Silly Season 2023

StandOnIt

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If Monster was an SHR sponsor, why haven't they been a sponsor for any of the other SHR drivers since Kurt left?

Who sponsored the 98 before Herbst got there?

Who sponsored Herbst when he drove for JGR?
what does that have to do with Monster sponsoring Kurt Busch or Riley Herbst at SHR.
 

2 Sweet

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what does that have to do with Monster sponsoring Kurt Busch or Riley Herbst at SHR. Move on with the head games somewheres else.

Here's the post you quoted....

I wonder how much the B2B actually contributes. Those kids pay and then put a logo on the car to pretend they don’t. Just like Herbst Monster deal.

Here was your response to that post.....

Monster has been a sponsor at SHR for a long time, back when Kurt drove for them.

What is your point, exactly?
 

2 Sweet

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We just couldn't make it work for Kyle, we just hate it. He was like family to us. We were FORCED to put Ty in the 18 car and we will try to suffer thru the change and have Ty try his best to match Kyle's phenomenal 4 wins in the last three years.

Ty Gibbs drives for Joe Gibbs

Monster sponsors him

It's a Toyota
 

Formerjackman

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Monster has been a sponsor at SHR for a long time, back when Kurt drove for them.
A more accurate description of the situation is that SHR has employed two drivers who had existing deals with Monster. When Kurt left, the Monster deal went with him. If Herbst leaves, the Monster deal will likely go with him. I certainly had no trouble understanding the OP’s point, not sure why you do.
 

Biggreen695

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Take a shot every time you read the word the “sponsor” in the last 40 posts and see how long it takes to get drunk


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Revman

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I wonder if @Revman has any insight towards this.

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Thanks for asking. Much to unpack here as they say.....

In thinking about re-signing Kyle.......

Wants 10 million, but the market won't support that and Coach doesn't have the sponsorship for that. Many still feel that all Toyota has to do is sign a check. That is such bull****. Toyota Racing has a budget issued through Toyota North America. TRD is separate from that. That budget goes through Japan, but really, Japan doesn't touch Toyota Racing and/or TRD...Toyota Racing/TRD's dealings have to go through Toyota NA and Toyota Racing/TRD used to answer to Bob Carter. Bob just retired at the end of June. While I am sure there is some cash that Toyota might want to send Kyle's way, the real bargaining tool is what they can do for Kyle and his Truck Team. Engines are completely out of the conversation obviously, so we are down to engineering, etc. and Driver Development. A point of clarity here....Toyota Racing and TRD are not one in the same. Toyota Racing is about the PSA's, promotion, customer relationships, B to B stuff. TRD are the racing guys. Engineering, building, etc....and under David's leadership.....drivers. Lee White always said that he hated drivers because they were the most inconsistent engineering variable....David's approach has been to try to do everything possible to engineer that variable.
I am guessing that any engineering support is probably already just handed to Kyle....so not much more they can do there.....Now, Driver Development.....This is really a very hot Toyota topic. Some history.....Lee White refused to get involved with drivers and/or their development as I mentioned. He wanted that to be a team thing. When David Wilson took over, there was a change in direction. David acknowledged that change on a podcast with Nate Ryan several years ago. That change in direction was accelerated when Larson got away.
Christopher Bell is the prized Driver Development graduate. TRD invested 20 million in him and he has two wins. Bell is awesome, and I think worth every penny, but how do you sell that to Toyota NA? Those guys aren't racers....and they wanted the cool trophies and photo ops yesterday. The fundamental question from the eye of corporate Toyota is.....Is the Driver Development Program worth it? On paper.....Nope......but I do believe that Toyota NA has faith in David, and this program is important to him.
Having said all of that, I do wonder how critical Kyle is to the Driver Development Program as I does look like the pipeline has slowed to a trickle after Ty.....and to @StandOnIt point....Is Ty really even part of the program when he skipped Trucks? Bottom line.....If Kyle isn't getting anything other than engineering and maybe a driver here and there (someone pointed out that some rides have been purchased), does he need Toyota and/or does Toyota need him in this context? I don't think so. Kyle might even be attractive to Ford who has a wimpy Truck program. Might be a good place to grow, and we know that they are getting caught up in terms of Ford Performance as is Chevy Performance. The TRD model is now a thing in NASCAR--like it or not.
So, the money isn't there....While it is easy for us to say, "Tough **** Kyle, the economy is what it is and you will have to accept less," I will speak for myself in saying that if my boss came to me, and said the same thing, I would be looking elsewhere. Now, here's the deal IMO....It is safe to say that nobody has what Kyle is demanding. I don't think the Toyota connection isn't something that couldn't be replaced. So, like so much in life.....it's down to money. Let's say Coach has 7 million--not the 10 million Kyle is demanding. Let's say SHR has 5-7 million. If you are Kyle, are you going to walk back into that same building knowing that you took a hit, or are you heading to new pastures where you might be the highest paid dude--even though it isn't what you wanted or demanded? I do not believe for one second that Kyle would walk back into the JGR building with that scenario. I think he would take even less that JGR was offering, and start over provided that the manufacturer would be willing to absorb whatever he needs for his Truck team--and I think that is possible.
I think that the "heavy lifting" and "bad spot" that David Wilson refers to is the fact that the 10 million isn't there, and it isn't going to be there....but in conjunction with Toyota, they are looking for something that would give Kyle something more important than the ego that goes with the cash. It was not lost on me that David mentioned Brexton when all of this started....
Another point.....It is conceivable that whatever Coach is offering is less than what Denny is getting with FedEx behind him.....another reason for Kyle to leave. He will not tolerate that. No ****** way.
So, what do I think? The very best scenario for those of us who want him in a Toyota is that he takes a one year deal, and we do this for another year hoping to find more money. I doubt that he will do the one year thing because I think that he would lose bargaining leverage with other teams who might be interested. If you offered everything you could this year, and he goes back to JGR for a year....are you going to turn around and offer the same thing next year? The more likely scenario IMO is that he is going to go. I don't think he is gone, but I think it could be close. As the clock ticks, the situation becomes more dire, and as the races go by without a Kyle win, the harder it is to convince anybody that he should be paid what he is demanding. Want a perfect storm for Kyle to leave? Well, here it is.....
 

Formerjackman

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Thanks for asking. Much to unpack here as they say.....

In thinking about re-signing Kyle.......

Wants 10 million, but the market won't support that and Coach doesn't have the sponsorship for that. Many still feel that all Toyota has to do is sign a check. That is such bull****. Toyota Racing has a budget issued through Toyota North America. TRD is separate from that. That budget goes through Japan, but really, Japan doesn't touch Toyota Racing and/or TRD...Toyota Racing/TRD's dealings have to go through Toyota NA and Toyota Racing/TRD used to answer to Bob Carter. Bob just retired at the end of June. While I am sure there is some cash that Toyota might want to send Kyle's way, the real bargaining tool is what they can do for Kyle and his Truck Team. Engines are completely out of the conversation obviously, so we are down to engineering, etc. and Driver Development. A point of clarity here....Toyota Racing and TRD are not one in the same. Toyota Racing is about the PSA's, promotion, customer relationships, B to B stuff. TRD are the racing guys. Engineering, building, etc....and under David's leadership.....drivers. Lee White always said that he hated drivers because they were the most inconsistent engineering variable....David's approach has been to try to do everything possible to engineer that variable.
I am guessing that any engineering support is probably already just handed to Kyle....so not much more they can do there.....Now, Driver Development.....This is really a very hot Toyota topic. Some history.....Lee White refused to get involved with drivers and/or their development as I mentioned. He wanted that to be a team thing. When David Wilson took over, there was a change in direction. David acknowledged that change on a podcast with Nate Ryan several years ago. That change in direction was accelerated when Larson got away.
Christopher Bell is the prized Driver Development graduate. TRD invested 20 million in him and he has two wins. Bell is awesome, and I think worth every penny, but how do you sell that to Toyota NA? Those guys aren't racers....and they wanted the cool trophies and photo ops yesterday. The fundamental question from the eye of corporate Toyota is.....Is the Driver Development Program worth it? On paper.....Nope......but I do believe that Toyota NA has faith in David, and this program is important to him.
Having said all of that, I do wonder how critical Kyle is to the Driver Development Program as I does look like the pipeline has slowed to a trickle after Ty.....and to @StandOnIt point....Is Ty really even part of the program when he skipped Trucks? Bottom line.....If Kyle isn't getting anything other than engineering and maybe a driver here and there (someone pointed out that some rides have been purchased), does he need Toyota and/or does Toyota need him in this context? I don't think so. Kyle might even be attractive to Ford who has a wimpy Truck program. Might be a good place to grow, and we know that they are getting caught up in terms of Ford Performance as is Chevy Performance. The TRD model is now a thing in NASCAR--like it or not.
So, the money isn't there....While it is easy for us to say, "Tough **** Kyle, the economy is what it is and you will have to accept less," I will speak for myself in saying that if my boss came to me, and said the same thing, I would be looking elsewhere. Now, here's the deal IMO....It is safe to say that nobody has what Kyle is demanding. I don't think the Toyota connection isn't something that couldn't be replaced. So, like so much in life.....it's down to money. Let's say Coach has 7 million--not the 10 million Kyle is demanding. Let's say SHR has 5-7 million. If you are Kyle, are you going to walk back into that same building knowing that you took a hit, or are you heading to new pastures where you might be the highest paid dude--even though it isn't what you wanted or demanded? I do not believe for one second that Kyle would walk back into the JGR building with that scenario. I think he would take even less that JGR was offering, and start over provided that the manufacturer would be willing to absorb whatever he needs for his Truck team--and I think that is possible.
I think that the "heavy lifting" and "bad spot" that David Wilson refers to is the fact that the 10 million isn't there, and it isn't going to be there....but in conjunction with Toyota, they are looking for something that would give Kyle something more important than the ego that goes with the cash. It was not lost on me that David mentioned Brexton when all of this started....
Another point.....It is conceivable that whatever Coach is offering is less than what Denny is getting with FedEx behind him.....another reason for Kyle to leave. He will not tolerate that. No ****** way.
So, what do I think? The very best scenario for those of us who want him in a Toyota is that he takes a one year deal, and we do this for another year hoping to find more money. I doubt that he will do the one year thing because I think that he would lose bargaining leverage with other teams who might be interested. If you offered everything you could this year, and he goes back to JGR for a year....are you going to turn around and offer the same thing next year? The more likely scenario IMO is that he is going to go. I don't think he is gone, but I think it could be close. As the clock ticks, the situation becomes more dire, and as the races go by without a Kyle win, the harder it is to convince anybody that he should be paid what he is demanding. Want a perfect storm for Kyle to leave? Well, here it is.....
That was an extremely well thought out response that covers a lot of bases most don't know or don't think about. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 

Elev8

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Thanks for asking. Much to unpack here as they say.....

In thinking about re-signing Kyle.......

Wants 10 million, but the market won't support that and Coach doesn't have the sponsorship for that. Many still feel that all Toyota has to do is sign a check. That is such bull****. Toyota Racing has a budget issued through Toyota North America. TRD is separate from that. That budget goes through Japan, but really, Japan doesn't touch Toyota Racing and/or TRD...Toyota Racing/TRD's dealings have to go through Toyota NA and Toyota Racing/TRD used to answer to Bob Carter. Bob just retired at the end of June. While I am sure there is some cash that Toyota might want to send Kyle's way, the real bargaining tool is what they can do for Kyle and his Truck Team. Engines are completely out of the conversation obviously, so we are down to engineering, etc. and Driver Development. A point of clarity here....Toyota Racing and TRD are not one in the same. Toyota Racing is about the PSA's, promotion, customer relationships, B to B stuff. TRD are the racing guys. Engineering, building, etc....and under David's leadership.....drivers. Lee White always said that he hated drivers because they were the most inconsistent engineering variable....David's approach has been to try to do everything possible to engineer that variable.
I am guessing that any engineering support is probably already just handed to Kyle....so not much more they can do there.....Now, Driver Development.....This is really a very hot Toyota topic. Some history.....Lee White refused to get involved with drivers and/or their development as I mentioned. He wanted that to be a team thing. When David Wilson took over, there was a change in direction. David acknowledged that change on a podcast with Nate Ryan several years ago. That change in direction was accelerated when Larson got away.
Christopher Bell is the prized Driver Development graduate. TRD invested 20 million in him and he has two wins. Bell is awesome, and I think worth every penny, but how do you sell that to Toyota NA? Those guys aren't racers....and they wanted the cool trophies and photo ops yesterday. The fundamental question from the eye of corporate Toyota is.....Is the Driver Development Program worth it? On paper.....Nope......but I do believe that Toyota NA has faith in David, and this program is important to him.
Having said all of that, I do wonder how critical Kyle is to the Driver Development Program as I does look like the pipeline has slowed to a trickle after Ty.....and to @StandOnIt point....Is Ty really even part of the program when he skipped Trucks? Bottom line.....If Kyle isn't getting anything other than engineering and maybe a driver here and there (someone pointed out that some rides have been purchased), does he need Toyota and/or does Toyota need him in this context? I don't think so. Kyle might even be attractive to Ford who has a wimpy Truck program. Might be a good place to grow, and we know that they are getting caught up in terms of Ford Performance as is Chevy Performance. The TRD model is now a thing in NASCAR--like it or not.
So, the money isn't there....While it is easy for us to say, "Tough **** Kyle, the economy is what it is and you will have to accept less," I will speak for myself in saying that if my boss came to me, and said the same thing, I would be looking elsewhere. Now, here's the deal IMO....It is safe to say that nobody has what Kyle is demanding. I don't think the Toyota connection isn't something that couldn't be replaced. So, like so much in life.....it's down to money. Let's say Coach has 7 million--not the 10 million Kyle is demanding. Let's say SHR has 5-7 million. If you are Kyle, are you going to walk back into that same building knowing that you took a hit, or are you heading to new pastures where you might be the highest paid dude--even though it isn't what you wanted or demanded? I do not believe for one second that Kyle would walk back into the JGR building with that scenario. I think he would take even less that JGR was offering, and start over provided that the manufacturer would be willing to absorb whatever he needs for his Truck team--and I think that is possible.
I think that the "heavy lifting" and "bad spot" that David Wilson refers to is the fact that the 10 million isn't there, and it isn't going to be there....but in conjunction with Toyota, they are looking for something that would give Kyle something more important than the ego that goes with the cash. It was not lost on me that David mentioned Brexton when all of this started....
Another point.....It is conceivable that whatever Coach is offering is less than what Denny is getting with FedEx behind him.....another reason for Kyle to leave. He will not tolerate that. No ****** way.
So, what do I think? The very best scenario for those of us who want him in a Toyota is that he takes a one year deal, and we do this for another year hoping to find more money. I doubt that he will do the one year thing because I think that he would lose bargaining leverage with other teams who might be interested. If you offered everything you could this year, and he goes back to JGR for a year....are you going to turn around and offer the same thing next year? The more likely scenario IMO is that he is going to go. I don't think he is gone, but I think it could be close. As the clock ticks, the situation becomes more dire, and as the races go by without a Kyle win, the harder it is to convince anybody that he should be paid what he is demanding. Want a perfect storm for Kyle to leave? Well, here it is.....
Great post Rev. On top of the driver salary. It’s still going to cost $20-35M to operate a season. Even if Toyota some how fronted the Kyle Busch salary, I think the main issue is finding the sponsorship $ to even get the car to the track for the season. TV money isn’t coming close to covering that. Agree?
 

Revman

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Great post Rev. On top of the driver salary. It’s still going to cost $20-35M to operate a season. Even if Toyota some how fronted the Kyle Busch salary, I think the main issue is finding the sponsorship $ to even get the car to the track for the season. TV money isn’t coming close to covering that. Agree?
Yeah, not even close IMO.
 

Revman

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That was an extremely well thought out response that covers a lot of bases most don't know or don't think about. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Thank you for posting that. Very kind of you.
 

Revman

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The one aspect of all of this that I didn't mention in my lengthy post was something I had mentioned earlier about equity ownership in JGR......Not sure how conceivable this is, but I think that JGR is dealing in something other than cash right now because that isn't going to happen IMO. The likelihood of some ownership piece is very low IMO....just my gut, but it would offset any animosity to could exists should Mr. Hamlin come out of this as the highest paid JGR driver.
 

AuzGrams

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Maybe Kyle Busch in the 51 or 41 SHR entry instead of the 10? Strange to be making friends with Harvick sometimes lol (Charlotte Roval).

Just making up crap on the fly since “Kyle has talked to other teams.” !!
 

wi_racefan

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I have to wonder what Kyle is actually asking for compared to what he's being offered. We'll probably never more than just rumors. I know the 10 million number has been thrown around but I can't imagine he would even realistically think he'd get that

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Revman

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I have to wonder what Kyle is actually asking for compared to what he's being offered. We'll probably never more than just rumors. I know the 10 million number has been thrown around but I can't imagine he would even realistically think he'd get that

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Claire B. Lang is reporting that even if JGR had the sponsorship, they would not give him his number. I was shocked she said that, and I am not sure that she is quoting he sources correctly, but this is what I heard tonight.
 

Revman

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I'll say a couple of things....If Kyle goes....1) He will go on a tear....and 2) He will remind Toyota and JGR about what they gave up after every win......If he goes, you've got a year stop gap driver, and then Ty.....but another seat open as well. This is going to get really interesting IMO.
 

2 Sweet

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I'll say a couple of things....If Kyle goes....1) He will go on a tear....and 2) He will remind Toyota and JGR about what they gave up after every win......If he goes, you've got a year stop gap driver, and then Ty.....but another seat open as well. This is going to get really interesting IMO.

I think Ty would benefit from another year of seasoning in Xfinity, but moving him to Cup a year early wouldn't ruin him IMO. I guess that's foolish to say considering what happened with Logano, so idk.

I just don't understand why JGR would be willing to let Kyle walk. He's still one of the best drivers in the sport and has a hardcore following. This whole situation is weird.
 
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