Silly Season 2024

StandOnIt said:
Maybe you could give some shining examples of Sponsors increasingly following drivers around.
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Aric Almirola made an entire career out of Smithfield’s support, Anheuser Busch followed Harvick from RCR to SHR, Bubba took multiple sponsors from Petty to 23XI, 5 Hour Energy followed Clint Bowyer from MWR to Finch, and Monster Energy followed Kurt Busch from SHR to Ganassi to 23XI.

There are also some other possible examples like Liberty University and William Byron and NAPA and Chase Elliott that followed their drivers from the lower tier series to Cup. I’m 99% sure that if those two left Hendrick, the sponsor dollars would follow.

In the last 10-15 years, we’ve seen sponsors be more loyal to drivers than teams.

Busch and Smithfield also left SHR (and the latter left the sport entirely) when their guy retired.

Come on man, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
Sure it is lol. Lets talk Menards, Dupont/Axalta, Hendrick Cars.com, GMAC/Ally, Interstate Batteries, FedX, DeWalt, Bass Pro Shops, Monster, Fastenall, Loves Travel centers, Sorry bud you go ahead with the drama and believe what ya want to. But way more of these sponsors have been affiliated with the owners for a very long time.

The whole thing looks like a bunch of click bait from a guy pushing subscriptions in the off season.
 
StandOnIt said:
Sure it is lol. Lets talk Menards, Dupont/Axalta, Hendrick Cars.com, GMAC/Ally, Interstate Batteries, FedX, DeWalt, Bass Pro Shops, Monster, Fastenall, Loves Travel centers
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Did I ever say that teams didn't have sponsors any more? Increasingly doesn't mean exclusively.

Think about a driver leaving a team. How often does the major sponsor stick around? The #2 Penske car is probably the recent example I can think of. Penske does a good job of keeping sponsors at his team. The #14 SHR car is a maybe but Tony still does ads for the team.

Let's talk Menards. Paul Menard's entire career existed because they followed him from place to place, BPS is a long time sponsor of Martin Truex Jr. and he brought them to JGR (along with Auto Owner's Insurance), and I already used Monster in my above example.

I'll grant you Dupont/Axalta and GMAC/Ally for Hendrick. But those relationships go back 20+ years. Hendrick Cars is literally owned by Rick Hendrick so that's another fail for you. Are you going to count Allegiant for LMC now?

You can count the number of races that Interstate Batteries sponsors on one hand so they're a legacy sponsor but they're also barely there any more.

I'll grant you FedEx, Fastenal, DeWalt, and Love's. I'll even throw you a freebie by mentioning JTG's relationship with Kroger.

We have stories of sponsors having to approve a driver before an owner can put them in the car. We know that sponsors have the final say on whether or not an owner can put a certain driver in the car. You don't have to constantly shill for the owners. There are plenty of examples of sponsors following drivers or leaving the sport entirely when their guy leaves. Sponsors write the checks and they want their guys in the car.
 
StandOnIt said:
I believe almost all of the drivers in all three series are under contract. That means they show up and race.
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Some of us believe in worker's rights. If the drivers unionized, they could collectively bargain for a framework under which these contracts could be negotiated. And you didn't really point anything out. If Rick Hendrick went to Ally and tried to put Kevin Conway in the car, I'm 1000% sure he would get laughed out of the room. Sponsors approve the drivers and they write the checks. A lot of sponsors follow drivers around and others give the green light to the owners on who they can put in their car.

I suggest you listen to stories from people actually in the industry. There was a good story from the Dale Jr. Download about DEI having to pitch Michael Waltrip to NAPA. Dale Sr. was worried that NAPA wouldn't approve of Mikey (which would have killed the deal). To his surprise, they not only approved but were enthusiastic. When Mikey left the team years later, they even followed him.

Again: Sponsors approve the drivers and they write the checks. If the drivers went on strike for a prolonged period of time, the owners would have hell to pay. No one is going to show up to watch some ARCA East driver in the #9 NAPA Chevrolet.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Some of us believe in worker's rights. If the drivers unionized, they could collectively bargain for a framework under which these contracts could be negotiated. And you didn't really point anything out. If Rick Hendrick went to Ally and tried to put Kevin Conway in the car, I'm 1000% sure he would get laughed out of the room. Sponsors approve the drivers and they write the checks. A lot of sponsors follow drivers around and others give the green light to the owners on who they can put in their car.

I suggest you listen to stories from people actually in the industry. There was a good story from the Dale Jr. Download about DEI having to pitch Michael Waltrip to NAPA. Dale Sr. was worried that NAPA wouldn't approve of Mikey (which would have killed the deal). To his surprise, they not only approved but were enthusiastic. When Mikey left the team years later, they even followed him.

Again: Sponsors approve the drivers and they write the checks. If the drivers went on strike for a prolonged period of time, the owners would have hell to pay. No one is going to show up to watch some ARCA East driver in the #9 NAPA Chevrolet.
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Those are isolated examples the majority of sponsors like the owners, the suites and the experiences at the race track.
Reality is drivers aren't unionized.
 
StandOnIt said:
And has been with JGR every since thru many drivers. ;)
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"Many" - The answer here is literally Erik Jones and Christopher Bell. I don't think either was a hard sell for the Preacher to make. You still seem to have no answer for the "isolated examples" you claim I provided.

Here's a tip for you - You don't have to constantly shill for the owners. Rick Hendrick is not going to send you a DM to offer you a job or some exclusive opportunity. You can freely admit that NASCAR's labor relations model is broken and you can also admit that NASCAR's sponsorship model is broken. You don't have to constantly defend the owners. It's okay. The rest of us here can acknowledge the flaws in NASCAR and the way business is conducted.

We follow a sport where a talented guy can be out of a ride if he doesn't bring dollars. You and I both know that a driver's ability to get a ride is tied to his or her ability to bring sponsorship dollars. In fact, you've acknowledged the role of the driver in getting a sponsor here:

StandOnIt said:
You think women are an experiment? You are going to race in the top series if you have money (backing). You can do the GOT TO WIN all ya want, but without backing, you are going to be racing at a short track somewhere in podunk probably. Like Penske says we aren't racing without a sponsor.
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Sponsors are either directly tied to the drivers OR they're sitting in the owner's ear telling them who to put in the car. Part of the track experience for the sponsor is time with the driver. If that driver is on strike or isn't in the car, the sponsors are going to be pissed.
 
The Nature Boy said:
You can count the number of races that Interstate Batteries sponsors on one hand so they're a legacy sponsor but they're also barely there any more.
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I might add that most of Ty Gibbs' merch is in the Interstate theme as Monster is nuts about their logo....and I will throw in that this is a driver-centric series, so sponsors are going to follow them. In the event that they do align with a team, I think they have heavy input into who holds the wheel.
 
The Nature Boy said:
"Many" - The answer here is literally Erik Jones and Christopher Bell. I don't think either was a hard sell for the Preacher to make. You still seem to have no answer for the "isolated examples" you claim I provided.

Here's a tip for you - You don't have to constantly shill for the owners. Rick Hendrick is not going to send you a DM to offer you a job or some exclusive opportunity. You can freely admit that NASCAR's labor relations model is broken and you can also admit that NASCAR's sponsorship model is broken. You don't have to constantly defend the owners. It's okay. The rest of us here can acknowledge the flaws in NASCAR and the way business is conducted.

We follow a sport where a talented guy can be out of a ride if he doesn't bring dollars. You and I both know that a driver's ability to get a ride is tied to his or her ability to bring sponsorship dollars. In fact, you've acknowledged the role of the driver in getting a sponsor here:



Sponsors are either directly tied to the drivers OR they're sitting in the owner's ear telling them who to put in the car. Part of the track experience for the sponsor is time with the driver. If that driver is on strike or isn't in the car, the sponsors are going to be pissed.
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I made my point numerous times, good luck with your opinion.
 
Kyle Busch sold his house and his business after heading over to RCR. Coincidence?
 
Revman said:
Kyle Busch sold his house and his business after heading over to RCR. Coincidence?
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Oh yeah man, they left with everything they had, very little money after sold out Joe let them go.

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StandOnIt said:
whoops. Them durn contracts, they need to disappear or somthin.
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Or a framework needs to exist that isn’t so owner friendly, like almost every other form of mainstream sports or entertainment.

The “independent contractor” BS reminds me of WWE and I don’t think NASCAR should aspire to be that.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Or a framework needs to exist that isn’t so owner friendly, like almost every other form of mainstream sports or entertainment.

The “independent contractor” BS reminds me of WWE and I don’t think NASCAR should aspire to be that.
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Good luck with that. When you first started your rant and the word "contracts" flew over your head I knew it was downhill from there. It's probably way out of the realm to explain that it will be the owners and the principles of Nascar that have negotiated the increases in TV money and that won't be realized to the team owners until year after next. What the team owners and the drivers contracts come up with in agreement at every individual team is anybodies guess. One size doesn't fit all.
 
StandOnIt said:
When you first started your rant and the word "contracts" flew over your head I knew it was downhill from there.
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I don’t think you know what the word “contract” means. You can be an employee with a contract or an independent contractor covered by union protections.

I am a trained lawyer so I think I understand contract law a bit better than you do. Nothing about having a contract precludes one from being a member of a union. In fact, a union allows you to collectively bargain for a fairer contract framework. If they’re forced to work in an unsafe environment (like some claimed with Gen 7), they can go on strike, just like their predecessors did before the first Talladega race.

Think of it this way: Drivers can stop bitching on their podcasts and social media about NASCAR and actually do something productive.
 
The Nascar drivers have what is called Drivers advisory council, Jeff Burton is the head of it, the drivers are/were in the loop in the development of the car, and you can argue (for free) all ya want, but a new platform from the ground up that doesn't use a piece of the old car was developed..AND it is an ongoing project with driver input along with technical people in continuing development of the car. It will continue to move forward with or with out Hamlin's constant squeaking for attention. But go out there and try to organize them and stop bitching on podcasts and social media and actually do something productive.
 
But seriously, the drivers stood down in 1969. Big Bill France had already banned Tim Flock and Curtis Turner for life for engaging in union activity. Earlier in the decade, he had threatened to shoot anyone who formed a union. The drivers (especially Richard Petty) didn't understand the power they had so they caved to a maniac.

If the drivers had stood their ground, NASCAR drivers would be in a better place. Instead, we live in a world where Kyle Busch had to donate money to pay for Sam Ard's care because NASCAR has no pension or health care plan (which a union would have secured). In other sports and entertainment fields, either the union or the sanctioning body provides those things. In NASCAR, you can be a multiple-time champion in a top-tier division and not being able to retire with dignity.

Look, I will never bend the knee for the owners. The drivers are the ones who provide me with entertainment and those are the guys I pay to see. When I buy a ticket to a NASCAR race, I am there to see the drivers, not Rick Hendrick or Richard Childress or Joe Gibbs.

Until NASCAR drivers decide to collectively bargain, I won't take a damn thing they say about "safety" seriously. They have the power to band together and say "enough is enough." The drivers can collectively sit down with the RTA to work out their issues.

StandOnIt said:
Drivers advisory council,
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You mean, a carrot that NASCAR threw the drivers when murmurs of a union started?

www.nbcsports.com

Podcast: Denny Hamlin on a NASCAR drivers union that nearly happened

In the new NASCAR on NBC Podcast, Daytona 500 winner Denny Hamlin says he nearly had every Cup driver ready to organize an association five years ago.
www.nbcsports.com www.nbcsports.com

A sanctioning body "advisory body" is not a ****** union.
 
Unions don't solve all problems. And once again that is only your opinion, it's not reality and in your own words bitching about it on social media accomplishes little if nothing. Lol and believing what Hamlin says is at your expense.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Or a framework needs to exist that isn’t so owner friendly, like almost every other form of mainstream sports or entertainment.
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Note that in other major sports, the team owners also 'own' the league head office, and hire and fire the commissioner. NASCAR is a separate entity with no organizational connection to the team owners.

Another case where comparing motorsports with stick and ball doesn't hold up.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Note that in other major sports, the team owners also 'own' the league head office, and hire and fire the commissioner. NASCAR is a separate entity with no organizational connection to the team owners.

Another case where comparing motorsports with stick and ball doesn't hold up.
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The RTA exists as a collective bargaining unit for the owners and they would bargain with the driver’s union. The RTA and the Driver’s Union would take their agreement to NASCAR. NASCAR literally doesn’t function without the owners and drivers.

The laziest phrase in motorsports is “stick and ball” and I will die on that hill. Motorsports is not a special snowflake.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The RTA exists as a collective bargaining unit for the owners and they would bargain with the driver’s union. The RTA and the Driver’s Union would take their agreement to NASCAR. NASCAR literally doesn’t function without the owners and drivers.

The laziest phrase in motorsports is “stick and ball” and I will die on that hill. Motorsports is not a special snowflake.
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There isn't a players union except in your fantasy world wishes bud. It's been explained what there is, but that continues to fly over your head.
 
StandOnIt said:
There isn't a players union except in your fantasy world wishes bud. It's been explained what there is, but that continues to fly over your head.
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Some of us want better things for the world.

Others are like you.

Heaven forbid I use a discussion forum to discuss things.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The RTA exists as a collective bargaining unit for the owners and they would bargain with the driver’s union. The RTA and the Driver’s Union would take their agreement to NASCAR.
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Are you aware of any other situations where there are three parties to a union contract? I'm not an expert in contract or labor law, I have only the general knowledge of someone who reads the papers. Everything I've seen says there are workers / players and management / owners. Management doesn't have to take it to anyone else, as far as I know.

Thanks.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Some of us want better things for the world.

Others are like you.

Heaven forbid I use a discussion forum to discuss things.
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This is real simple what I am saying. There isn't a union. I haven't said if I am for or against a union so don't put words in my mouth. Reality is there isn't one. I question why there isn't and one of the reasons I came up with is that drivers specifically haven't felt the need to have one. Nobody is stopping them from doing so. The laws have been relaxed recently so that it isn't illegal to do so.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Are you aware of any other situations where there are three parties to a union contract? I'm not an expert in contract or labor law, I have only the general knowledge of someone who reads the papers. Everything I've seen says there are workers / players and management / owners. Management doesn't have to take it to anyone else, as far as I know.

Thanks.
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The corporate structure of NASCAR makes it a bit unique. The owners are the employers here and NASCAR is the sanctioning body. The owners have their own representation to NASCAR though. The existence of RTA makes this a lot easier. I'm not sure if it'd be possible without a collective body of owners with which to negotiate.

It takes a bit of imagination but I have seen some interesting labor contracts so this isn't too outlandish.

  1. Most of your nuts and bolts items are between the owners and drivers (pay, contract terms....etc) so this is where the meat of the agreement happens. The drivers are going to want a pension plan, health insurance, equitable pay, and likely better contract protections (so they can't be dropped without notice..etc.). The drivers will want to include a clause that allows them to strike over safety concerns (which makes the third step easier). NASCAR is the sanctioning body, not the employer so they don't necessarily need
  2. The RTA and Driver's Union can take their agreement to NASCAR, who can ratify or reject it. If there's an issue of dispute, NASCAR could offer their proposed revision and ask the two sides to negotiate a solution. NASCAR has no leverage to outright reject a union negotiated deal since they need the owners and drivers. Without them, they're a real estate company with a TV deal.
  3. The drivers can separately negotiate with NASCAR around safety since NASCAR sets the terms around car design and the RTA can't legally bind NASCAR to something without their permission. This can be formalized by giving the drivers a yearly review of the car, involving the union in the testing process of new safety features, and giving the union the ability to initiate negotiations over the safety of a proposed car design. If the two sides can't agree on a proposed design, it goes to a third party arbitrator (who is ideally an expert in motorsports safety), who can listen to both sides and set the parameters accordingly.
It takes some creative lawyering because of how unique NASCAR's structure is among major sporting sanctioning bodies. They're not the only privately held sports league and motorsports are not alone in having privately held sports league. The XFL is also privately held. They just don't have a union because those guys are only there to try to springboard into the NFL (which has a union). NASCAR is unique in being a major sporting sanctioning body that is privately held.

I'm fine with NASCAR having the final say over the negotiated agreement. I don't think they have enough leverage to outright reject it and it allows them a way to offer their input. NASCAR's piece of the agreement is relatively small. You may get some important items out of step 2 (sharing the cost of a pension plan, health insurance...etc.).

That was a fun legal exercise. Is it possible? Yes. Will it make everything take longer? Also yes.

The sanctioning body being separate from the owners just adds an extra step.
 
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