Manipulating races w/ BS cautions

It is very unfortunate the debris cautions are linked to TV commercials. At least in the NFL you can see the bad call as it happened without commercials.
 
I can understand the caution coming out for gravel on the racing surface but the yellow for the wandering tire was pure BS.
 
BobbyFord said:
I can understand the caution coming out for gravel on the racing surface but the yellow for the wandering tire was pure BS.
Click to expand...
Bobby, you are aware the tire rolled across pit road to the far side, right? (It would seem reasonable that a competing crewman would have stopped it before that happened, but I guess they have their own agenda about wanting a competitor to get a penalty.)
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
So basically it is what it is.
Click to expand...
Your flippant remark misrepresents my post entirely, and you know it. "It is what it is" only to recognize that plate races are going to remain on the schedule for the foreseeable future. Given that reality, Nascar's approach has been to make plate races as safe as possible on many different fronts, and also to seek ways on all fronts to make non-plate races safer as well. Given that Daytona and Talladega are on the schedule, it is the exact opposite of "It is what it is."

Meanwhile, your approach to the matter is to ridicule Nascar's safety efforts (and results). You say that as long as the plate races remain, any other safety measure Nascar takes is hypocritical, and many of them harm the show and dampen the excitement of danger, thus causing your interest in Nascar to wither. You callously refuse to acknowledge that safety initiatives have made plate races safer, and have made non-plate races safer, and both are good things.

I have read your laments about the watering down of the sport by removing the elements of danger and death. You have compared the golden days of Nascar to a tightrope walker posed over Niagara Falls, and a mistake has real consequences. You have said giving him a tether or safety net lessens the excitement and makes a bland, boring product. That may be your Nascar, but that is not my Nascar.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Bobby, you are aware the tire rolled across pit road to the far side, right? (It would seem reasonable that a competing crewman would have stopped it before that happened, but I guess they have their own agenda about wanting a competitor to get a penalty.)
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
I don't think it warranted a caution.
 
BobbyFord said:
Absolutely.
I don't think it warranted a caution.
Click to expand...
Certainly it was an unfortunate caution, at the very least. Sometimes that happens when there are policies in place and they are followed consistently. Nascar gets criticized on both ends, when they are consistent, and when they are not. Fortunately, a tire across pit road is pretty rare.
 
Also, if it was such a safety concern, why didn't anyone stop the tire?
LewTheShoe said:
Certainly it was an unfortunate caution, at the very least. Sometimes that happens when there are policies in place and they are followed consistently. Nascar gets criticized on both ends, when they are consistent, and when they are not. Fortunately, a tire across pit road is pretty rare.
Click to expand...
The tire was eventually scooped up by a crew member from the 31, so the yellow was to bunch up the field, not for the reason of safety. No cars were on pit road at the time. To me, that is manipulation.
 
^ I didn't know that. I thought the caution was to send someone after the tire, which has been the consistent procedure AFAIK.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Your flippant remark misrepresents my post entirely, and you know it. "It is what it is" only to recognize that plate races are going to remain on the schedule for the foreseeable future. Given that reality, Nascar's approach has been to make plate races as safe as possible on many different fronts, and also to seek ways on all fronts to make non-plate races safer as well. Given that Daytona and Talladega are on the schedule, it is the exact opposite of "It is what it is."

Meanwhile, your approach to the matter is to ridicule Nascar's safety efforts (and results). You say that as long as the plate races remain, any other safety measure Nascar takes is hypocritical, and many of them harm the show and dampen the excitement of danger, thus causing your interest in Nascar to wither. You callously refuse to acknowledge that safety initiatives have made plate races safer, and have made non-plate races safer, and both are good things.

I have read your laments about the watering down of the sport by removing the elements of danger and death. You have compared the golden days of Nascar to a tightrope walker posed over Niagara Falls, and a mistake has real consequences. You have said giving him a tether or safety net lessens the excitement and makes a bland, boring product. That may be your Nascar, but that is not my Nascar.
Click to expand...

I meant no harm in my response "it is what it is" but in fact was agreeing with you and your scenario. If memory serves you waxed eloquently about all the safety initiatives Nascar has implemented and even though plate races are on the more dangerous end of the scale they have made safety improvements. You said something like plate races are in Nascar's DNA and that they will always be on the schedule so all you can do is make them as safe as possible. In that case it is what it is as plate races will always be with us and all that can be done is try and mitigate disaster as much as possible ergo it is what it is.

IDK what you are talking about concerning Niagara Falls and tightrope walkers as I don't recall even thinking it let alone typing it. It does make sense that a walker sans tether and net is far more exciting and because there is actual risk involved. The tether and net negate all risk and reduce the exercise to the level of watching your grandmother knit a sweater.

I could go line for line and word for word debunking what you have attributed to me but it isn't worth the time. IDK if you have a projection problem, an inferiority complex, a bad memory or what is at work but something is off.
 
BobbyFord said:
Also, if it was such a safety concern, why didn't anyone stop the tire?
Click to expand...

Excellent point.

If safety were truly the issue, one could imagine NASCAR reprimanding the pit crew members who nonchalantly swept the pit stall while ignoring the "dangerous" tire as it rolled past them.

I whole heartedly believe in throwing cautions for bona fide safety concerns and give kudos to @LewTheShoe for his excellent safety-related post last night, but those that believe that every each and every caution is safety related simply can't see the forest for the trees.
 
BobbyFord said:
Also, if it was such a safety concern, why didn't anyone stop the tire?

The tire was eventually scooped up by a crew member from the 31, so the yellow was to bunch up the field, not for the reason of safety. No cars were on pit road at the time. To me, that is manipulation.
Click to expand...

I would have much more respect for the person that said "yeah it was manipulation but I really don't care" as opposed to trying to pass off this incident as some kind of matter of safety as that is gobbledygook. The cars were all on track, pit road crews were already dicking around in respective pit stalls and the 31 team member nonchalantly grabbed the person killing tire and put it in its place.
 
BobbyFord said:
Oooo, snack time :lurk:
Click to expand...

There is nothing like having someone put words in your mouth. It would be like me saying you said you would no longer watch cup races when you said you would not watch any chase races. Comprehension and communication are obviously not a strong suit for some.
 
pjmolo said:
Excellent point.

If safety were truly the issue, one could imagine NASCAR reprimanding the pit crew members who nonchalantly swept the pit stall while ignoring the "dangerous" tire as it rolled past them.

I whole heartedly believe in throwing cautions for bona fide safety concerns and give kudos to @LewTheShoe for his excellent safety-related post last night, but those that believe that every each and every caution is safety related simply can't see the forest for the trees.
Click to expand...

If a car is on fire it is a safety hazard, if a wall doesn't have a barrier then its a safety hazard, if a car has leaked fluid in the track it is a safety hazard and if a car is barrel rolling down the front stretch it is a safety hazard. A tire traveling at half the speed of smell down pit road is not a safety issue.
 
Well, I do commend NASCAR for everything they do in the name of safety; HANS, SAFER walls, Earnhardt bar, plates, tethers, etc. but every fan and anyone involved with or behind the scenes at NASCAR knows that the yellow flag has become a tool for NASCAR to "improve" the on-track product. I wish there was a way that they could better mask the manipulation. New fans may not care but I think this practice leaves a bad taste in the mouths of veteran NASCAR fans.
 
BobbyFord said:
Well, I do commend NASCAR for everything they do in the name of safety; HANS, SAFER walls, Earnhardt bar, plates, tethers, etc. but every fan and anyone involved with or behind the scenes at NASCAR knows that the yellow flag has become a tool for NASCAR to "improve" the on-track product. I wish there was a way that they could better mask the manipulation. New fans may not care but I think this practice leaves a bad taste in the mouths of veteran NASCAR fans.
Click to expand...

"I wish there was a way that they could better mask the manipulation." It's called the caution clock and when it comes to cup it should cut way down on the bogus yellows.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IDK what you are talking about concerning Niagara Falls and tightrope walkers as I don't recall even thinking it let alone typing it. It does make sense that a walker sans tether and net is far more exciting and because there is actual risk involved. The tether and net negate all risk and reduce the exercise to the level of watching your grandmother knit a sweater.
Click to expand...
Your post comparing Nascar to daredevils at Niagara Falls was wiped out in the R-F meltdown, otherwise I'd link to it. It was one of our several conversations about what is good or bad about safety in modern Nascar. You didn't like it then either when I called you out for your callous attitudes on what is exciting and worthwhile. But no matter, as you have posted similar BS today, that deal about your grandmother knitting a sweater. In my racing world, the excitement comes from head-to-head competition using skill and guile to go for the win... one will get it and the others will not. I don't need the driver who makes a mistake to be exposed to elevated risk of death or serious injury to be interested in the sport. Apparently, that is our difference.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Your post comparing Nascar to daredevils at Niagara Falls was wiped out in the R-F meltdown, otherwise I'd link to it. It was one of our several conversations about what is good or bad about safety in modern Nascar. You didn't like it then either when I called you out for your callous attitudes on what is exciting and worthwhile. But no matter, as you have posted similar BS today, that deal about your grandmother knitting a sweater. In my racing world, the excitement comes from head-to-head competition using skill and guile to go for the win... one will get it and the others will not. I don't need the driver who makes a mistake to be exposed to elevated risk of death or serious injury to be interested in the sport. Apparently, that is our difference.
Click to expand...

I made it through the first sentence and stopped for obvious reasons. We have failure to communicate and I will leave it at that.
 
BobbyFord said:
Well, I do commend NASCAR for everything they do in the name of safety; HANS, SAFER walls, Earnhardt bar, plates, tethers, etc. but every fan and anyone involved with or behind the scenes at NASCAR knows that the yellow flag has become a tool for NASCAR to "improve" the on-track product. I wish there was a way that they could better mask the manipulation. New fans may not care but I think this practice leaves a bad taste in the mouths of veteran NASCAR fans.
Click to expand...

Good points, but I think it may actually hurt more with new fans. My wife has only watched NASCAR with me for the last year. She was incredulous when the caution came out for the tire, and I couldn't explain it to her without resorting to the true explanation (the leader was too far ahead, so a caution had to be thrown). Us old fans know that NASCAR uses the caution to manipulate race outcomes, but new fans are likely to become disillusioned to a sport if they know it is rigged. Such obvious outcome manipulation would not be tolerated in any other legitimate sport, but race fans seem to continue to be okay with it.
 
BobbyFord said:
Let's hope the clock goes away for ever.
Click to expand...

It is a safety issue so we need it lol. I am sure Nascar will do whatever their bosses at the Networks tell them to do and if they say caution clock it will be egg timers all around.
 
Curious if there is any video of DiBenedetto's pit stop where the tire got away from the team? Or, is the only video the one after they're under caution when the tire is grabbed by the #31 team. I looked up where those two were pitting in relation to one another. They were separated by 9 pit stalls. Pit stalls are 29' long at The Glen. His tire traveled down pit road a little under a football fields length bringing out the caution somewhere along the way. Team members can't just jump over a wall to go grab a tire under green flag conditions. A tire rolling down pit road under green with green flag pit stops taking place will bring out the caution each and every time. I'm not sure why everyone is having such a problem with that.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
It is a safety issue so we need it lol. I am sure Nascar will do whatever their bosses at the Networks tell them to do and if they say caution clock it will be egg timers all around.
Click to expand...

"Given the continual presence of track debris, from balloons to dirt, NASCAR will implement cautions every 30 minutes to clean the racing surface. It is the only way we can keep our drivers safe." I could totally here Brain saying something like this.
 
29-4 said:
Good points, but I think it may actually hurt more with new fans. My wife has only watched NASCAR with me for the last year. She was incredulous when the caution came out for the tire, and I couldn't explain it to her without resorting to the true explanation (the leader was too far ahead, so a caution had to be thrown). Us old fans know that NASCAR uses the caution to manipulate race outcomes, but new fans are likely to become disillusioned to a sport if they know it is rigged. Such obvious outcome manipulation would not be tolerated in any other legitimate sport, but race fans seem to continue to be okay with it.
Click to expand...

Try explaining to a newbie how in all likelihood Chris Buescher will be competing for a championship and taking home 16th place money. We all know that CB can make the chase fair and square but who was/were the imbecile(s) that put rules in place that would allow that sort of thing. So far this year we likely have a backmarker in the chase and a guy that missed a bunch of races due to a recreational accident.

Nascar needs a continued influx of new fans to make up for the many who have left, who will leave and those that die off each year. If Nascar's initiatives will help usher in a bunch of enthusiastic fans I am all for those changes even if I don't care for them as the people will have spoken.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Curious if there is any video of DiBenedetto's pit stop where the tire got away from the team? Or, is the only video the one after they're under caution when the tire is grabbed by the #31 team. I looked up where those two were pitting in relation to one another. They were separated by 9 pit stalls. Pit stalls are 29' long at The Glen. His tire traveled down pit road a little under a football fields length bringing out the caution somewhere along the way. Team members can't just jump over a wall to go grab a tire under green flag conditions. A tire rolling down pit road under green with green flag pit stops taking place will bring out the caution each and every time. I'm not sure why everyone is having such a problem with that.
Click to expand...
The problem that I have is that had someone been "allowed" to grab a tire that is about 6' away, the yellow wouldn't have been needed. There were no cars on pit road at the time. This yellow could easily have been avoided. A NASCAR official could have grabbed the tire. IMO, this wasn't a safety issue. NASCAR could've used better judgement.
This unnecessary caution wadded up the field and, IMO, caused pretty much the rest of the cautions and tore up a bunch of racecars.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Curious if there is any video of DiBenedetto's pit stop where the tire got away from the team? Or, is the only video the one after they're under caution when the tire is grabbed by the #31 team. I looked up where those two were pitting in relation to one another. They were separated by 9 pit stalls. Pit stalls are 29' long at The Glen. His tire traveled down pit road a little under a football fields length bringing out the caution somewhere along the way. Team members can't just jump over a wall to go grab a tire under green flag conditions. A tire rolling down pit road under green with green flag pit stops taking place will bring out the caution each and every time. I'm not sure why everyone is having such a problem with that.
Click to expand...

I think the pit crew members should be required to wear face masks as often times lug nuts are flying around like bullets and could cause blindness or many other preventable problems. As far as the tire goes I think some people will see it as a rogue jihadist, some will see it as a bunch up caution and some don't care as long as they can watch Nascar.

If I was a pit crew member I would probably alternate these masks for the first few weeks and add some others as the season wore on.

eh1.jpg
ru4170adda.jpg
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Curious if there is any video of DiBenedetto's pit stop where the tire got away from the team? Or, is the only video the one after they're under caution when the tire is grabbed by the #31 team. I looked up where those two were pitting in relation to one another. They were separated by 9 pit stalls. Pit stalls are 29' long at The Glen. His tire traveled down pit road a little under a football fields length bringing out the caution somewhere along the way. Team members can't just jump over a wall to go grab a tire under green flag conditions. A tire rolling down pit road under green with green flag pit stops taking place will bring out the caution each and every time. I'm not sure why everyone is having such a problem with that.
Click to expand...

No common sense please , the kids r talkin manipulation .
 
BobbyFord said:
Besides, it's only Tuesday and we have nothing else to hash about :D
Click to expand...

I don't keep track of the race dates any longer but for years I did the three in a row of MIS, Bristol and Darlington so evidently the schedule changed and I gather this is an off week. I hope Denny Hamlin doesn't play any basketball this weekend as that has proven an unsafe thing for him to do in the past.
 
ted@economy said:
No common sense please , the kids r talkin manipulation .
Click to expand...

I would rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than face the consequences of a post 9/11 tire raging down pit road. All I can say is it is a damn good thing that it was a radial because if it was a bias ply with stagger the damn thing coulda made a U turn and got back onto the track and killed 2 or 3 drivers. We must remain vigilant and on guard for that sorta thing ya know.
 
Is it true that Nascar wanted the 11 to win last weekend and the 3 and 48 to crash ? That's what the kids are sayin at the malt shop.
 
ted@economy said:
Is it true that Nascar wanted the 11 to win last weekend and the 3 and 48 to crash ? That's what the kids are sayin at the malt shop.
Click to expand...

MMMM......malt shop.....haven't seen one of those since LBJ was in office. Was the crash that occurred between 3 and 48 set up by the man eating tar down pit road caution?
 
ted@economy said:
Is it true that Nascar wanted the 11 to win last weekend and the 3 and 48 to crash ? That's what the kids are sayin at the malt shop.
Click to expand...
To be fair, drivers have discussed bogus yellow flags on many occasions. I believe @Allenbaba has also mentioned it on this forum.
So, don't act like it isn't happening.
 
BobbyFord said:
To be fair, drivers have discussed bogus yellow flags on many occasions. I believe @Allenbaba has also mentioned it on this forum.
So, don't act like it isn't happening.
Click to expand...

Allen has discussed it as have the drivers and others but Ted has always remained steadfast that Nascar would never intentionally misuse the yellow flag.
 
I don't know why NASCAR has the Fan Council if they aren't listening to the fans. We can't be the only ones that feel this way. NASCAR could easily make overall improvement if they would just listen to the fans. JMO.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Allen has discussed it as have the drivers and others but Ted has always remained steadfast that Nascar would never intentionally misuse the yellow flag.
Click to expand...

Not true kemo sabbe , I do believe they exist . Just like I do believe aliens exist . I'm just not 100% sure that I have seen either one . I think that I have , just not sure .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom