lets fix nascar,because they are to dumb to do it.

Nascar needs more scantily clad trophy queens.
More bikini events or whatever excuse is needed to give wimmins in bikinis free admission to the races.
They could make rainy days more tolerable by doing a best tee shirt contest during the down time.

Fasts cars, hawt wimmins, and rock roll isn't just a catchy phrase it has a real quality of life message that needs to be honoured
 
Revman said:
How does it help the series that puts money in these guys' pockets to **** talk the competition? Come watch this....it sucks. SMDH.
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If you don't like criticism, DO something about it. The whole new car went forward with VERY LITTLE input from the drivers until it was really too late to make major changes, so why does it seem to surprise you that they have a lot of issues with it? Just like Dale Jr. keeps saying, "Who is the person that looked at our races and said what we need is bigger stickier tires and gigantic brakes?"
 
Formerjackman said:
If you don't like criticism, DO something about it. The whole new car went forward with VERY LITTLE input from the drivers until it was really too late to make major changes, so why does it seem to surprise you that they have a lot of issues with it? Just like Dale Jr. keeps saying, "Who is the person that looked at our races and said what we need is bigger stickier tires and gigantic brakes?"
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You have no info on how much driver input was asked for. What is the problem with wider tires and better brakes?
 
^The cars are too easy to drive. I like the new car except for the wider tires and, dare I say, single lug nut. The engine is a different issue entirely.
 
I see a number of cars every race that spin out all by themselves. When they show the driver most of them are sawing at the wheel compared to at the height of the old car it looked like they were out for a Sunday drive. I'm sure the teams will make them easier to drive as time goes on, but there are at least two or three a race that spin without anybody touching them. Count the ones that lose the rear or front end and get into somebody there are more than that. I bet we see more when it gets hot.
 
StandOnIt said:
You have no info on how much driver input was asked for. What is the problem with wider tires and better brakes?
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If you are trying to make lap time, nothing. If you are trying to put on an entertaining race with near spec cars, EVERYTHING. Between the tires, the brakes and the shifting, there is almost no penalty for overdriving the car or running too hard, and you end up with 30 cars all running the exact same speed, accomplishing nothing.
 
Formerjackman said:
If you are trying to make lap time, nothing. If you are trying to put on an entertaining race with near spec cars, EVERYTHING. Between the tires, the brakes and the shifting, there is almost no penalty for overdriving the car or running too hard, and you end up with 30 cars all running the exact same speed, accomplishing nothing.
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You got that part right. Nascar has designed it to be that way. Very close racing. The days of Cale winning by lapping the field twice are long gone.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Did no one else watch IROC? Those were spec cars that put on good racing.
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IROC is considered the worst racing around here by many. I have posted some of the races to prove that it was really good racing only to be told why then isn't it still around? The answer was scheduling and the lack of series sponsors after it ran from 74 - 06. :idunno:
 
StandOnIt said:
You got that part right. Nascar has designed it to be that way. Very close racing. The days of Cale winning by lapping the field twice are long gone.
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At least when Cale lapped the field twice, he had to pass about 80 cars to do it. I'd rather watch THAT than a parade.
 
Formerjackman said:
If you don't like criticism, DO something about it. The whole new car went forward with VERY LITTLE input from the drivers until it was really too late to make major changes, so why does it seem to surprise you that they have a lot of issues with it? Just like Dale Jr. keeps saying, "Who is the person that looked at our races and said what we need is bigger stickier tires and gigantic brakes?"
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Handle it internally. Period.
 
Revman said:
Handle it internally. Period.
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I'm sure both of them have been told in private and neither of them liked what they heard. Bell has even said publicly about higher HP the yota brass have told him no, no, no. The reddits have picked up on it and are blaming the Yotas for not getting their fandom more HP. I think he picked up some bad habits from Kyle. Elliott had to throw his two cents in there and rile up some more that think more HP is going to cure their ills. Both of them act like a couple of primadonnas.. All is well in Nascar land. lol
 
What’s there to fix? The Next Gen is safer and racier than ever, the teams and drivers more talented than ever (except for when they are being mean to NASCAR), the attendance and ratings are massive. It’s all good in the ‘hood.
 
Kind of like the tree that falls in the forest. If nobody is there to hear it, did it make a sound? In the old days, respected drivers could go to Bill Jr. or Bill Sr. and have a nice quiet private chat and get things done. That doesn't seem to work in modern NASCAR. Now you have to call them out publicly to have any hope of getting some traction. My personal policy has generally been that I will go behind the scenes once, probably twice to deliver my message. If you blow it off, the next time, your ass is getting called out.
 
Formerjackman said:
Kind of like the tree that falls in the forest. If nobody is there to hear it, did it make a sound? In the old days, respected drivers could go to Bill Jr. or Bill Sr. and have a nice quiet private chat and get things done. That doesn't seem to work in modern NASCAR. Now you have to call them out publicly to have any hope of getting some traction. My personal policy has generally been that I will go behind the scenes once, probably twice to deliver my message. If you blow it off, the next time, your ass is getting called out.
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Bill Sr. also told them that NASCAR would go on without them, so ya know, kind of not the big ball portrait you describe. Working the power of public perception is a technique used by the powerless. That gets you nothing but disrespect IMO.
 
StandOnIt said:
I'm sure both of them have been told in private and neither of them liked what they heard. Bell has even said publicly about higher HP the yota brass have told him no, no, no. The reddits have picked up on it and are blaming the Yotas for not getting their fandom more HP. I think he picked up some bad habits from Kyle. Elliott had to throw his two cents in there and rile up some more that think more HP is going to cure their ills. Both of them act like a couple of primadonnas.. All is well in Nascar land. lol
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Yeah, but paint the whole picture.....Why do you think he was told no? The OEMs are trying to work together too. Let us not forget that WE hate the spec motor in trucks, and were less that thrilled with the spec-ness of the Next Gen. WE would love nothing more than to go wild in Costa Mesa, but you know as well as WE do what that would do to the series.
 
Formerjackman said:
Kind of like the tree that falls in the forest. If nobody is there to hear it, did it make a sound? In the old days, respected drivers could go to Bill Jr. or Bill Sr. and have a nice quiet private chat and get things done. That doesn't seem to work in modern NASCAR. Now you have to call them out publicly to have any hope of getting some traction. My personal policy has generally been that I will go behind the scenes once, probably twice to deliver my message. If you blow it off, the next time, your ass is getting called out.
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Depends on your perspective I guess.

“I would definitely tell you that the communication is better than it’s ever been,” Harvick said. “We’ve had productive meetings, and I think everybody wants to be able to have the cars do different things and have a different style of racing.

“It needs to be different. I don’t know what that means. But I can tell you, there is more dialogue over the course of the year than there has been in the past. I don’t know what that dialogue is — I’m not on the team side, but I am on the driver side — and I know the dialogue and conversations we have with NASCAR is probably more than I’ve probably had in 15 years.
 
The drivers and the fans (those who watch every week, not just Daytona and Talladega) want more horsepower and less downforce.

NASCAR wants pack racing. It's been clear for some time, first with NA18D, and now this.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The drivers and the fans (those who watch every week, not just Daytona and Talladega) want more horsepower and less downforce.

NASCAR wants pack racing. It's been clear for some time, first with NA18D, and now this.
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The drivers don’t want pack racing because they lack the patience to do it well. Running over each other and throwing blocks is just insanity. We saw on Sunday that pack racing in the Gen 7 car can be good. Lines were moving and guys had to position themselves to make moves.

NASCAR needs to get rid of this win and you’re in insanity so drivers don’t drive like maniacs to have a shot at the championship.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The drivers don’t want pack racing because they lack the patience to do it well. Running over each other and throwing blocks is just insanity. We saw on Sunday that pack racing in the Gen 7 car can be good. Lines were moving and guys had to position themselves to make moves.

NASCAR needs to get rid of this win and you’re in insanity so drivers don’t drive like maniacs to have a shot at the championship.
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Pack racing goes against the core principles of racing though.

There's no strategy to it in terms of managing equipment. There's no adjusting lines to find the right lane for the handling of your car. It doesn't matter if the handling goes away. There's nothing you can do to gain a tenth of a second.

You can't get too far ahead? What a ****** crock.

There's some skill required to it and I'll concede that. The only good thing about it is that it gives drivers who don't normally have a shot to win a legitimate chance.

Pack racing was a thrilling show in the 2000s. It's not even that thrilling anymore.

Personally, I like the superspeedway races of the 90s the most when it comes to this genre of racing.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Pack racing goes against the core principles of racing though.

There's no strategy to it in terms of managing equipment. There's no adjusting lines to find the right lane for the handling of your car. It doesn't matter if the handling goes away. There's nothing you can do to gain a tenth of a second.

You can't get too far ahead? What a ****** crock.

There's some skill required to it and I'll concede that. The only good thing about it is that it gives drivers who don't normally have a shot to win a legitimate chance.

Pack racing was a thrilling show in the 2000s. It's not even that thrilling anymore.

Personally, I like the superspeedway races of the 90s the most when it comes to this genre of racing.
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Pack racing is a form of racing though, it’s just different from short tracks and road courses. You’re still strategizing and putting yourself in a position to be the first one to complete a prescribed distance. Plate racing is more of a mental game that requires positioning yourself in the right lane and in position to catch the right run. Get in the wrong lane? Going to the back. Don’t move at the right time? You’re stuck. You have to think ahead and put yourself in position to win. Your car doesn’t handle well down low and the dominant lane is down there? Talk to your crew and make adjustments.

The idea that plate racing violates “core principles of racing” is ludicrous. The core principle of automotive racing is that you utilize your equipment and personal skillset to complete a predetermined distance faster than your competitors. Every form of racing has different strategies and methodologies for making that happen and that’s why racing is beautiful.

The deployment of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy against plate racing has grated me for 20 years. It is racing in almost every definition of the word.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Pack racing goes against the core principles of racing though.

There's no strategy to it in terms of managing equipment. There's no adjusting lines to find the right lane for the handling of your car. It doesn't matter if the handling goes away. There's nothing you can do to gain a tenth of a second.

You can't get too far ahead? What a ****** crock.

There's some skill required to it and I'll concede that. The only good thing about it is that it gives drivers who don't normally have a shot to win a legitimate chance.

Pack racing was a thrilling show in the 2000s. It's not even that thrilling anymore.

Personally, I like the superspeedway races of the 90s the most when it comes to this genre of racing.
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Pack racing is fine at the tracks they do it at. Do I want to see it every week as a fan? No. Gosh no.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The drivers don’t want pack racing because they lack the patience to do it well. Running over each other and throwing blocks is just insanity. We saw on Sunday that pack racing in the Gen 7 car can be good. Lines were moving and guys had to position themselves to make moves.

NASCAR needs to get rid of this win and you’re in insanity so drivers don’t drive like maniacs to have a shot at the championship.
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Speak for yourself, I dont think that the pack racing on Sunday was good and if you look at the rate the race thread, a lot of people agree with me.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Pack racing is a form of racing though, it’s just different from short tracks and road courses. You’re still strategizing and putting yourself in a position to be the first one to complete a prescribed distance. Plate racing is more of a mental game that requires positioning yourself in the right lane and in position to catch the right run. Get in the wrong lane? Going to the back. Don’t move at the right time? You’re stuck. You have to think ahead and put yourself in position to win. Your car doesn’t handle well down low and the dominant lane is down there? Talk to your crew and make adjustments.

The idea that plate racing violates “core principles of racing” is ludicrous. The core principle of automotive racing is that you utilize your equipment and personal skillset to complete a predetermined distance faster than your competitors. Every form of racing has different strategies and methodologies for making that happen and that’s why racing is beautiful.

The deployment of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy against plate racing has grated me for 20 years. It is racing in almost every definition of the word.
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It's a form of racing, but in no way does it follow the core principles. We're just telling ourselves that it's this and that to make ourselves more comfortable with it. I'd argue what you said about the strategy and all was true in the 2000s, but not now. I enjoyed the art of it in the 2000s, but there's very little of that today. What I've seen the past few years ain't it.

And by the way, pack racing isn't even an organic product. Tandem racing is. NASCAR actually implements a ton of rules and packages to force this product because "The Big One" in the 2011 Daytona 500 only collected like six cars.

The biggest problem is, pack racing IS what NASCAR wants to see every week. They've been trying to force this for a half-decade now. The problem is, it's not an organic style of racing, so they've had very little success. It requires tracks to be configured to where cars can run wide open and requires horsepower reductions and special packages in the cars to make them all equal.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
It's a form of racing, but in no way does it follow the core principles. We're just telling ourselves that it's this and that to make ourselves more comfortable with it. I'd argue what you said about the strategy and all was true in the 2000s, but not now. What I've seen the past few years ain't it.

And by the way, pack racing isn't even an organic product. Tandem racing is. NASCAR actually implements a ton of rules and packages to force this product because "The Big One" in the 2011 Daytona 500 only collected like six cars.

The biggest problem is, pack racing IS what NASCAR wants to see every week. They've been trying to force this for a half-decade now. The problem is, it's not an organic style of racing, so they've had very little success.
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I might have been the only person who liked tandem racing because it was a natural evolution of pack racing.

But the only “core principle” of racing is using your equipment (under whatever specs that exist) and wheeling it to be the first person to complete the racing distance. Whether it’s foot, horse, or auto racing, that has been the core principle of racing since the first two humans decided to foot race.
 
Daytripper said:
Speak for yourself, I dont think that the pack racing on Sunday was good and if you look at the rate the race thread, a lot of people agree with me.
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1682698110822.png
 
The Nature Boy said:
I might have been the only person who liked tandem racing because it was a natural evolution of pack racing.
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It was weird at first, but the product was honestly much more entertaining than what we've got now. And when I heard Mark Martin's explanation of why superspeedway races evolved to tandem drafting, it made sense.

He had said something to the effect of, the cars are very unstable in a 20 car line, only the first place and last place cars are stable, and the drivers figured out that, if they could lock bumpers and hook up, both cars would be stable and they'd be much faster.

The Nature Boy said:
But the only “core principle” of racing is using your equipment (under whatever specs that exists) and wheeling it to be the first person to complete the racing distance. Whether it’s foot, horse, or auto racing, that has been the core principle of racing since the first two humans decided to foot race.
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Pack racing = a foot race in Harrison Bergeron.

It's a forced product that requires a special set of rules.

If the cars have gotten too fast for the tracks, you fix the tracks. Except, we're not fixing the tracks, we're building more of them! Because millions of additional people tune in to see "The Big One."
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
It was weird at first, but the product was honestly much more entertaining than what we've got now. And when I heard Mark Martin's explanation of why superspeedway races evolved to tandem drafting, it made sense.

He had said something to the effect of, the cars are very unstable in a 20 car line, only the first place and last place cars are stable, and the drivers figured out that, if they could lock bumpers and hook up, both cars would be stable and they'd be much faster.



Pack racing = a foot race in Harrison Bergeron.

It's a forced product that requires a special set of rules.

If the cars have gotten too fast for the tracks, you fix the tracks. Except, we're not fixing the tracks, we're building more of them! Because millions of additional people tune in to see "The Big One."
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Success and popularity is terrible.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Pack racing is fine at the tracks they do it at. Do I want to see it every week as a fan? No. Gosh no.
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Once they reconfigured Atlanta to force this product on us, because NASCAR and the fans couldn't just live with a track having a few years of lackluster racing, I was completely done with it.

I was able to live with Daytona and Talladega. But not now.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Once they reconfigured Atlanta to force this product on us, because NASCAR and the fans couldn't just live with a track having a few years of lackluster racing, I was completely done with it.

I was able to live with Daytona and Talladega. But not now.
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:XXROFL:
 
Daytripper said:
Yes, I was one of those viewers, does not mean I thought the racing was good.
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I never thought that for a minute lol. But IMO comparing what this forums opinion is compared to what almost 6 million peak thought and voted with their feet, I don't think will sway what the powers that be think about the Dega racing product was my point.
 
StandOnIt said:
I never thought that for a minute lol. But IMO comparing what this forums opinion is compared to what almost 6 million peak thought and voted with their feet, I don't think will sway what the powers that be think about the Dega racing product was my point.
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TV ratings translated, tell me you're here for the crashes without telling me you're here for the crashes.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
TV ratings translated, tell me you're here for the crashes without telling me you're here for the crashes.
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That is your ol strawman topic, next you will do your best to demean anybody who watches the superspeedway races, been down this road way too many times yawn.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is your ol strawman topic, next you will do your best to demean anybody who watches the superspeedway races, been down this road way too many times yawn.
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We all know it's true though, plenty of people watch these four races because of "The Big One."

Using your argument, we should convert every track into Daytona and crash at least 50% of the field each week to give those fans the show they desire.

You can say otherwise because it's reflex for you to defend NASCAR no matter what but you're lying to yourself and everyone else on here.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
We all know it's true though, plenty of people watch these four races because of "The Big One."

Using your argument, we should convert every track into Daytona and crash at least 50% of the field each week to give those fans the show they desire.

You can say otherwise because it's reflex for you to defend NASCAR no matter what but you're lying to yourself and everyone else on here.
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Almost 6 million peak watched the race. Do you think the powers that be care about your opinion? or mine for that matter.
 
aunty dive said:
Classless post.
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Everyone in the paddock knew why IndyCar was going to Las Vegas in 2011.

The possibility of spectacular crashes and the notion of wide-open racing inches apart at 220 mph was the selling point for that race. It was being talked up for those reasons in Baltimore a month prior.

After the Fontana race in 2015, as thrilling as it was, many of the drivers were very outspoken about how they were flirting with disaster with this style of racing. And the fans questioned their manhood for it.

But it's all in The Show though, right?
 
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