articulate NASCAR’s position without throwing out a threat (which was later denied to be a threat).

Very unimpressive — I don’t have confidence in NASCAR. But as a race fan I will simply watch and enjoy the spectacle of NASCAR as a pastime.
 
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Ventisca said:
In formal structures you just don’t submit recommendations (change) — you put forward a package that includes Background, the Why, and Justification, as well as other support. For technical pubs and/or procedures it is even more dedicated process to ensure what you propose does not have perilous unintended consequences or is otherwise just plain unsafe or destructive.

I would like to see NASCAR’s homework on that — because Probst the VP of Innovation & Racing Development didn’t sound too impressive in beating back the caveman driver who spoke his mind.

If the change was well thought out, it would be fairly easy to articulate NASCAR’s position without throwing out a threat (which was later denied to be a threat).

Very unimpressive — I don’t have confidence in NASCAR. But as a race fan I will simply watch and enjoy the spectacle of NASCAR as a pastime.
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They have been running a similar package in the Xfinity year before last at Indycar, they ran I believe four races in Xfinity last year on differing tracks, and the All Star race in the cup series. So this is the third year. If you don't think that is enough that is your opinion. I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion.
 
StandOnIt said:
They have been running a similar package in the Xfinity year before last at Indycar, they ran I believe four races in Xfinity last year on differing tracks, and the All Star race in the cup series. So this is the third year. If you don't think that is enough that is your opinion. I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion.
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Good point.

I don’t believe that is the same progression between the series, although it could be following a similar approach. I have difficulty believing the technical aspects of the Cup changes are as relatable to what Xfinity has gone thru, but that would be a rational path.

But, I’m not at any of the NASCAR meetings. However, I do know technical briefings, hot washes, and operationalizing recommendations — Probst does not inspire confidence. IMHO

I’m looking forward to the new season. I really liked last season. Perhaps the reality is that NASCAR is trying to chase a rules package to build a fan base (lifeblood of the sport) that may be incompatible to good racing in the eyes of many of its current fans.
 
Nascar has said many many times it is trying to bring about closer racing.(that is the goal of this package) That is about as plain as it can get. They have always experimented in the lower series, they are using flange fit bodies and nobody knows the difference but the teams are liking the toughness. Xfinity cars were used with a restrictor plate and the same ducts as the cup cars. In addition to the above races and testing there were I believe three cup tire tests with the package and wheel force cars were used to collect data for the teams. Of course that won't be enough for some who don't want to see them try anything differently, but it's a far cry for some who are trying to portray the story of Nascar going off half ****ed IMO. I think there are going to be many changes soon. That was said according to Roger Penske, and I don't see him having any reason to lie.
 
The devil is in those technical details and differences between the Xfinity cars and the Cup cars; aside from the differences in top drivers and crew chiefs in Cup than Xfinity, which could yield different racing even if performed in identical cars.

I understand they are trying to follow a similar path, but it does not mean their progression is comparable or will yield the same result in overall effect or impact for the desired outcome.

NASCAR is essentially shaping the racing on belief that it will be more entertaining and therefore draw more fans/customers. While that may be intuitive to a business — to many current racing fans it may be seen as undesirable racing.

But to actually achieve NASCAR’s desired outcome, it becomes more of a Rube Goldberg contraption
where you re-develop or modify, and implement components
run a detuned engine with tapered spacer
Goodyear matches their formula with the car formula for each track
Then that package is run by the crew chief and driver to achieve NASCAR’s intended race characteristics that are pleasing to the fans
Which then may or may not achieve NASCAR’s overall goal of bringing more fans to the races (track, TV, streaming, etc).

Absolutely convoluted — but who knows, it may be essential to NASCAR’s future success.

As for the aspiration of close racing — that is pretty common in many forms of competition unless you are a competitor or team fan that wants to win by the largest drama-free margin. I like close racing when it is earned, not baked into the racing. Car prep, driver and crew execution, and occasional luck to compete in the closing laps are more meaningful than running in a large group up front the entire event.

Definitely not organic racing, like two drivers who unexpectedly pull up next to each other, and race on the green light — but no race series is. I guess it is a matter of degree...
 
Ventisca said:
What are the metrics for success?

New fans?
New fans of the proper demographic (spend money on sponsored products, youth, etc)?
TV Ratings?
Fans at the track?
Top 20 cars behind the leader finish within 8 seconds of the winner?
Number of Lead changes?
Increase in car contact?
Game 7 moments?

It gets back to what makes great racing — so many opinions are out there AND IN HERE; which leads to — how does NASCAR satisfy a mob of fans with divergent opinions?

In formal structures you just don’t submit recommendations (change) — you put forward a package that includes Background, the Why, and Justification, as well as other support. For technical pubs and/or procedures it is even more dedicated process to ensure what you propose does not have perilous unintended consequences or is otherwise just plain unsafe or destructive.

I would like to see NASCAR’s homework on that — because Probst the VP of Innovation & Racing Development didn’t sound too impressive in beating back the caveman driver who spoke his mind.

If the change was well thought out, it would be fairly easy to articulate NASCAR’s position without throwing out a threat (which was later denied to be a threat).

Very unimpressive — I don’t have confidence in NASCAR. But as a race fan I will simply watch and enjoy the spectacle of NASCAR as a pastime.
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A lot of NASCAR’s problems would begin to subside if one thing happened. That thing would be attracting fans in the correct demographic so even though Nascar is likely unaware of this truth it is what’s needed.

It is obvious that Nascar did not do due diligence prior to implementing this plan. Probst seems out of his depth and should never be permitted to communicate with the press.

It is certainly possible this Talladega light style of racing could be popular with the correct demo but I have reservations. Having them believe that the cars running closer together actually means the competition is closer is paramount.

Nothing Nascar has done in the last half dozen years has improved viewership at home or in person. In fact the initiatives put forth have likely exacerbated the problem! The 2019 rules will likely turn off far more people then what it adds and the proof will be available for all to see.

I am looking forward to hearing NASCAR’s spin on things as they will tout things like visits to NASCAR’s app and social interactions as markers that matter.
 
StandOnIt said:
Nascar has said many many times it is trying to bring about closer racing.(that is the goal of this package) That is about as plain as it can get. They have always experimented in the lower series, they are using flange fit bodies and nobody knows the difference but the teams are liking the toughness. Xfinity cars were used with a restrictor plate and the same ducts as the cup cars. In addition to the above races and testing there were I believe three cup tire tests with the package and wheel force cars were used to collect data for the teams. Of course that won't be enough for some who don't want to see them try anything differently, but it's a far cry for some who are trying to portray the story of Nascar going off half ****ed IMO. I think there are going to be many changes soon. That was said according to Roger Penske, and I don't see him having any reason to lie.
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Do you think these changes will attract a younger demographic as well as increasing the overall audience? Making these changes and maintaining the status quo cannot be considered a success
 
Ventisca said:
The devil is in those technical details and differences between the Xfinity cars and the Cup cars; aside from the differences in top drivers and crew chiefs in Cup than Xfinity, which could yield different racing even if performed in identical cars.

I understand they are trying to follow a similar path, but it does not mean their progression is comparable or will yield the same result in overall effect or impact for the desired outcome.

NASCAR is essentially shaping the racing on belief that it will be more entertaining and therefore draw more fans/customers. While that may be intuitive to a business — to many current racing fans it may be seen as undesirable racing.

But to actually achieve NASCAR’s desired outcome, it becomes more of a Rube Goldberg contraption
where you re-develop or modify, and implement components
run a detuned engine with tapered spacer
Goodyear matches their formula with the car formula for each track
Then that package is run by the crew chief and driver to achieve NASCAR’s intended race characteristics that are pleasing to the fans
Which then may or may not achieve NASCAR’s overall goal of bringing more fans to the races (track, TV, streaming, etc).

Absolutely convoluted — but who knows, it may be essential to NASCAR’s future success.

As for the aspiration of close racing — that is pretty common in many forms of competition unless you are a competitor or team fan that wants to win by the largest drama-free margin. I like close racing when it is earned, not baked into the racing. Car prep, driver and crew execution, and occasional luck to compete in the closing laps are more meaningful than running in a large group up front the entire event.

Definitely not organic racing, like two drivers who unexpectedly pull up next to each other, and race on the green light — but no race series is. I guess it is a matter of degree...
Click to expand...

The 2019 rules seem like something I would have enjoyed as a child where we often suspended reality and pretended.
 
Ventisca said:
What are the metrics for success?

New fans?
New fans of the proper demographic (spend money on sponsored products, youth, etc)?
TV Ratings?
Fans at the track?
Top 20 cars behind the leader finish within 8 seconds of the winner?
Number of Lead changes?
Increase in car contact?
Game 7 moments?

It gets back to what makes great racing — so many opinions are out there AND IN HERE; which leads to — how does NASCAR satisfy a mob of fans with divergent opinions?

In formal structures you just don’t submit recommendations (change) — you put forward a package that includes Background, the Why, and Justification, as well as other support. For technical pubs and/or procedures it is even more dedicated process to ensure what you propose does not have perilous unintended consequences or is otherwise just plain unsafe or destructive.

I would like to see NASCAR’s homework on that — because Probst the VP of Innovation & Racing Development didn’t sound too impressive in beating back the caveman driver who spoke his mind.

If the change was well thought out, it would be fairly easy to articulate NASCAR’s position without throwing out a threat (which was later denied to be a threat).

Very unimpressive — I don’t have confidence in NASCAR. But as a race fan I will simply watch and enjoy the spectacle of NASCAR as a pastime.
Click to expand...

I think that this captures my concerns about changes in NASCAR. There is no operational definition for "great racing." It's the "you know it when you see it" bull****. Having said that, you don't know that this new package won't deliver "great racing" because there is no operational definition anymore that you don't know if it will. Therefore, I'm choosing to see what happens. If the package gets some of those who have walked away, great. If not, things won't be worse than they are IMO. This is happening, so why not just wait and see?

As for Probst......I don't know that it is a good look for NASCAR when the emphasis has been on driver personalities since the COT. With this emphasis, you get Jimmie, and you get Kyle. I have never been a fan of this emphasis, but NASCAR didn't ask me. What is Mr. Probst asking of the drivers? The party line publicly I guess. In this sense, Jimmie is the standard apparently, and then we will bitch about that as we always have.

As for the change being well thought out? I think the message is that "well thought out" leads to engineers figuring it out, and more of the same, I guess. NASCAR will have to be prepared to change again to stay ahead of the engineers. I can't see this cat and mouse stuff ending unless NASCAR goes totally spec which I think things will end up if this doesn't turn around. At that point, I will be done. I hate spec racing in any form, and I won't pay money to watch it. I am pretty sure that my manufacturer feels the same, so I don't think I will be conflicted.

My solution? Stay positive, and hope for the best. If nothing else, it will be intriguing to see what happens.
 
Revman said:
I think that this captures my concerns about changes in NASCAR. There is no operational definition for "great racing." It's the "you know it when you see it" bull****. Having said that, you don't know that this new package won't deliver "great racing" because there is no operational definition anymore that you don't know if it will. Therefore, I'm choosing to see what happens. If the package gets some of those who have walked away, great. If not, things won't be worse than they are IMO. This is happening, so why not just wait and see?

As for Probst......I don't know that it is a good look for NASCAR when the emphasis has been on driver personalities since the COT. With this emphasis, you get Jimmie, and you get Kyle. I have never been a fan of this emphasis, but NASCAR didn't ask me. What is Mr. Probst asking of the drivers? The party line publicly I guess. In this sense, Jimmie is the standard apparently, and then we will bitch about that as we always have.

As for the change being well thought out? I think the message is that "well thought out" leads to engineers figuring it out, and more of the same, I guess. NASCAR will have to be prepared to change again to stay ahead of the engineers. I can't see this cat and mouse stuff ending unless NASCAR goes totally spec which I think things will end up if this doesn't turn around. At that point, I will be done. I hate spec racing in any form, and I won't pay money to watch it. I am pretty sure that my manufacturer feels the same, so I don't think I will be conflicted.

My solution? Stay positive, and hope for the best. If nothing else, it will be intriguing to see what happens.
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IMO Nascar is way past the point of trying to figure out what good racing is and instead needs to find a product that people wish to consume. If the new rules move the needle that is great but if not you likely leave the series in worse condition.

Clearly Nascar has been shifting the series further away from sport and more into the entertainment realm. Obviously there are some fans in favor of that model while others see the future as “very grim” if that path is continued.

What was funny was no one other than a rabid fan of Nascar would have known what he said. What was sad was no one other than a rabid fan of Nascar would have known what he said. Radio silence on Kyle’s remarks from the MSM.
 
IanMcVittie said:
The 2019 rules seem like something I would have enjoyed as a child where we often suspended reality and pretended.
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Yup.

NASCAR is making a weekly serial, and it is up to Probst, VP of "Entertainment" (Innovation and Racing Development), to stage the racing for the cameras. NASCAR has to crowd the cars, get them charging in a mob where contact is likely and drama is all but guaranteed. Look to modern movie making for developing the immersive experience with greater emphasis on targeting a new generation of fans and enhancing NASCAR appeal to them.

The social media hype will attempt to pull as many people in to participate in the experience to keep the buzz going throughout the week. Link it to the Video Gaming experience and get more nerds iRacing to draw them into live NASCAR racing.

NASCAR is seeking a generational shift. Those of us in the current fan generation are not enough. NASCAR is sending a messenger like Probst to tell us things are gonna change, and as NASCAR updates its product by chasing whatever they're calling the new generation/s of consumer, the old generation become less relevant.

Fine.

However, when they try to tell us old stubborn guys that KyBu has to get used to eating ****-sandwiches when he's in front of the camera -- many of us call BS.

If I were trying to fix something and I've got Jimmie being Jimmie, Brad painfully choosing his words, and KyBu succinctly putting his thoughts into simple straight forward language -- GIVE ME KYBU ALL DAY. (Oh that was painful...) :D

===

Probst said. “I think they’re going to find it will be very entertaining.”
 
Ventisca said:
However, when they try to tell us old stubborn guys that KyBu has to get used to eating sh!t-sandwiches when he's in front of the camera -- many of us call BS.
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If some of you owned a bakery and your counter person told the customers "these cupcakes taste like sheet" how long would they have a job? In 2003 I fired a First Officer that had been with me for several years and was a top notch one. But because when he Spouted off one time too many about the Company rules he was deemed to be a liability. He lost his next two jobs for the same reason and was last seen blaming everyone but himself
 
Johali said:
If some of you owned a bakery and your counter person told the customers "these cupcakes taste like sheet" how long would they have a job? In 2003 I fired a First Officer that had been with me for several years and was a top notch one. But because when he Spouted off one time too many about the Company rules he was deemed to be a liability. He lost his next two jobs for the same reason and was last seen blaming everyone but himself
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What if your customers tell you the cupcakes taste like sheet and you keep changing the flavor and texture of the sheet? How many people are going to search for a more palatable snack treat?
 
Johali said:
If some of you owned a bakery and your counter person told the customers "these cupcakes taste like sheet" how long would they have a job? In 2003 I fired a First Officer that had been with me for several years and was a top notch one. But because when he Spouted off one time too many about the Company rules he was deemed to be a liability. He lost his next two jobs for the same reason and was last seen blaming everyone but himself
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I understand, but

NASCAR isn't a bakery. They let the drivers hit each other on and off the track. They market the hype and drama of violent collisions, passionate drivers and crew in the heat of racing (and immediately afterward), have video of driver legends of the past giving opinions similar to KyBu, etc.

KyBu's criticism was informed (he was actually the one driving the new formula), measured, and appropriate for the "Test" interview. The threat issued by Probst was walked back.
 
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Ventisca said:
I understand, but

NASCAR isn't a bakery. They let the drivers hit each other on and off the track. They market the hype and drama of violent collisions, passionate drivers and crew in the heat of racing (and immediately afterward), have video of driver legends of the past giving opinions similar to KyBu, etc.

KyBu's criticism was informed (he was actually the one driving the new formula) and measured. The threat issued by Probst was walked back.
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Nascar isn't a bakery, the Xfinity cars aren't cup cars..where do ya come up with this stuff. I thought Probst said in a nice way. Shut up fool. :p
 
Johali said:
If some of you owned a bakery and your counter person told the customers "these cupcakes taste like sheet" how long would they have a job? In 2003 I fired a First Officer that had been with me for several years and was a top notch one. But because when he Spouted off one time too many about the Company rules he was deemed to be a liability. He lost his next two jobs for the same reason and was last seen blaming everyone but himself
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There is another saying that comes to mind. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Kryle is entirely free to go find somewhere else to race, where all of the cars are perfect, and every rule is one he agrees with. La La La.
 
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