Manipulating races w/ BS cautions

aunty dive said:
Things become "culture" over time. NASCAR does not exist in a vacuum.

If in fact previous generations of owners and their managers sought to "improve" upon the product, those practices have directly affected operations today.
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I see what you are saying but, IMO, if something rotten is going on it represents an opportunity to change the culture of the organization and bring it to the level it needs to be. No fan of racing or sport should ever expect perfection as the human element will always ensure someone is getting something they don't deserve either good or bad.

The WWE does not try to pass itself off as being real and most of us have enough sense to understand that reality shows are about manufactured drama as opposed to anything real. However Nascar passes itself of as a sport with rules and integrity in the application of rules yet on a regular basis takes liberties. There will be times where judgement calls have to be made and there will be times when the wrong call is made and that is OK. What isn't OK is to deliberately, either through omission or commission, alter the course of a race in any way shape or form. If they want to do things that way then have a disclaimer run periodically throughout the race explaining it.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I see what you are saying but, IMO, if something rotten is going on it represents an opportunity to change the culture of the organization and bring it to the level it needs to be. No fan of racing or sport should ever expect perfection as the human element will always ensure someone is getting something they don't deserve either good or bad.
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I thought we were discussing what may or may not have been going on in the past and what's going on now ... not what they should do about it if it was and/or still is.
 
aunty dive said:
I thought we were discussing what may or may not have been going on in the past and what's going on now ... not what they should do about it if it was and/or still is.
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You can't change the past but you can sure change the culture of the present and shape the future if the desire is there. As I said I think Nascar can do whatever it sees fit to do but if you are going to be in the business of artificially shaping races it should be disclosed so prospective viewers can make an informed choice. I don't mean that specific incidents should be disclosed but just a boilerplate statement that alerts people. It seems like a fair trade off.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
You can't change the past but you can sure change the culture of the present and shape the future if the desire is there. As I said I think Nascar can do whatever it sees fit to do but if you are going to be in the business of artificially shaping races it should be disclosed so prospective viewers can make an informed choice. I don't mean that specific incidents should be disclosed but just a boilerplate statement that alerts people. It seems like a fair trade off.
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Nothing new here.
 
aunty dive said:
Nothing new here.
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Actually it is all new compared to what they are doing now. Would you like to see Nascar run its series in an above board manner or are you in the camp that thinks they already do or the camp that doesn't give a fig as long as the cars are racing anti-clockwise.
 
I meant nothing new in your response.

And there's nothing new in that one either.
 
aunty dive said:
I meant nothing new in your response.

And there's nothing new in that one either.
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I was just wondering if you had an opinion on whether Nascar periodically manipulates races. It isn't a trick question!
 
You've asked me that before.

Yes, I believe that from time to time, they throw a debris caution in order to bunch the field and force a restart. It appears to be less frequent so far this season than it has been in the past few.

Anything else is, in my opinion, speculation based upon hearsay.
 
I do drink like a fish aunty, but I was kidding about the Martinsville. You'll do pretty good jail time for that kind of nonsense.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I was just wondering if you had an opinion on whether Nascar periodically manipulates races. It isn't a trick question!
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If I may butt in....No. I don't believe that NASCAR manipulates races. I just don't. IF, however, I am wrong, it makes what the 78 did at the Coke 600 and what Kyle did in Indy even more amazing IMO.
 
If aNASCAR is not careful, the body may get sued. People in Las Vegas bet on the winner. It is illegal to manipulate the winner like NASCAR does.
 
Damn right NASCAR manipulate's these races! It's so freakin' obvious a blind man can see it. :mad:

Now excuse me while I go look for my Dale Earnhardt Jr. Cup Championship t-shirt. It's gotta be around here somewhere.
 
aunty dive said:
Just ask Mark Martin.
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That brings up a great point. I don't think that we give the powers that be @ NASCAR nearly enough credit. They actually had the foresight to penalize Mark Martin's team clear back in race #2 of that 29 race season enough points to cause him to loose the 1990 Winston Cup Championship to Dale Earnhardt. It would have been waaay to obvious had they waited until the last race of the season. Bravo NASCAR!
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
That brings up a great point. I don't think that we give the powers that be @ NASCAR nearly enough credit. They actually had the foresight to penalize Mark Martin's team clear back in race #2 of that 29 race season enough points to cause him to loose the 1990 Winston Cup Championship to Dale Earnhardt. It would have been waaay to obvious had they waited until the last race of the season. Bravo NASCAR!
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Here ya dropped this. :sarcasm:
 
The sanctimonious outrage from a few peeps in this thread is hilarious. That Kurt Busch caution flag was a bad deal, but I believe that type of targeting is scarcer than hens teeth. That still doesn't excuse the action, but I believe NASCAR is a fair game. It is manipulated to create drama and excitement, as are essentially all sports. The greatest manipulation to create drama is that ridiculous points scale, which prevents the best team or best driver from racking up a big points lead. Rather than fix that, NASCAR went the other way, with a Win And You're In Chase that creates new problems. I hate late phantom debris cautions, and glad they have been absent this year, but they're the same for everyone. The most persuasive fact is the absence of Dale Jr's championship.
 
I have never believed that nascar was intentionally biased, so the manipulation term is a little outside of credibility imo. And most drivers whine and believe they favor someone else, that will always be the case.
But BS cautions are real and have been the standard op for quite some time. And it is hard to believe that is even a debatable point.

My gripe had nothing to do with how it effects a particular driver. The DVR point means nothing to me either, I work a lot of and Sundays and already have to DVR more than I care too. But I expect a race to last for hours and I am not put off simply by the extra time a caution takes.

It is all about interfering with the race and not letting it happen imo. I want long green runs, green pit cycles. Fatigue driven mistakes to be costly, it shouldn't be charitable. If you miss the set up, tough ****. That doesn't mean I am opossed to justified cautions. There is a balance and I do believe Nascar exploits the need for safety to justify the need to tighten up the feild.

There is nothing better than watching them battle for 200 plus miles under a continuous green. If there isnt an entertaining battle on the track under those conditions it is your fault, especially if you are present at the track.
And on the rare occasions when a long green is allowed, the broadcasters are just as guilty for not finding the best races within the race, instead of try to fill the time with their charisma.
An interesting battle can be found, if they would just drop the trying to be the coolest announcer crap and do some actual race reporting.

And folks that are pissed about lame cautions are passionate about racing too. Being passionate about racing doesn't require you to be a nascar lackey yes man, or to deny that nascar could practice a little more integrity.

This post was made possible by the support of : Cooter Johnsons Juniors the III, Tatyana, Dingleberry, and Tush
 
"It is all about interfering with the race and not letting it happen imo. I want long green runs, green pit cycles."

It never bothered me back in the good old days when the leader was on a lap of his own, the second and third place cars were a lap down, the fourth place car was 3 laps down etc etc. I would rather have a race play out naturally then have most of the field finishing on the lead lap due to cautions, free passes and wave arounds.

I think the overwhelming majority of cautions Nascar calls are for just cause but the bogus bunch-em-up are annoying as it breaks the momentum of the race and deprives us of all the things you mentioned. I was taught from a young age that no matter what competition you are engaged in the object was to pound your opponent(s) into submission and to lot not let up until you had done so.

I agree that Nascar exploits safety as a means to make more liberal use of the caution flag and to borrow your phrase "it is hard to believe that is even a debatable point." A buddy of mine retired from a school corp and told me that there was never any money available for a project but if you framed it as a safety issue the funding could not come any quicker. Some folks are so concerned with safety in Nascar if they applied the same logic to their own lives they would never leave the house.

I don't think the people who overlook or deny Nascar's shenanigans are necessarily lackeys as there are many longtime fans on here that really dislike a lot of the changes Nascar has made but will stick with Nascar until death do us part as it is very important to them. Some people really like all the charity and drama but I would submit they are not a fan of a sporting competition as charity and competition are mutually exclusive.
 
Greg said:
I have never believed that nascar was intentionally biased, so the manipulation term is a little outside of credibility imo. And most drivers whine and believe they favor someone else, that will always be the case.
But BS cautions are real and have been the standard op for quite some time. And it is hard to believe that is even a debatable point.

My gripe had nothing to do with how it effects a particular driver. The DVR point means nothing to me either, I work a lot of and Sundays and already have to DVR more than I care too. But I expect a race to last for hours and I am not put off simply by the extra time a caution takes.

It is all about interfering with the race and not letting it happen imo. I want long green runs, green pit cycles. Fatigue driven mistakes to be costly, it shouldn't be charitable. If you miss the set up, tough sh!t. That doesn't mean I am opossed to justified cautions. There is a balance and I do believe Nascar exploits the need for safety to justify the need to tighten up the feild.

There is nothing better than watching them battle for 200 plus miles under a continuous green. If there isnt an entertaining battle on the track under those conditions it is your fault, especially if you are present at the track.
And on the rare occasions when a long green is allowed, the broadcasters are just as guilty for not finding the best races within the race, instead of try to fill the time with their charisma.
An interesting battle can be found, if they would just drop the trying to be the coolest announcer crap and do some actual race reporting.

And folks that are pissed about lame cautions are passionate about racing too. Being passionate about racing doesn't require you to be a nascar lackey yes man, or to deny that nascar could practice a little more integrity.

This post was made possible by the support of : Cooter Johnsons Juniors the III, Tatyana, Dingleberry, and Tush
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Very well said, Greg. Excellent post, and I agree completely.
 
The 90 had more then there fair share of "accidents" In 1997 at New Hampshire there were like 13 "accidents." Martinsville in the 90 s had several accidents. I think the debris of the 2000s just substitutes for the 3 or 4 extra accidents from the 1990s.
 
4tires17gals said:
The 90 had more then there fair share of "accidents" In 1997 at New Hampshire there were like 13 "accidents." Martinsville in the 90 s had several accidents. I think the debris of the 2000s just substitutes for the 3 or 4 extra accidents from the 1990s.
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The are many legitimate reasons for Nascar to throw a yellow as there could be real debris on track, fluids, rain or an accident. It sounds like you are saying that there were more cautions for legitimate yellow flags in the 90's so in order to keep things similar we need to have bogus cautions today in order to make up for it.

I am not doubting your assertion that the 90's featured more caution periods but do you have any stats or a link showing that there were 3 or 4 extra cautions per race in the 90's?
 
4tires17gals said:
racing reference has some stats
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I checked it out but was unable to find any totals and I don't have the time or trust myself enough to add them up. Anyway for the sake of argument lets say that Nascar used to have about 4 more cautions per race in the 90's because of accidents. Does that make it OK for Nascar to use bogus reasons for using the yellow flag today to compensate for the lack of legitimate ones used back in the 90's. I am trying to understand as if that is the logic it makes no sense to me. Thanks.
 
There could be something to this, there used to be more mechanical failures if nothing else
 
29-4 said:
There could be something to this, there used to be more mechanical failures if nothing else
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Overheating was common and engines grenading was not uncommon back in the 90's and there were less races too.
 
4tires17gals said:
It really was more accidents from the drop snout cars of the 1990s.
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I am not doubting you at all but I thought you may have had access to a database that broke down the number of cautions by year or decade or something like that. Do you think Nascar is doing the right thing by trying to keep the number of cautions in the 21st century relatively similar to what they were in the 90's?
 
is too busy bowling to do math equations. I am really really good. It's a 100 hour a week commitment. I really work with the Olympics.
 
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