Manipulating races w/ BS cautions

ted@economy said:
Don't they argue ball and strike calls in baseball anymore ? Is that why all those people are over here ?
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I can't speak for baseball but I know football coaches will pitch a hissy over different things but it gets them nowhere as a rule.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I think Nascar is over zealous when it comes to safety at most tracks but that is just my opinion. However I really think they drop the ball at the 4 plate races and need to increase safety at those tracks and I feel they have done nothing to stop the events commonly called "the big one" and to me that is a problem. I am really surprised it is a non starter with most others.
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While doing nothing , they have managed to put up safer barriers , pave a lot of the infield , and erect higher catch fencing . Unfortunately some folks see Daytona and Talledega as an important part of Nascar racing .
 
If you want to compare it to another sport, I would say the unnecessary cautions are comparable to watching a football game where the refs throw a penalty flag anytime someone touches someone. Excessive holding calls, bogus pass interference calls, etc. Nobody likes that BS, and the constant interruptions are annoying.

That is pure manipulation by the officials, and just like Nascar and their excessive cautions, it ruins the natural flow of the event and effects the outcome. No bueno.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
If giving the worst team the first pick in the next draft and giving each team the ability to spend the same dough on players is manipulation then most leagues are guilty. To me that is a far cry from altering the events in a given contest (race)
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Skoal ,Skoal, Skoal . Not all of those offside calls in football and hockey are really offside . Everyone knows full well they are there to kill drives .
 
The catch rule, pass interference, holding... of course official manipulate the outcome of games, and that's just the NFL. Heck, remember Packers vs Seahawks 2012 with the replacement refs? They literally picked the winner themselves that night.
 
ted@economy said:
Skoal ,Skoal, Skoal . Not all of those offside calls in football and hockey are really offside . Everyone knows full well they are there to kill drives .
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LOL, do you think Nascar secretly supplies some officials for certain games? No question there are blown calls in football and we have even seen them cost a team a victory. With coaches challenges and replaying scoring plays they do the best to keep things right.
 
I always enjoy watching some dumbass flapping his gums after he's politely been told to STFU.
 
29-4 said:
Name calling is always a great way to show intellectual fortitude, after all.
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No worse than referring to people who see things differently than you do as hypocrites.
 
29-4 said:
I love the defense of corruption in this thread by saying 'other sports are corrupt, too, so it's fine!'
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I have respect for people who say something to the effect of "I hate the chase, I don't like some of the new rules and I understand that at times Nascar uses the caution flag to manage a race but I don't care as I still enjoy watching as it is the only game in town and I have been a longtime fan. What I don't care for is people pretending there isn't a big pink elephant standing in the room.

I think I know how you feel but be cool as it is not worth pushing.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I think you get insulted by Nascar way too easy, almost as if you are looking for something to be insulted by. Nascar's blanket policy not to send people across pit road under green flag running may be overly conservative, I don't know if it is or is not. But I wouldn't want to decide which tracks I could send out a subordinate and which tracks I couldn't. Leveling the charge that Nascar does that just to create more restarts and more wrecks seems simplistic and spiteful IMO. BTW, wasn't that the first such caution of the year? And I recall one at Texas, but can't remember if it was 2015 or 2014?

Sunday's race had an unusual amount of major clean up of fluids, so several cautions seemed very long... They *were* long, but they had to be. I too found that frustrating, but sometimes that is just part of the deal.
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Quick he needs a safe place!
 
Acs said:
If you don't think there should be a caution for dirt in the bus stop just watch the replay of the xfinity race to see how well that went. 1st car plows splitter through grass and sprays dirt all over the track, 2nd car spins in said dirt and kicks more onto track; rinse, repeat, crash.
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I agree. Ignoring a load of dirt and gravel at the bus stop apex is sort of like ignoring oil on the track. After all, if everyone just slows down enough, everyone will be fine. No, that does not turn out well, better to sweep it off, IMO.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words and it does seem hypocritical that some folks would get wadded up over a tire on pit road but ignore the awaiting disaster at plate tracks. No one can answer why they feel a tire on pit road is dangerous but a car in the fence at a plate track is peachy. When a person paints themselves in a corner it is bound to happen.
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I'll answer this, and I'll try to be less condescending in tone than you. I'll basically repeat the answer I posted last week when you tried to turn the four plate races into a referendum on all Nascar safety initiatives. Because that is what you are attempting again.

Racing is inherently dangerous, and the dangers come from many different places. Despite this, Nascar races on. I'm no fan of Daytona or Talladega, but these tracks are a part of what Nascar is, and they are deeply embedded in the DNA of Nascar racing. So those restrictor plate races will continue, whether I like it or not (and I don't). However, Nascar has been actively working in many ways to mitigate the dangers of the Daytona and Talladega races. There are special engine specs tailored to these races. Special chassis requirements too. And special bodies with unique aerodynamic solutions. And much of what has been learned at plate tracks has served to improve safety at the other 32 races as well, like roof flaps and hood flaps and chassis structural details, and better seats that completely changed the way the belts are attached.

I was fascinated to learn the experts' opinion that, without the revised belting system, Austin Dillon would not have walked away from that July 2015 Daytona crash. The seat builders objected that what Nascar wanted could not be done. But Nascar remained adamant, the seat builders found a way to comply, and Dillon raced again the next week.

Those two tracks have also done a lot. Catch fencing advances, moving walls and changing their angles, SAFER barriers, gates and access roads, and more. Also, Nascar has designed and modified race procedures to accommodate the plate tracks. Can there be any doubt that the new overtime rules are in place to eliminate a second or third attempt at restrictor plate GWC finishes? Not hardly.

Despite all these efforts, plate races remain at the high end of the modern Nascar danger scale. But there are dangers that exist at all tracks everywhere. Back in the bad old days, drivers died and suffered serious debilitating injuries at all of them with alarming regularity in Nascar, USAC, FIA, FIM, and AMA among others. Today our grief for Bryan Clauson is particularly deep and heartfelt *partly* because such a tragedy is so rare compared to the bad old days of 2 or 3 or 5 decades ago.

Racing is safer today because of a thousand improvements that affect and optimize every part of the racecars, every item of personal safety gear, the design of the tracks and their walls and other barriers, better rescue personnel and their equipment, and raceday procedures that address many of the risks. Things as great and dramatic as fuel cells, pit speed limits, and HANS devices, added to less headline grabbing improvements such as nomex, window nets, and keeping people off a hot pit road during green flag running.

Collectively, a thousand (or more) improvements have dramatically changed for the better the dangers associated with motorsports of all types. And among all types, Nascar has earned a safety record that is the envy of the go fast world. There is no racing anywhere that does as good a job of taking care of its own as Nascar does.

To say that these efforts are hypocritical and all for naught simply because the plate races remain a part of Nascar racing is a ludicrous and desperate charge that has no basis in fact or logic. Nascar works on safety like the crew chief and engineers search for speed... by turning over a thousand stones, and adding together all the incremental gains. And Nascar's safety record proves the wisdom of those efforts.
 
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It's like insisting your kid wear kneepads when you send him to rollerblade across a six lane interstate.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I'll answer this, and I'll try to be less condescending in tone than you. I'll basically repeat the answer I posted last week when you tried to turn the four plate races into a referendum on all Nascar safety initiatives. Because that is what you are attempting again.

Racing is inherently dangerous, and the dangers come from many different places. Despite this, Nascar races on. I'm no fan of Daytona or Talladega, but these tracks are a part of what Nascar is, and they are deeply embedded in the DNA of Nascar racing. So those restrictor plate races will continue, whether I like it or not (and I don't). However, Nascar has been actively working in many ways to mitigate the dangers of the Daytona and Talladega races. There are special engine specs tailored to these races. Special chassis requirements too. And special bodies with unique aerodynamic solutions. And much of what has been learned at plate tracks has served to improve safety at the other 32 races as well, like roof flaps and hood flaps and chassis structural details, and better seats that completely changed the way the belts are attached.

I was fascinated to learn the experts' opinion that, without the revised belting system, Austin Dillon would not have walked away from that July 2015 Daytona crash. The seat builders objected that what Nascar wanted could not be done. But Nascar remained adamant, the seat builders found a way to comply, and Dillon raced again the next week.

Those two tracks have also done a lot. Catch fencing advances, moving walls and changing their angles, SAFER barriers, gates and access roads, and more. Also, Nascar has designed and modified race procedures to accommodate the plate tracks. Can there be any doubt that the new overtime rules are in place to eliminate a second or third attempt at restrictor plate GWC finishes? Not hardly.

Despite all these efforts, plate races remain at the high end of the modern Nascar danger scale. But there are dangers that exist at all tracks everywhere. Back in the bad old days, drivers died and suffered serious debilitating injuries at all of them with alarming regularity in Nascar, USAC, FIA, FIM, and AMA among others. Today our grief for Bryan Clauson is particularly deep and heartfelt *partly* because such a tragedy is so rare compared to the bad old days of 2 or 3 or 5 decades ago.

Racing is safer today because of a thousand improvements that affect and optimize every part of the racecars, every item of personal safety gear, the design of the tracks and their walls and other barriers, better rescue personnel and their equipment, and raceday procedures that address many of the risks. Things as great and dramatic as fuel cells, pit speed limits, and HANS devices, added to less headline grabbing improvements such as nomex, window nets, and keeping people off a hot pit road during green flag running.

Collectively, a thousand (or more) improvements have dramatically changed for the better the dangers associated with motorsports of all types. And among all types, Nascar has earned a safety record that is the envy of the go fast world. There is no racing anywhere that does as good a job of taking care of its own as Nascar does.

To say that these efforts are hypocritical and all for naught simply because the plate races remain a part of Nascar racing is a ludicrous and desperate charge that has no basis in fact or logic. Nascar works on safety like the crew chief and engineers search for speed... by turning over a thousand stones, and adding together all the incremental gains. And Nascar's safety record proves the wisdom of those efforts.
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Thank you . Well said. Sad , that in the face of all the improvements , some "fans "would still like to see the drivers race without seat belts and helmets .
 
nascar's decline started with the pit road speed limit. watching the cars going down pit road at speed when the caution came out was something tpo see. this luckey dog wave around thing is BS. the whole point lof racing is to keep drivers that you lapped a lap down.
 
BOWTIE GUY said:
nascar's decline started with the pit road speed limit. watching the cars going down pit road at speed when the caution came out was something tpo see. this luckey dog wave around thing is BS. the whole point lof racing is to keep drivers that you lapped a lap down.
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You may be correct in your assumptions, however I will accept those changes in light of when we watched people maimed and killed because a driver couldn't control themselves.
The last restart of all races shows that many of today's drivers can't control their impulses
to go all out and damn with the consequences.
 
RowdyBusch said:
All the calamity, mayhem and brutal crashes on Sunday started with this caution



A rolling tire on an empty pit road.
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Another great point that I don't think has been brought up in this thread. Bunching the field for a tire in the pits led to several far more dangerous situations, and once again shows the hypocrisy of those who run this sport (won't say of posters here who I guess are well meaning).
 
LewTheShoe said:
I'll answer this, and I'll try to be less condescending in tone than you. I'll basically repeat the answer I posted last week when you tried to turn the four plate races into a referendum on all Nascar safety initiatives. Because that is what you are attempting again.

Racing is inherently dangerous, and the dangers come from many different places. Despite this, Nascar races on. I'm no fan of Daytona or Talladega, but these tracks are a part of what Nascar is, and they are deeply embedded in the DNA of Nascar racing. So those restrictor plate races will continue, whether I like it or not (and I don't). However, Nascar has been actively working in many ways to mitigate the dangers of the Daytona and Talladega races. There are special engine specs tailored to these races. Special chassis requirements too. And special bodies with unique aerodynamic solutions. And much of what has been learned at plate tracks has served to improve safety at the other 32 races as well, like roof flaps and hood flaps and chassis structural details, and better seats that completely changed the way the belts are attached.

I was fascinated to learn the experts' opinion that, without the revised belting system, Austin Dillon would not have walked away from that July 2015 Daytona crash. The seat builders objected that what Nascar wanted could not be done. But Nascar remained adamant, the seat builders found a way to comply, and Dillon raced again the next week.

Those two tracks have also done a lot. Catch fencing advances, moving walls and changing their angles, SAFER barriers, gates and access roads, and more. Also, Nascar has designed and modified race procedures to accommodate the plate tracks. Can there be any doubt that the new overtime rules are in place to eliminate a second or third attempt at restrictor plate GWC finishes? Not hardly.

Despite all these efforts, plate races remain at the high end of the modern Nascar danger scale. But there are dangers that exist at all tracks everywhere. Back in the bad old days, drivers died and suffered serious debilitating injuries at all of them with alarming regularity in Nascar, USAC, FIA, FIM, and AMA among others. Today our grief for Bryan Clauson is particularly deep and heartfelt *partly* because such a tragedy is so rare compared to the bad old days of 2 or 3 or 5 decades ago.

Racing is safer today because of a thousand improvements that affect and optimize every part of the racecars, every item of personal safety gear, the design of the tracks and their walls and other barriers, better rescue personnel and their equipment, and raceday procedures that address many of the risks. Things as great and dramatic as fuel cells, pit speed limits, and HANS devices, added to less headline grabbing improvements such as nomex, window nets, and keeping people off a hot pit road during green flag running.

Collectively, a thousand (or more) improvements have dramatically changed for the better the dangers associated with motorsports of all types. And among all types, Nascar has earned a safety record that is the envy of the go fast world. There is no racing anywhere that does as good a job of taking care of its own as Nascar does.

To say that these efforts are hypocritical and all for naught simply because the plate races remain a part of Nascar racing is a ludicrous and desperate charge that has no basis in fact or logic. Nascar works on safety like the crew chief and engineers search for speed... by turning over a thousand stones, and adding together all the incremental gains. And Nascar's safety record proves the wisdom of those efforts.
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So basically it is what it is.

BOWTIE GUY said:
nascar's decline started with the pit road speed limit. watching the cars going down pit road at speed when the caution came out was something tpo see. this luckey dog wave around thing is BS. the whole point lof racing is to keep drivers that you lapped a lap down.
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I have long maintained that the beginning of the end started with pit road speeds.

RowdyBusch said:
All the calamity, mayhem and brutal crashes on Sunday started with this caution



A rolling tire on an empty pit road.
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And there are people that defend this sort of nonsense and cloak it as a safety issue when anyone with a set of eyes can see that it is complete bullschitt.
 
I can barely stand
29-4 said:
Another great point that I don't think has been brought up in this thread. Bunching the field for a tire in the pits led to several far more dangerous situations, and once again shows the hypocrisy of those who run this sport (won't say of posters here who I guess are well meaning).
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You guess?

No, you don't.
 
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