Manipulating races w/ BS cautions

Allenbaba said:
NASCAR is a privately held company owned by a single family, right? I mean...who would the source even come forward to? What proof would they have? It's not like you'll find a paper trail. At the end of the day, NASCAR is in the entertainment business. And a DV headline would have been bad. Intellectually, I get it. Doesn't mean I like it. But I'm smart enough to know why they wouldn't want him winning his 2nd race back to me. It's bad for business.

And in terms of "skirting the rules" just about every single team has, at one time, been the recipient of a "favor" from NASCAR. Plus, all of them "cheat" on a weekly basis (or at least have been busted for something). So what moral ground would ANYONE competing in NASCAR even have to stand on? The entire garage is "corrupt." And I use that word VERY loosely...because, at the end of the day, it's just a bunch of fast cars going around in circles so we can drink beer, hang out with friends, and have a good time. It's really not important in the grand scheme of things.
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I understand what you are saying, but I think deep-seated corruption does matter.To me, it's far different for a team to skirt the rules than for the governing body of the sport to manipulate the outcome. I would say come out to ESPN, or a trustworthy motorsports reporter. There doesn't need to be a paper trail, just the publicity of the allegation, from someone who is thought of as a reliable source, could do wonders for the crap we are seeing on a weekly basis.
 
29-4 said:
Those of us that watch every week know this, but the average member of the sports public doesn't. I think if the source of Allen's quote (or maybe even Allen) could come forward, it would make a huge splash. It would be talked about on ESPN. It would make newspapers that don't usually cover racing. It would probably force out a guy who has probably done the most to destroy a sport he was in charge of in American history.
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I have zero proof, just hearsay. And what would my motivation be anyway? I don't think it's rampant. I wouldn't even call it common. If given a segment on ESPN...what would I even say? "Everyone I have ever spoken to has told me that once in a while, NASCAR throws a BS caution because they don't want a driver to win. Or they let certain teams skate by on inspections because they want them to win. It doesn't happen often. And when it does, it's not always successful. Sometimes the guy wins anyway. And the teams they want to win don't. Who has told me these things? I don't want to name names, they might get fired, and this sport has been their whole life." Honestly...who'd give a f*ck about that? It would be like someone from CBS saying "I've heard that occasionally we want the refs to be more strict on the teams playing Duke, because Duke advancing in the tourney brings in good ratings. It's not all the time. And sometimes it doesn't work, and they lose anyway." Who cares. I know enough to know there's not a big enough smoking gun (including consequences) for NASCAR sometimes showing a bias. This kinda thing happens in every single sport. Every. Single. Sport.
 
Allenbaba said:
Seething wouldn't be the right word. More like emotionally drained & defeated. I spoke to him on the phone for about an hour that night. He wanted to quit. At times he sounded like he was crying. He kept saying, "they're never going to let me win again, so what's the point of competing in this series?" Obviously I knew the "I should just quit" part was his emotions talking, but thinking back to that time, it really was a pretty difficult thing to swallow. Everyone on the inside knew he was framed. No one other than the CEO of GM wanted him suspended, but he was anyway, and just for optics. Non-NASCAR fans are blowing up his social media accounts because the "victim" decides to travel the country going on every single talk show that would have her (heck, half the people here were calling him a wife beater). The state takes FOREVER to announce they aren't pressing charges (should have been done over the winter. There was so much damning evidence against her that wasn't allowed in the restraining order trial because it involved her son...but Attorney General, state council & investigators all knew the boy's testimony. We were told there was going to be a "no charges" announcement by Christmas. Instead it comes in March.") Anyway...at the time...it felt like it was finally over. And then they throw a BS caution, because (and I'm paraphrasing what I was told from the inside) "him winning so close to this ordeal would have generated the wrong headlines." And that's that.

The whole time he was saying he should just leave and pursue a different series...it was really hard not to agree. I questioned him staying in NASCAR myself. It was so deflating. Luckily, a lot of people had his back. And there was a lot of closed door yelling and even threats made by people rich enough to make them. Some top drivers and owners voiced displeasure as well. Who knows if it was because they liked Kurt or not...remember, this was also the start of the RTA & drivers being more vocal about how the sport's run. They could have only been defending Kurt because it was a black eye on how the sport was run, and they were using it to their advantage. Either way, I suspect the message was heard.
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There is no question that Kurt got hosed by the Just-Us system and then Nascar piled on.

To switch gears for a moment I was wondering if you had a sense of any concerns Nascar has concerning their future. On one hand they must be thrilled with the TV contracts they signed but are they concerned at all with the overall demographic of the series and/or an erosion in the fan base? Any concerns about the health of teams and sponsorship's, certain tracks or anything else? Thanks.
 
Allenbaba said:
I have zero proof, just hearsay. And what would my motivation be anyway? I don't think it's rampant. I wouldn't even call it common. If given a segment on ESPN...what would I even say? "Everyone I have ever spoken to has told me that once in a while, NASCAR throws a BS caution because they don't want a driver to win. Or they let certain teams skate by on inspections because they want them to win. It doesn't happen often. And when it does, it's not always successful. Sometimes the guy wins anyway. And the teams they want to win don't. Who has told me these things? I don't want to name names, they might get fired, and this sport has been their whole life." Honestly...who'd give a f*ck about that? It would be like someone from CBS saying "I've heard that occasionally we want the refs to be more strict on the teams playing Duke, because Duke advancing in the tourney brings in good ratings. It's not all the time. And sometimes it doesn't work, and they lose anyway." Who cares. I know enough to know there's not a big enough smoking gun (including consequences) for NASCAR sometimes showing a bias. This kinda thing happens in every single sport. Every. Single. Sport.
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Fair enough. The Kurt Busch thing really frustrated me as I read it. I'm no fan of Kurt, but I've never heard of the caution being used to explicitly prevent a driver from winning before. In reading your quote on Kurt, I was thinking that this person had some direct knowledge, which is more than hearsay. I think saying that this goes on in every sport is dismissing a serious problem. Whenever such things have been uncovered in another sport, it has led to serious reforms.
 
Most of you know...deep down...every so often (I'd still classify it as "rarely") there are what appears to be "shenanigans" going on. A BS caution. A questionable penalty. A race called for weather REALLY early. Or really late. A really "serendipitous" pole winner. Etc. It happens only a handful of times a season. Why does me telling you guys (or anyone else) that most in the sport would agree it seems fishy make any difference?
 
BobbyFord said:
But we fans already know. It is obvious.
They got us by the short hairs because nothing can replace NASCAR auto racing.
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I disagree as I know many longtime die hard Nascar fans who walked away as their internal bullschitt meters could no longer abide by what Nascar had become. There are other racing series and many other options to use discretionary time on.
 
Allenbaba said:
Most of you know...deep down...every so often (I'd still classify it as "rarely") there are what appears to be "shenanigans" going on. A BS caution. A questionable penalty. A race called for weather REALLY early. Or really late. A really "serendipitous" pole winner. Etc. It happens only a handful of times a season. Why does me telling you guys (or anyone else) that most in the sport would agree it seems fishy make any difference?
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I won't keep bugging you after this post, but I think an interview/oped by an insider explaining the extent of the manipulation and examples of where it has been used could make a tremendous difference.
 
29-4 said:
I won't keep bugging you after this post, but I think an interview/oped by an insider explaining the extent of the manipulation and examples of where it has been used could make a tremendous difference.
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Again...I don't know my motivation. I don't think it happens enough to be considered a problem. No one has any proof, either. It's not like there's a memo that went out saying "don't let Kurt win yet." I think it was a gut reaction move by a highly paid "employee" who knows Kurt winning would probably be bad for business (and he'd be right). So he "found some debris." I don't think that's a story. It's not like he can prove he was taking orders from a constantly corrupt leader. I don't think he was. I just think he decided last minute to avoid a ****storm. Not enough meat for a story.

I think most of the racing is fair. I think the goal, at the end of the day, is to provide an entertaining product. If that means the final four cars at Miami being allowed 1/50th of an inch more height on their spoiler so that maybe they finish 1-2-3-4, then so be it. No journalist would try and pursue that story. There's no "solid" proof. And they never finish 1-2-3-4. It is what it is. And when I say it happens in every sport, I'm not saying that to make it ok. I'm saying that because it's just not unique enough to be some major deal. Calling a BS caution is no different than calling a BS foul in the closing minute of a basketball game, or a BS pass interference call in the closing minute of a football game. EVERYONE knows it was a BS call. So why isn't there ever a story about them?
 
By the way, the 1/50th of an inch thing is just a hypothetical. So don't quote me on that. I made it up.

I do know the cars are judged slightly differently, just not sure exactly how. But it's not major. Just a very, very slight thing that, if you don't have a good setup to begin with, still won't make enough of a difference.
 
29-4 said:
I understand what you are saying, but I think deep-seated corruption does matter.To me, it's far different for a team to skirt the rules than for the governing body of the sport to manipulate the outcome. I would say come out to ESPN, or a trustworthy motorsports reporter. There doesn't need to be a paper trail, just the publicity of the allegation, from someone who is thought of as a reliable source, could do wonders for the crap we are seeing on a weekly basis.
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I hate to say it but I don't think most of the current fan base in Nascar cares about their machinations as they just want to see cars going counter clockwise as often as possible. The desire to see 36 races per year trumps a lottery championship, a likely caution clock, bogus cautions and turning a blind eye to other things. If people were as committed to their spouse as the current fan base is to Nascar the divorce rate would plummet.
 
I just want to watch cars go fast with some drama thrown in for fun. Worrying about conspiracies and the behind the scenes politics is about the most worthless way to spend time imaginable. And this is coming from someone who is very good at wasting time.
 
Matthew2470 said:
I just want to watch cars go fast with some drama thrown in for fun. Worrying about conspiracies and the behind the scenes politics is about the most worthless way to spend time imaginable. And this is coming from someone who is very good at wasting time.
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That is cool as you kind of are describing my feelings about sausage as I like it but don't want to know what's inside or how it is made.
 
29-4 said:
You don't consider what Allen described as blatant fixing? Not sure what else you'd call it if a caution was thrown explicitly to prevent one person from winning.
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You can debate this until all the cows are in the barn but your not going to change anything.
When a person posts their opinion, you can counter with your own opinion. Insulting that person is not going to change their opinion. Posting provable facts may.
 
29-4 said:
You don't consider what Allen described as blatant fixing? Not sure what else you'd call it if a caution was thrown explicitly to prevent one person from winning.
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I really appreciate the people who have essentially said "I am Nascar fan and I don't care that manipulation and out and out fraud occur as I like the series and it entertains me." However there are probably a few fans that believe everything they see is above board and are put out that anyone would challenge that notion. Just as there are probably some folks that believe the WWE is real there are some that believe Nascar is a righteous sanctioning body that would not intentionally do anything untoward.

I really like Nascar when races are allowed to unfold as events would have them do. If a car gets a lap down then so be it and if 10 cars are on the lead lap I am good with that too. I don't need attempts at trying to gerrymander game 7 moments more than I just need to see something authentic. I would have much more respect for Nascar if they reset the field 3 or 4 times a race and allowed all the cars laps down to be on the lead lap or place the top running cars at the back of the field instead of handing out speeding tickets.
 
29-4 said:
You don't consider what Allen described as blatant fixing? Not sure what else you'd call it if a caution was thrown explicitly to prevent one person from winning.
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By now, it occurs to me that our friend Mr. Baba might regret the post.

Your ridiculous responses forced him to make the point that all of this is hearsay. You can look that up ... it might help you to stay grounded.
 
Team Penske said:
You can debate this until all the cows are in the barn but your not going to change anything.
When a person posts their opinion, you can counter with your own opinion. Insulting that person is not going to change their opinion. Posting provable facts may.
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Not sure who is insulting a person in this thread....I argue that throwing a yellow to prevent a person from winning is blatant fixing. Ted apparently disagrees, I challenged that?
 
Team Penske said:
You can debate this until all the cows are in the barn but your not going to change anything.
When a person posts their opinion, you can counter with your own opinion. Insulting that person is not going to change their opinion. Posting provable facts may.
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Most people get out of bed everyday with their minds made up about most things and even if it can be shown that the way they feel about something is incorrect it doesn't change anything. I was on a forum with a person once and he said Ford used to own Harley Davidson to which I promptly disagreed with and showed where that was not the case. It didn't change what the person believed on iota.
 
aunty dive said:
By now, it occurs to me that our friend Mr. Baba might regret the post.

Your ridiculous responses forced him to make the point that all of this is hearsay. You can look that up ... it might help you to stay grounded.
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Yes, wanting the sport to be run in an honest fashion is quite ridiculous. If you're content with outcomes being determined by fake cautions, great. I have higher standards for this sport I've watched since I was a little kid.
 
aunty dive said:
By now, it occurs to me that our friend Mr. Baba might regret the post.

Your ridiculous responses forced him to make the point that all of this is hearsay. You can look that up ... it might help you to stay grounded.
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A wise old person once told me that "where there is smoke there is fire" and there certainly is an abundance of smoke circling Nascar.
 
29-4 said:
Not sure who is insulting a person in this thread....I argue that throwing a yellow to prevent a person from winning is blatant fixing. Ted apparently disagrees, I challenged that?
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For whatever reasons there are a contingent of people that can stare at the obvious and yet deny its existence and that is possibly the realm we are getting into now. If 2 people are discovered on small island and one of them has a bullet in the back of his head and the other is standing with a smoking gun in his hand it seems self evident as to what took place. Some people would rather argue that a monkey from Mars beamed in and shot the person, place the smoking gun in the hand of the living person and beamed back to Mars.
 
29-4 said:
Yes, wanting the sport to be run in an honest fashion is quite ridiculous. If you're content with outcomes being determined by fake cautions, great. I have higher standards for this sport I've watched since I was a little kid.
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Do you actually believe that this is a recent phenomenon? That the two previous generations of the France family and their managers were above such things?

You can't possibly be that naive.
 
aunty dive said:
There certainly is.

Pot smokers?
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Nothing wrong with some fat sticky buds but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I think Jean Chretien summed things up well when it comes to Nascar taking liberties when he said "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
 
aunty dive said:
Do you actually believe that this is a recent phenomenon? That the two previous generations of the France family and their managers were above such things?

You can't possibly be that naive.
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Just to be clear you aren't saying that it has always been this way and therefore should remain so are you? In terms of Nascar it doesn't really matter what happened in the past when things were more easily hidden and covered up. What matters is the type of organization it is today and what it can become in the future, IMO.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Just to be clear you aren't saying that it has always been this way and therefore should remain so are you? In terms of Nascar it doesn't really matter what happened in the past when things were more easily hidden and covered up. What matters is the type of organization it is today and what it can become in the future, IMO.
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No. I didn't attempt to justify any of it.

If it happened in the past it doesn't matter because it was easier to cover it up? Twisted logic, my friend.
 
aunty dive said:
No. I didn't attempt to justify any of it.

If it happened in the past it doesn't matter because it was easier to cover it up? Twisted logic, my friend.
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It was a moot point then as what Nascar did 10-20-50 years ago in terms of race manipulation and fixing has no bearing as to what they are doing today.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Leave the thread for a few days and it's gone from errant tires and dirt on the track to fixing races. Man, the off week can't be over soon enough. :D
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Very true.
Some of the people in this thread seem to think that they are actually capable of changing someone else's mind and that their visions of some impossible NASCAR utopia where all is pure and beyond reproach from human emotion and economic realities.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Leave the thread for a few days and it's gone from errant tires and dirt on the track to fixing races. Man, the off week can't be over soon enough. :D
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It is a blast as it is much more fun then talking about a race that is 10 days or so away and it is interesting to hear different perspectives on how folks feel about Nascar race manipulation.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Very true.
Some of the people in this thread seem to think that they are actually capable of changing someone else's mind and that their visions of some impossible NASCAR utopia where all is pure and beyond reproach from human emotion and economic realities.
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I sure hope that no one thinks they can change anyone's mind as there are people who deny the lunar landing and the Holocaust so with that being said I doubt a little thing like Nascar manipulating races is even a blip on the radar screen.

I was talking to a school administrator the other day who will be retiring at the end of the year. He was telling me that when he began his career if a student got in trouble at that was just the beginning of it as there was also trouble at home. He said now days if a student gets in trouble at school the parent does not believe what the school is telling them and takes the side of the child. People believe what they want to believe.
 
aunty dive said:
Do you actually believe that this is a recent phenomenon? That the two previous generations of the France family and their managers were above such things?

You can't possibly be that naive.
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No, I'm aware of stories like Wendell Scott being screwed in the 1960s. But I don't think the phenomenon was so common during the era that my exposure to NASCAR began-the 1990s (I'm expecting a certain Mark Martin post will follow this). I would also argue that even if corruption has always existed, it is not a good reason to ignore it.
 
29-4 said:
No, I'm aware of stories like Wendell Scott being screwed in the 1960s. But I don't think the phenomenon was so common during the era that my exposure to NASCAR began-the 1990s (I'm expecting a certain Mark Martin post will follow this). I would also argue that even if corruption has always existed, it is not a good reason to ignore it.
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That is why I said I thought Aunty's comment regarding corruption in Nascar's past was moot as it has no bearing on today.

The bottom line as I see it is that there are a group of dedicated Nascar fans that are not crazy about some of the rules currently in place who also understand that Nascar is not always above board but it has no bearing on them participating in the series they love. There are other fans who believe that Nascar is above board in the way they do business and will continue to participate in the series they love. Then there are one or 2 people who wonder what the hell is going on as if it is an open secret Nascar manipulates why not fix it and put an end to it. And so it goes.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
That is why I said I thought Aunty's comment regarding corruption in Nascar's past was moot as it has no bearing on today.
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Things become "culture" over time. NASCAR does not exist in a vacuum.

If in fact previous generations of owners and their managers sought to "improve" upon the product, those practices have directly affected operations today.
 
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