Manipulating races w/ BS cautions

BobbyFord said:
I don't know why NASCAR has the Fan Council if they aren't listening to the fans. We can't be the only ones that feel this way. NASCAR could easily make overall improvement if they would just listen to the fans. JMO.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for Nascar but many organizations send out surveys and really don't give a crap if they are getting accurate information. Many of the questions are innocuous, leading or of the "do you love your mother" variety.
 
ted@economy said:
Not true kemo sabbe , I do believe they exist . Just like I do believe aliens exist . I'm just not 100% sure that I have seen either one . I think that I have , just not sure .
Click to expand...

My mistake and I apologize as I thought you felt they didn't exist. I have had Lew the Shoe make enough incorrect assumptions and also put words in my mouth that I don't want to do the same to you.
 
If you were to poll the garage, 100% of the people you spoke to would tell you that there are very real "biases" from NASCAR when making human decisions - like when to throw a caution flag, when to call a race, certain penalties for certain things, letting things by during inspections, etc (btw the same is true in any sport with any human making a judgement call. Biases always exist). A lot of those people's opinions I don't take too seriously, simply because a lot of them just sound like folks bitching. But... the people I've spoken to who work at NASCAR, or who used to have jobs at NASCAR, or who used to work with and/or train NASCAR officials, or the ones who actually quote NASCAR officials' conversations and give me specific details about some things... when those guys tell me biases are real, I tend to believe them. (And they all do.) (Also, again, can't stress this enough - it happens in all sports. That doesn't make it happening in NASCAR right, it just makes it not unique.)

Lastly...don't confuse "manipulating cautions" or "having biases" with "fixing a race." NASCAR absolutely, positively can NOT "fix a race." There's waaaaaaaaay too much out of their control. They can only f*ck with them a bit. In other words, if Danica is P2, and they REALLY wanted her to win...they can throw as many BS cautions as they want to bunch them up. But at some point, she'd still need to win a restart, or come out of the pits p1, etc. As has been said time and time again...if NASCAR had the ability to fix races, Danica would have a win and Jr would have a title...
 
ted@economy said:
Not true kemo sabbe , I do believe they exist . Just like I do believe aliens exist . I'm just not 100% sure that I have seen either one . I think that I have , just not sure .
Click to expand...
If you watched the Fontana race right after Kurt was reinstated then you saw one. And that one I do have on very good authority. Believe it or not, Kubu does have a few sympathizers on the inside.
 
BobbyFord said:
I don't know why NASCAR has the Fan Council if they aren't listening to the fans. We can't be the only ones that feel this way. NASCAR could easily make overall improvement if they would just listen to the fans. JMO.
Click to expand...

I wonder if NFL fans ever complained about the last two minutes of a football game taking 30 minutes to play and completely changing the outcome . I mean , it seems to me that the teams play the first 58 minutes , just keeping it close , then leave it up to the superstar qb to win the game in the final two minutes. Does anyone care that this is obvious manipulation of the outcome by the NFL ? Do fans think this is anything other than manufactured drama ? Maybe they just don't care as much as Nascar fans do.
 
aunty dive said:
There are 2 professional risk management analysts posting. One of them may or not be a former goaltender. I blame them.
Click to expand...

I have given some thought to this potential killer tire issue and as a result am implementing some changes in my day to day life. I am checking the torque of the lug nuts on the wheels of my vehicle daily, I am switching from using a razor blade to an electric shaver and I am considering selling all my vintage amps as I could get electrocuted.

If a rolling tire on pit road represents a clear and present danger then I know I need a complete safety review in all aspects of my life. The mattress is going on the floor tonight just in case I was to roll out of bed and hurt myself. I am going to check out some bumpers and may put it back on the box spring. Will update on this and other areas of safety in my life.
 
ted@economy said:
I wonder if NFL fans ever complained about the last two minutes of a football game taking 30 minutes to play and completely changing the outcome . I mean , it seems to me that the teams play the first 58 minutes , just keeping it close , then leave it up to the superstar qb to win the game in the final two minutes. Does anyone care that this is obvious manipulation of the outcome by the NFL ? Do fans think this is anything other than manufactured drama ? Maybe they just don't care as much as Nascar fans do.
Click to expand...
I don't know. Sounds like a lot of speculation.
 
BOWTIE GUY said:
no they can't make a certain driver win, but they can make sure who doesn't win.
Click to expand...

If they wanted to do that , they could easily do it in pre race inspection without the tv cameras on them . Just fail the car .
 
^^^ I'm surprised you don't wear a bicycle helmet to bed.
 
Allenbaba said:
If you were to poll the garage, 100% of the people you spoke to would tell you that there are very real "biases" from NASCAR when making human decisions - like when to throw a caution flag, when to call a race, certain penalties for certain things, letting things by during inspections, etc (btw the same is true in any sport with any human making a judgement call. Biases always exist). A lot of those people's opinions I don't take too seriously, simply because a lot of them just sound like folks bitching. But... the people I've spoken to who work at NASCAR, or who used to have jobs at NASCAR, or who used to work with and/or train NASCAR officials, or the ones who actually quote NASCAR officials' conversations and give me specific details about some things... when those guys tell me biases are real, I tend to believe them. (And they all do.) (Also, again, can't stress this enough - it happens in all sports. That doesn't make it happening in NASCAR right, it just makes it not unique.)

Lastly...don't confuse "manipulating cautions" or "having biases" with "fixing a race." NASCAR absolutely, positively can NOT "fix a race." There's waaaaaaaaay too much out of their control. They can only f*ck with them a bit. In other words, if Danica is P2, and they REALLY wanted her to win...they can throw as many BS cautions as they want to bunch them up. But at some point, she'd still need to win a restart, or come out of the pits p1, etc. As has been said time and time again...if NASCAR had the ability to fix races, Danica would have a win and Jr would have a title...
Click to expand...

I have never suspected Nascar of even attempting to rig things for a certain car to win and I was really shocked when you said last year that all the chase players at Homestead would have certain things overlooked. I never imagined Nascar going that far but, IMO, a blind man can see that Nascar likes races to be as close as possible and will periodically use the caution flag to help things along. They may go a few weeks without doing anything but then do it several times a race.

I can understand why it would be difficult for some folks to accept Nascar manipulation as everyone wants to believe that a level playing field exists for everyone and no one wants to think something they really like is tainted.
 
ted@economy said:
If they wanted to do that , they could easily do it in pre race inspection without the tv cameras on them . Just fail the car .
Click to expand...
It's not like the car is taken to a private garage behind closed doors to be inspected. Cameras might not be on them, but 10 crew guys sure are.
 
ted@economy said:
I wonder if NFL fans ever complained about the last two minutes of a football game taking 30 minutes to play and completely changing the outcome . I mean , it seems to me that the teams play the first 58 minutes , just keeping it close , then leave it up to the superstar qb to win the game in the final two minutes. Does anyone care that this is obvious manipulation of the outcome by the NFL ? Do fans think this is anything other than manufactured drama ? Maybe they just don't care as much as Nascar fans do.
Click to expand...

When you can't debate......obfuscate!!! I don't follow politics but I bet there has been a lot of it going around recently.

BobbyFord said:
I don't know. Sounds like a lot of speculation.
Click to expand...

Big pigskin fan here and what Ted described and I watch are 2 different things. Maybe he watches the CFL or Arena league.

aunty dive said:
^^^ I'm surprised you don't wear a bicycle helmet to bed.
Click to expand...

I am using my Shoei

ted@economy said:
If they wanted to do that , they could easily do it in pre race inspection without the tv cameras on them . Just fail the car .
Click to expand...

IMO, if you don't believe Allen and all his sources, plus the drivers and former drivers on record plus what your eyes see there is no amount of evidence that will convince you. If Brian France came out and said "We have manipulated certain races and situations for a period of years but we will no longer do so." With all due respect I could hear you say "he didn't really mean it but just said it in order to calm down a bunch of crazy fans."
 
ted@economy said:
I wonder if NFL fans ever complained about the last two minutes of a football game taking 30 minutes to play and completely changing the outcome . I mean , it seems to me that the teams play the first 58 minutes , just keeping it close , then leave it up to the superstar qb to win the game in the final two minutes. Does anyone care that this is obvious manipulation of the outcome by the NFL ? Do fans think this is anything other than manufactured drama ? Maybe they just don't care as much as Nascar fans do.
Click to expand...

This makes absolutely no sense. How is the NFL manipulating the game if a quarterback leads a comeback drive?! An equivalent manipulation would be stopping the game and giving the ball to the team that is behind. Last time I checked, the NFL doesn't do this.
 
29-4 said:
This makes absolutely no sense. How is the NFL manipulating the game if a quarterback leads a comeback drive?! An equivalent manipulation would be stopping the game and giving the ball to the team that is behind. Last time I checked, the NFL doesn't do this.
Click to expand...

Do you think that it always took a half hour to play the final two minutes ? It's contrived , just like the caution clock and the chase , to create drama .
 
ted@economy said:
Do you think that it always took a half hour to play the final two minutes ? It's contrived , just like the caution clock and the chase , to create drama .
Click to expand...

I agree the two minute warning is manufactured drama, though it apparently goes back to a time when there were no field clocks and thus served a purpose at some point. But it is not a manipulation likely to change the outcome like a BS yellow is.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IMO, if you don't believe Allen and all his sources, plus the drivers and former drivers on record plus what your eyes see there is no amount of evidence that will convince you. If Brian France came out and said "We have manipulated certain races and situations for a period of years but we will no longer do so." With all due respect I could hear you say "he didn't really mean it but just said it in order to calm down a bunch of crazy fans."
Click to expand...

I 100% believe Allen , he has never said anything that I disagree with . He is simply restating what we have said before , drivers say stuff . Trying to come between us could go very bad for you Skoal.:boxing:
 
I can't believe this arguing has gone on for 5 pages. :D
Whether or not you want to believe bogus cautions exist or not is really
of no importance to the show/entertainment. It's going to happen.
I prefer to just watch the show. I don't have my head buried in the sand, I know and understand that
"things" happen that make no sense --- so I just focus on the racing. I really don't have an interest in
who wins/loses --- the dog I had in the hunt doesn't race anymore.

I don't like what's happened to my chosen sport --- but the only way I can voice my displeasure is to not
watch TV, buy merchandise, or attend races. I like watching cars go fast.
 
ted@economy said:
Do you think that it always took a half hour to play the final two minutes ? It's contrived , just like the caution clock and the chase , to create drama .
Click to expand...

I have been watching football since the merger and I can't recall ever seeing the final 2 minutes of a game take anywhere near a half hour. In fact it is not uncommon for the players to be running off the field with time still on the clock. What crazy league are you watching?
 
TexasRaceLady said:
I can't believe this arguing has gone on for 5 pages. :D
Whether or not you want to believe bogus cautions exist or not is really
of no importance to the show/entertainment. It's going to happen.
I prefer to just watch the show. I don't have my head buried in the sand, I know and understand that
"things" happen that make no sense --- so I just focus on the racing. I really don't have an interest in
who wins/loses --- the dog I had in the hunt doesn't race anymore.

I don't like what's happened to my chosen sport --- but the only way I can voice my displeasure is to not
watch TV, buy merchandise, or attend races. I like watching cars go fast.
Click to expand...
It's only Tuesday. We gotta hash about something. :(
 
ted@economy said:
I 100% believe Allen , he has never said anything that I disagree with . He is simply restating what we have said before , drivers say stuff . Trying to come between us could go very bad for you Skoal.:boxing:
Click to expand...

the people I've spoken to who work at NASCAR, or who used to have jobs at NASCAR, or who used to work with and/or train NASCAR officials, or the ones who actually quote NASCAR officials' conversations and give me specific details about some things... when those guys tell me biases are real, I tend to believe them.

You would have to re-read the entire post but in the quote I provided Allen didn't mention drivers but instead people employed with or previously employed with Nascar. There is no way I would even think of trying to come between you and Allen even if such a thing was possible. Were you this difficult to deal with when your parents told you Santa and the tooth fairy weren't real............:D

29-4 said:
I agree the two minute warning is manufactured drama, though it apparently goes back to a time when there were no field clocks and thus served a purpose at some point. But it is not a manipulation likely to change the outcome like a BS yellow is.
Click to expand...

I see the 2 minute warning as an established game time out in addition to the 3 each team is given per half. The game resumes with the same down and distance at the same line of scrimmage. If the losing team was set up with a first and goal inside the 5 yard line it would be similar to the bunch them up cautions/wave arounds.

TexasRaceLady said:
I know --- that's why I'm laughing so hard my ribs hurt.
Watching this thread go round, and round, and round is making me dizzy, too.
Click to expand...

At least it is better than the Danica threads lol.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
My mistake and I apologize as I thought you felt they didn't exist. I have had Lew the Shoe make enough incorrect assumptions and also put words in my mouth that I don't want to do the same to you.
Click to expand...
Not guilty! Just holding you accountable in some small way for the things you say, and not really surprised you decline to stand behind some of your statements when called on them. After all, it's the internet, right?

In no way am I a Nascar apologist who supports all their decisions or all their gimmicks. There is plenty I disagree with strongly and post about it. But safety ain't one of 'em, and Nascar has the record to support that. When you say Nascar talks a good game on safety but it's just lip service and they are hypocrites about it, that deserves to be challenged. And when you say that safety initiatives have reduced the excitement of racing and watered down the sport, like knitting, that cavalier attitude should be called out as well.

Meanwhile, you're having a lot of fun with that tire at Watkins Glen, but that is not what I've been riled up about. On that, I'll just say DPK had it right *if* that is how that deal went down, and I have no problem with the rules being followed consistently. I'm much more unhappy about inconsistent rulings which are all too frequent.
 
Allenbaba said:
If you watched the Fontana race right after Kurt was reinstated then you saw one. And that one I do have on very good authority. Believe it or not, Kubu does have a few sympathizers on the inside.
Click to expand...
BobbyFord said:
That late Fontana caution was blatant.
Click to expand...
Painfully blatant, even though it gave my guy a shot at the win which he converted. Kurt took the high road in the post race interview, but he must have been seething just a millimeter below the surface.
 
I love any caution that directly benefits my driver and hate any caution that does the opposite. The rest are just a nice opportunity to refill my beverage, grab a snack or hit the head.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Not guilty! Just holding you accountable in some small way for the things you say, and not really surprised you decline to stand behind some of your statements when called on them. After all, it's the internet, right?

In no way am I a Nascar apologist who supports all their decisions or all their gimmicks. There is plenty I disagree with strongly and post about it. But safety ain't one of 'em, and Nascar has the record to support that. When you say Nascar talks a good game on safety but it's just lip service and they are hypocrites about it, that deserves to be challenged. And when you say that safety initiatives have reduced the excitement of racing and watered down the sport, like knitting, that cavalier attitude should be called out as well.

Meanwhile, you're having a lot of fun with that tire at Watkins Glen, but that is not what I've been riled up about. On that, I'll just say DPK had it right *if* that is how that deal went down, and I have no problem with the rules being followed consistently. I'm much more unhappy about inconsistent rulings which are all too frequent.
Click to expand...

As I said earlier we have failure to communicate so it doesn't make much sense in attempting a dialogue at least concerning this issue. I have never had an issue in defending what I believe or what I have said but when things attributed to me are fabricated, taken out of context, misconstrued or completely misunderstood there ain't much that can be accomplished.
 
Unless it is the size of a fender or bigger, the safer course of action is not to bundle up the field for a restart.
 
NASCAR needs halftime break. Crews could make adjustments without fear of losing a lap. Almsot all major sports have a halftime break. Even MLB has a 7th inning stretch. This is clearly the best balance between field buildup excitement and cheating. Segments take too long and seem fake.
 
4tires17gals said:
NASCAR needs halftime break. Crews could make adjustments without fear of losing a lap. Almsot all major sports have a halftime break. Even MLB has a 7th inning stretch. This is clearly the best balance between field buildup excitement and cheating. Segments take too long and seem fake.
Click to expand...

NASCAR needs a halftime break the same way it needed lucky dogs and a lottery championship. Let's stop trying to turn racing into some other sport
 
LewTheShoe said:
Painfully blatant, even though it gave my guy a shot at the win which he converted. Kurt took the high road in the post race interview, but he must have been seething just a millimeter below the surface.
Click to expand...
Seething wouldn't be the right word. More like emotionally drained & defeated. I spoke to him on the phone for about an hour that night. He wanted to quit. At times he sounded like he was crying. He kept saying, "they're never going to let me win again, so what's the point of competing in this series?" Obviously I knew the "I should just quit" part was his emotions talking, but thinking back to that time, it really was a pretty difficult thing to swallow. Everyone on the inside knew he was framed. No one other than the CEO of GM wanted him suspended, but he was anyway, and just for optics. Non-NASCAR fans are blowing up his social media accounts because the "victim" decides to travel the country going on every single talk show that would have her (heck, half the people here were calling him a wife beater). The state takes FOREVER to announce they aren't pressing charges (should have been done over the winter. There was so much damning evidence against her that wasn't allowed in the restraining order trial because it involved her son...but Attorney General, state council & investigators all knew the boy's testimony. We were told there was going to be a "no charges" announcement by Christmas. Instead it comes in March.") Anyway...at the time...it felt like it was finally over. And then they throw a BS caution, because (and I'm paraphrasing what I was told from the inside) "him winning so close to this ordeal would have generated the wrong headlines." And that's that.

The whole time he was saying he should just leave and pursue a different series...it was really hard not to agree. I questioned him staying in NASCAR myself. It was so deflating. Luckily, a lot of people had his back. And there was a lot of closed door yelling and even threats made by people rich enough to make them. Some top drivers and owners voiced displeasure as well. Who knows if it was because they liked Kurt or not...remember, this was also the start of the RTA & drivers being more vocal about how the sport's run. They could have only been defending Kurt because it was a black eye on how the sport was run, and they were using it to their advantage. Either way, I suspect the message was heard.
 
Allenbaba said:
Seething wouldn't be the right word. More like emotionally drained & defeated. I spoke to him on the phone for about an hour that night. He wanted to quit. At times he sounded like he was crying. He kept saying, "they're never going to let me win again, so what's the point of competing in this series?" Obviously I knew the "I should just quit" part was his emotions talking, but thinking back to that time, it really was a pretty difficult thing to swallow. Everyone on the inside knew he was framed. No one other than the CEO of GM wanted him suspended, but he was anyway, and just for optics. Non-NASCAR fans are blowing up his social media accounts because the "victim" decides to travel the country going on every single talk show that would have her (heck, half the people here were calling him a wife beater). The state takes FOREVER to announce they aren't pressing charges (should have been done over the winter. There was so much damning evidence against her that wasn't allowed in the restraining order trial because it involved her son...but Attorney General, state council & investigators all knew the boy's testimony. We were told there was going to be a "no charges" announcement by Christmas. Instead it comes in March.") Anyway...at the time...it felt like it was finally over. And then they throw a BS caution, because (and I'm paraphrasing what I was told from the inside) "him winning so close to this ordeal would have generated the wrong headlines." And that's that.

.
Click to expand...

Allen, not sure if you've stated your role on here or not, but the information I highlighted represents a level of corruption that would force the commissioner to resign in any sport. Can you imagine if it came out that the NCAA told officials to call penalties on Florida State just because Jameis Winston was unpopular? Is there any chance the source of that information would come forward? This backs up the manipulation that most of us on here believe exists, and it absolutely has to end.
 
29-4 said:
Allen, not sure if you've stated your role on here or not, but the information I highlighted represents a level of corruption that would force the commissioner to resign in any sport. Can you imagine if it came out that the NCAA told officials to call penalties on Florida State just because Jameis Winston was unpopular? Is there any chance the source of that information would come forward? This backs up the manipulation that most of us on here believe exists, and it absolutely has to end.
Click to expand...
NASCAR is its own mob, police force, governing body, etc.
 
BobbyFord said:
NASCAR is its own mob, police force, governing body, etc.
Click to expand...

You're right, of course. But the public pressure that would result from these allegations being made public could force France out, I believe. I'm also not sure about the legality of such blatant fixing of what is presented to the public as an honest competition.
 
29-4 said:
You're right, of course. But the public pressure that would result from these allegations being made public could force France out, I believe. I'm also not sure about the legality of such blatant fixing of what is presented to the public as an honest competition.
Click to expand...
But we fans already know. It is obvious.
They got us by the short hairs because nothing can replace NASCAR auto racing.
 
BobbyFord said:
But we fans already know. It is obvious.
They got us by the short hairs because nothing can replace NASCAR auto racing.
Click to expand...

Those of us that watch every week know this, but the average member of the sports public doesn't. I think if the source of Allen's quote (or maybe even Allen) could come forward, it would make a huge splash. It would be talked about on ESPN. It would make newspapers that don't usually cover racing. It would probably force out a guy who has probably done the most to destroy a sport he was in charge of in American history.
 
NASCAR is a privately held company owned by a single family, right? I mean...who would the source even come forward to? What proof would they have? It's not like you'll find a paper trail. At the end of the day, NASCAR is in the entertainment business. And a DV headline would have been bad. Intellectually, I get it. Doesn't mean I like it. But I'm smart enough to know why they wouldn't want him winning his 2nd race back to me. It's bad for business.

And in terms of "skirting the rules" just about every single team has, at one time, been the recipient of a "favor" from NASCAR. Plus, all of them "cheat" on a weekly basis (or at least have been busted for something). So what moral ground would ANYONE competing in NASCAR even have to stand on? The entire garage is "corrupt." And I use that word VERY loosely...because, at the end of the day, it's just a bunch of fast cars going around in circles so we can drink beer, hang out with friends, and have a good time. It's really not important in the grand scheme of things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom