Silly Season 2023

wi_racefan said:
I have to wonder what Kyle is actually asking for compared to what he's being offered. We'll probably never more than just rumors. I know the 10 million number has been thrown around but I can't imagine he would even realistically think he'd get that

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so how much are other drivers getting just from the teams?, i really dont have a clue.
 
2 Sweet said:
I just don't understand why JGR would be willing to let Kyle walk.
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What Claire B. Lang reported is pretty critical....that being that JGR wouldn't pay even if they had the sponsor. Claire has a tendency to get the facts crossed up, so I am not sure how much there is to this....Having said all of that, I think this is about Kyle grossly overestimating his value, and not giving. If the money isn't there, it isn't there....
 
Revman said:
Thanks for asking. Much to unpack here as they say.....

In thinking about re-signing Kyle.......

Wants 10 million, but the market won't support that and Coach doesn't have the sponsorship for that. Many still feel that all Toyota has to do is sign a check. That is such bull****. Toyota Racing has a budget issued through Toyota North America. TRD is separate from that. That budget goes through Japan, but really, Japan doesn't touch Toyota Racing and/or TRD...Toyota Racing/TRD's dealings have to go through Toyota NA and Toyota Racing/TRD used to answer to Bob Carter. Bob just retired at the end of June. While I am sure there is some cash that Toyota might want to send Kyle's way, the real bargaining tool is what they can do for Kyle and his Truck Team. Engines are completely out of the conversation obviously, so we are down to engineering, etc. and Driver Development. A point of clarity here....Toyota Racing and TRD are not one in the same. Toyota Racing is about the PSA's, promotion, customer relationships, B to B stuff. TRD are the racing guys. Engineering, building, etc....and under David's leadership.....drivers. Lee White always said that he hated drivers because they were the most inconsistent engineering variable....David's approach has been to try to do everything possible to engineer that variable.
I am guessing that any engineering support is probably already just handed to Kyle....so not much more they can do there.....Now, Driver Development.....This is really a very hot Toyota topic. Some history.....Lee White refused to get involved with drivers and/or their development as I mentioned. He wanted that to be a team thing. When David Wilson took over, there was a change in direction. David acknowledged that change on a podcast with Nate Ryan several years ago. That change in direction was accelerated when Larson got away.
Christopher Bell is the prized Driver Development graduate. TRD invested 20 million in him and he has two wins. Bell is awesome, and I think worth every penny, but how do you sell that to Toyota NA? Those guys aren't racers....and they wanted the cool trophies and photo ops yesterday. The fundamental question from the eye of corporate Toyota is.....Is the Driver Development Program worth it? On paper.....Nope......but I do believe that Toyota NA has faith in David, and this program is important to him.
Having said all of that, I do wonder how critical Kyle is to the Driver Development Program as I does look like the pipeline has slowed to a trickle after Ty.....and to @StandOnIt point....Is Ty really even part of the program when he skipped Trucks? Bottom line.....If Kyle isn't getting anything other than engineering and maybe a driver here and there (someone pointed out that some rides have been purchased), does he need Toyota and/or does Toyota need him in this context? I don't think so. Kyle might even be attractive to Ford who has a wimpy Truck program. Might be a good place to grow, and we know that they are getting caught up in terms of Ford Performance as is Chevy Performance. The TRD model is now a thing in NASCAR--like it or not.
So, the money isn't there....While it is easy for us to say, "Tough **** Kyle, the economy is what it is and you will have to accept less," I will speak for myself in saying that if my boss came to me, and said the same thing, I would be looking elsewhere. Now, here's the deal IMO....It is safe to say that nobody has what Kyle is demanding. I don't think the Toyota connection isn't something that couldn't be replaced. So, like so much in life.....it's down to money. Let's say Coach has 7 million--not the 10 million Kyle is demanding. Let's say SHR has 5-7 million. If you are Kyle, are you going to walk back into that same building knowing that you took a hit, or are you heading to new pastures where you might be the highest paid dude--even though it isn't what you wanted or demanded? I do not believe for one second that Kyle would walk back into the JGR building with that scenario. I think he would take even less that JGR was offering, and start over provided that the manufacturer would be willing to absorb whatever he needs for his Truck team--and I think that is possible.
I think that the "heavy lifting" and "bad spot" that David Wilson refers to is the fact that the 10 million isn't there, and it isn't going to be there....but in conjunction with Toyota, they are looking for something that would give Kyle something more important than the ego that goes with the cash. It was not lost on me that David mentioned Brexton when all of this started....
Another point.....It is conceivable that whatever Coach is offering is less than what Denny is getting with FedEx behind him.....another reason for Kyle to leave. He will not tolerate that. No ****** way.
So, what do I think? The very best scenario for those of us who want him in a Toyota is that he takes a one year deal, and we do this for another year hoping to find more money. I doubt that he will do the one year thing because I think that he would lose bargaining leverage with other teams who might be interested. If you offered everything you could this year, and he goes back to JGR for a year....are you going to turn around and offer the same thing next year? The more likely scenario IMO is that he is going to go. I don't think he is gone, but I think it could be close. As the clock ticks, the situation becomes more dire, and as the races go by without a Kyle win, the harder it is to convince anybody that he should be paid what he is demanding. Want a perfect storm for Kyle to leave? Well, here it is.....
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I knew you'd have some insight towards this situation. And it sounds like if you were a guessing man your prediction is that he's leaving.

This makes a lot of sense but what I did not realize is that Mr Bush leaving JGR would mean that he's abandoning Toyota altogether, even it is truck team. That I was not aware of

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2 Sweet said:
I think Ty would benefit from another year of seasoning in Xfinity, but moving him to Cup a year early wouldn't ruin him IMO. I guess that's foolish to say considering what happened with Logano, so idk.

I just don't understand why JGR would be willing to let Kyle walk. He's still one of the best drivers in the sport and has a hardcore following. This whole situation is weird.
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On the topic of Ty. I honestly think one more year of Xfinity and he will be totally cup ready.

As of today he may be one of the 10 best talents in NASCAR. This kid is going to be winning races immediately, as a rookie, imo. It's been 15 years since we've had a rookie come out and win races/make Chase noise/championship noise and I think Ty is the next one to do that.



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jaqua19 said:
I knew you'd have some insight towards this situation. And it sounds like if you were a guessing man your prediction is that he's leaving.

This makes a lot of sense but what I did not realize is that Mr Bush leaving JGR would mean that he's abandoning Toyota altogether, even it is truck team. That I was not aware of

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Yes, I think he is leaving. I really do.
 
jaqua19 said:
On the topic of Ty. I honestly think one more year of Xfinity and he will be totally cup ready.

As of today he may be one of the 10 best talents in NASCAR. This kid is going to be winning races immediately, as a rookie, imo. It's been 15 years since we've had a rookie come out and win races/make Chase noise/championship noise and I think Ty is the next one to do that.



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I think that this raises a great question about what he might get from another year. I think that we can agree that there is no translation between a Cup car and an Xfinity car....So, what does he gain--asking rhetorically.....Maybe: Maturity, Race craft, Race etiquette......... There is a school of thought that is evolving--particularly as Kyle's situation gets more complicated that maybe throwing him in....and allowing some grace particularly next year would be okay.....I question that.
 
jaqua19 said:
On the topic of Ty. I honestly think one more year of Xfinity and he will be totally cup ready.

As of today he may be one of the 10 best talents in NASCAR. This kid is going to be winning races immediately, as a rookie, imo. It's been 15 years since we've had a rookie come out and win races/make Chase noise/championship noise and I think Ty is the next one to do that.



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Maybe, but didn't we hear almost the same thing about Eric Jones and Christopher Bell? Racing will be different for him when he starts competing in cars that aren't substantially better than his competition.
 
Formerjackman said:
Maybe, but didn't we hear almost the same thing about Eric Jones and Christopher Bell? Racing will be different for him when he starts competing in cars that aren't substantially better than his competition.
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We still have yet to figure out how long it takes a Cup driver to come into his own without testing and significant practice. Having said that, we have big buck sponsors who don't care how long it takes. Erik Jones has improved significantly as has Bell.....but again, the bottom line for the wine and cheese people will be trips to victory lane....It's unfortunate.
 
Was listening to Ryan Preece on Sirius and he didn't say what his plans for next year are, but said that things are headed in the right direction.

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Revman said:
What Claire B. Lang reported is pretty critical....that being that JGR wouldn't pay even if they had the sponsor. Claire has a tendency to get the facts crossed up, so I am not sure how much there is to this....Having said all of that, I think this is about Kyle grossly overestimating his value, and not giving. If the money isn't there, it isn't there....
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I wonder if the teams see less value in drivers now that the cars are more evenly matched, Or is Kyle somehow being pushed away by Joe Gibbs in favor of TY, or is Gibbs reminding Kyle he is the boss? It would be fascinating to see Kyle driving for Stewart/Haas or Jordan.
 
Kyle Busch just announced M&M’s deal was $25M a year to Joe Gibbs.

Don’t think we ever heard a big team sponsor contribution ever in recent years. Good benchmark for other sponsors at cup level.
 
9050lx said:
I wonder if the teams see less value in drivers now that the cars are more evenly matched, Or is Kyle somehow being pushed away by Joe Gibbs in favor of TY, or is Gibbs reminding Kyle he is the boss? It would be fascinating to see Kyle driving for Stewart/Haas or Jordan.
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I think Kyle is asking for at least what he has been making, and that ain't gonna happen--not in cash anyway.
 
Revman said:
I think Kyle is asking for at least what he has been making, and that ain't gonna happen--not in cash anyway.
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You're probably right. But if JGR won't pay him what he wants, who will? I feel like he's going to take a pay cut no matter where he ends up, so I don't understand why he can't swallow his pride and stick with JGR. It's his best shot to win races.
 
Elev8 said:
Kyle Busch just announced M&M’s deal was $25M a year to Joe Gibbs.

Don’t think we ever heard a big team sponsor contribution ever in recent years. Good benchmark for other sponsors at cup level.
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If they were paying 25 million a year and still not getting all 36 races that's crazy. I thought they said bubba was bringing 20 million in multiple sponsors to 23XI

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Elev8 said:
Kyle Busch just announced M&M’s deal was $25M a year to Joe Gibbs.

Don’t think we ever heard a big team sponsor contribution ever in recent years. Good benchmark for other sponsors at cup level.
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5 Hour Energy was giving FRR about $10M per year when they left. That M&M’s deal might be the biggest in the sport.
 
2 Sweet said:
You're probably right. But if JGR won't pay him what he wants, who will? I feel like he's going to take a pay cut no matter where he ends up, so I don't understand why he can't swallow his pride and stick with JGR. It's his best shot to win races.
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I don't get the speculation that he'll go somewhere else. Gibbs apparently can't land a sponsor capable of paying Kyle close to what he wants. Why think another team will be able to? If no one else can, why jump ship from a proven winner?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't get the speculation that he'll go somewhere else. Gibbs apparently can't land a sponsor capable of paying Kyle close to what he wants. Why think another team will be able to? If no one else can, why jump ship from a proven winner?
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If this is the case, then why would any athlete in any sport ever switch teams ever?

Some teams have more budget available at different times than the other teams do. Some teams are also proven winners, or can sell the athlete on a path of growth in the team that points to them being able to contend in the near future. Some team owners want to make a splashy signing to give their organization a renewed sense of excitement or kickstart them back to their winning ways.

Several Cup owners (Gene Haas, Rick Hendrick, Roger Penske, Justin Marks/his father, Michael Jordan, likely Matt Kaulig) have more money than Joe Gibbs does from their outside business ventures. If they all really wanted to, they could front Kyle's salary demand. Now, does it make business sense? That's up to them to decide.

With all the 10 car rumors though, you've got a 41 car that's done basically nothing for two years, a 10 car with a driver out the door, and 4 car that hasn't won in about two years now after dominating and has a driver that's nearing retirement. They only have the 14 team right now, really. So it would make sense for Haas to make a bold move to start getting somewhere anyway. Gene did that before when he signed Kurt unexpectedly. Maybe he signs the other Busch brother too. Maybe Cole Custer, even though he's Joe Custer's son, stops getting the house sponsorship and Gene moves his Haas CNC marketing budget to Kyle Busch for the exposure and to see his brand in victory lane again. Who knows. But it's certainly not that far-fetched that Kyle lands elsewhere.
 
wi_racefan said:
If RC couldn't get enough together to keep Reddick I don't see anyway possible he could even come close to getting Kyle

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I’ve never bought Kyle going to RCR when I would see the rumor on social media.
 
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2 Sweet said:
You're probably right. But if JGR won't pay him what he wants, who will? I feel like he's going to take a pay cut no matter where he ends up, so I don't understand why he can't swallow his pride and stick with JGR. It's his best shot to win races.
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Look at it this way.....Kyle can take a cut, and be somebody's highest paid driver, or he can take a cut, and potentially be #2 to Denny. He won't swallow his pride because guys who drive 200 mph tend to have a lot of it I would think. I am not sure that JGR is the place where he can win championships. I have become very concerned since the Next Gen....I get what happened with the previous car, but there are no excuses now, and he struggles. Is it the practice thing? Who knows....but it's in his head now. New surroundings I think would be the ticket to rekindling what is left of Kyle's career (which I think is significant)....and I am not looking forward to it if/when it happens.
 
wi_racefan said:
Memories are short in nascar when people need a job or want a driver

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If RC won't pay Reddick, he isn't paying Kyle. I am thinking he goes to SHR....Tony would give him the environment to stick it in everybody's ear, and Ford needs help with Driver Development.
 
Revman said:
If RC won't pay Reddick, he isn't paying Kyle. I am thinking he goes to SHR....Tony would give him the environment to stick it in everybody's ear, and Ford needs help with Driver Development.
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I don't think he's going anywhere but the only hypothetical place I could see is SHR if Gene wants him like he did with Kurt

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wi_racefan said:
I don't think he's going anywhere but the only hypothetical place I could see is SHR if Gene wants him like he did with Kurt

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I think he's going, but I do agree with the Gene part 100%. I hope I am wrong, but I am prepared if I am right.
 
wi_racefan said:
If they were paying 25 million a year and still not getting all 36 races that's crazy. I thought they said bubba was bringing 20 million in multiple sponsors to 23XI

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You know teams try to take advantage for sponsors as much as they can. Straight money in their pockets. On top of TV/Purse money and bonuses.
 
Elev8 said:
You know teams try to take advantage for sponsors as much as they can. Straight money in their pockets. On top of TV/Purse money and bonuses.
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So they’re covering all of their operating expenses with TV/purse money and bonuses?
 
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