Silly Season 2024

StandOnIt said:
This is real simple what I am saying. There isn't a union. I haven't said if I am for or against a union so don't put words in my mouth. Reality is there isn't one. I question why there isn't and one of the reasons I came up with is that drivers specifically haven't felt the need to have one. Nobody is stopping them from doing so. The laws have been relaxed recently so that it isn't illegal to do so.
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The piece about the drivers not feeling a need is crucial, and well said. I might piss somebody off with this, but I really don't care (as I am a member of a union).....Unions exist because of a lack of trust between the worker and management. If there is trust, and I would agree with you that there is between the drivers and the owners, there is no need. Let us also keep in mind that unions govern the behavior of the workers....what does equitable pay look like when one driver attracts more sponsorship than another? Be very careful what you ask for...
 
Revman said:
.what does equitable pay look like when one driver attracts more sponsorship than another? Be very careful what you ask for...
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Not generally an issue with sports unions. The CBA would generally establish a minimum salary without further specifications for how much a driver is paid or why. Sports teams have players that are paid different amounts so this isn't new in sports labor. Shohei Ohtani just signed a contract for $70 million, partially due to the sponsorship that he'll bring from Japan. At most, you'll see a salary cap (which I don't suggest for NASCAR) but sports CBAs don't usually specify who gets paid and what. In baseball (which is the gold standard for sports labor unions), the CBA ensures that contracts are guaranteed and players can't be fired without their deals being paid out. There's also a pension plan included (which I think vests at 10 years in the league). For NASCAR, I'd suggest a shorter period, just to compensate for shorter careers for low-end guys.

Revman said:
Unions exist because of a lack of trust between the worker and management.
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Unions exist to ensure that the worker can negotiate on equal footing with the employer. A union can have a good relationship with the employer. My dad was a union man for years and his union rep was good friends with the manager at his shop. A union is like a condom on a good night out. You may not need it but you'll be damn glad you have it if you do.

The only reason to not have a union is to preserve the power imbalance that favors the employer. The owners recognized this when they decided to collectively bargained with NASCAR.

Drivers have more leverage than any other group of athletes, a union would help them harness that and get meaningful changes (pension, health care...etc).
 
I posted this in The Podium thread but since the discussion seems to be staying here so I'll state it here:

- By his own admission, Jerry Nadeau struggled with suicide ideation and the negative impacts of his TBI. He said that he had trouble finding work and a way to support himself.

- Bobby Allison almost went broke because of medical bills (and his race team failing) and openly cited not having a pension as a reason for his financial issues.

- Sam Ard spent years in a nursing home for Alzheimer's and his family was going broke until Kyle Busch donated money to help cover his cost of care.

Allison is obviously one of the winningest Cup drivers in history and Ard is a multiple time Busch Series Champion. Both men should have had pensions (and Ard should have had health insurance).

The owners collectively realized the power they held when they created the RTA. The drivers need to also realize their power. The issue (in my opinion) is that the NASCAR boom created millionaires who saw money beyond what Bobby Allison ever saw so the top drivers didn't see a need to organize to protect the interest of the less successful guys. The generation that tried unionizing in the 1960s were beaten into submission by Bill France's union busting (and threats of literal gun violence). Unions also work when everyone involved cares about the collective's interest. The guy who can afford the $16 million house doesn't seem to care about the back marker who is trying to hold onto a ride or may have CTE later in life from being the weekly Rick Ware Racing caution.
 
The Nature Boy said:


Looks like Richard Petty is back as a team owner for his grandson.
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Nah, Lane More owns the team, Petty is just related so they try to get mileage out of that but from what I've seen over the years the kid just doesnt have the talent. This may be his best chance with an Alliance with Niece Motorsports but I'm not expecting much.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I posted this in The Podium thread but since the discussion seems to be staying here so I'll state it here:

- By his own admission, Jerry Nadeau struggled with suicide ideation and the negative impacts of his TBI. He said that he had trouble finding work and a way to support himself.

- Bobby Allison almost went broke because of medical bills (and his race team failing) and openly cited not having a pension as a reason for his financial issues.

- Sam Ard spent years in a nursing home for Alzheimer's and his family was going broke until Kyle Busch donated money to help cover his cost of care.

Allison is obviously one of the winningest Cup drivers in history and Ard is a multiple time Busch Series Champion. Both men should have had pensions (and Ard should have had health insurance).

The owners collectively realized the power they held when they created the RTA. The drivers need to also realize their power. The issue (in my opinion) is that the NASCAR boom created millionaires who saw money beyond what Bobby Allison ever saw so the top drivers didn't see a need to organize to protect the interest of the less successful guys. The generation that tried unionizing in the 1960s were beaten into submission by Bill France's union busting (and threats of literal gun violence). Unions also work when everyone involved cares about the collective's interest. The guy who can afford the $16 million house doesn't seem to care about the back marker who is trying to hold onto a ride or may have CTE later in life from being the weekly Rick Ware Racing caution.
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Its a crime what happened to Bobby, from the top of NASCAR to having to make personal appearances to pay his bills. I heard that Roger Penske helped him, he loves Bobby and hated seeing the position he was in. NASCAR needs to take that Penalty money they collect from team infractions and create a driver fund to help those who are injured. Thats what I would do if I were King.
 
The idea of unions is a great thing, the reality of unions is they are just as corrupt as the corporations they are supposed to be protecting the workers from.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
It's an agreement between drivers and owners. Why would they need to involve NASCAR at all?
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NASCAR bears some risk here, if the owners and drivers have a dispute then they would lose out on revenue because of a strike. I imagine most of the time they would rubber stamp a driver/owner agreement since it would rarely benefit them to get involved. But I imagine NASCAR would care if they saw a provision that made a strike more likely so it’s best that they’re in the loop.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I posted this in The Podium thread but since the discussion seems to be staying here so I'll state it here:

- By his own admission, Jerry Nadeau struggled with suicide ideation and the negative impacts of his TBI. He said that he had trouble finding work and a way to support himself.

- Bobby Allison almost went broke because of medical bills (and his race team failing) and openly cited not having a pension as a reason for his financial issues.

- Sam Ard spent years in a nursing home for Alzheimer's and his family was going broke until Kyle Busch donated money to help cover his cost of care.

Allison is obviously one of the winningest Cup drivers in history and Ard is a multiple time Busch Series Champion. Both men should have had pensions (and Ard should have had health insurance).

The owners collectively realized the power they held when they created the RTA. The drivers need to also realize their power. The issue (in my opinion) is that the NASCAR boom created millionaires who saw money beyond what Bobby Allison ever saw so the top drivers didn't see a need to organize to protect the interest of the less successful guys. The generation that tried unionizing in the 1960s were beaten into submission by Bill France's union busting (and threats of literal gun violence). Unions also work when everyone involved cares about the collective's interest. The guy who can afford the $16 million house doesn't seem to care about the back marker who is trying to hold onto a ride or may have CTE later in life from being the weekly Rick Ware Racing caution.
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But how much responsibility do the drivers themselves have for making sure that they have proper insurance and retirement funding in place? Could NASCAR and the wealthy team owners do more to make that coverage more accessible and affordable? Probably yes, but at the end of the day, you have to put your big boy pants on take the responsibility for yourself. I was going through some old files the other day and came across one of my ARCA insurance policy cards (K&K). It wasn't great, but at least it would have given me SOMETHING if I got mowed down or burnt up on pit road. Even at that, it was a genuine concern to me the entire time out was out there I was putting my wife in a real bind if I got hurt and couldn't work. Had I gone on another year, I was going to seriously look at buying more supplemental insurance.
 
Formerjackman said:
But how much responsibility do the drivers themselves have for making sure that they have proper insurance and retirement funding in place? Could NASCAR and the wealthy team owners do more to make that coverage more accessible and affordable? Probably yes, but at the end of the day, you have to put your big boy pants on take the responsibility for yourself.
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With what drivers make today, they can certainly afford health and life insurance, and to invest for retirement. What's happened to some drivers from earlier generations is tragic but drivers now make hundreds of times more a year than those guys made in a career.

When you're pulling down at least the high six figures for the bottom feeders, do you need or want a union to negotiate benefits? That's why you have a business manager. IF anyone needs a union, it's drivers in Xfinity and lower, but who cares if they walk out? Unlike Cup, there a plenty of almost-equally qualified people waiting in line, and casual fans wouldn't know the difference. Fox Sports and CW may not bat an eye.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
With what drivers make today, they can certainly afford health and life insurance, and to invest for retirement. What's happened to some drivers from earlier generations is tragic but drivers now make hundreds of times more a year than those guys made in a career.

When you're pulling down at least the high six figures for the bottom feeders, do you need or want a union to negotiate benefits? That's why you have a business manager. IF anyone needs a union, it's drivers in Xfinity and lower, but who cares if they walk out? Unlike Cup, there a plenty of almost-equally qualified people waiting in line, and casual fans wouldn't know the difference. Fox Sports and CW may not bat an eye.
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Unions are for workers unsatisfied with their working conditions. I could see it more for the shop guys, but again, they have very few working at these places that aren't there because the absolutely love it and the competing that goes along with it. They usually leave it if they don't love it, it's a dream job for most, same with drivers...excluding long in tooth Hamlin.
I mean really? Kyle Busch just sold his building for like 14 million and Harvick just bought the mansion that they filmed the Ricky Bobby house scenes in.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Eh, if things get tight, they can always follow Harry Gant's example and sign autographs on a PPV basis.
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Let's face it. Using some of these guys that are financial disasters as a reason for a Union would have to be taken in a much deeper dive than just on the surface. A very large portion of NFL players are broke in 6 years or less...Broadway Joe is selling cut throat term insurance on TV. It can happen to anybody, but most of the time it is just ignorance and stupidity. The life styles many of these lead, a pension wouldn't pay the light bill.
 
Unions do more than negotiate paychecks.

And I'd argue that the sport would need more than a "driver's union," but one for crew members and people who work in the shops as well.

When it comes to NASCAR and the idea of a union, you have to realize labor laws in the State of North Carolina are a joke. They're VERY pro-business. The labor laws that do exist have so many loopholes in them that you could drive a fleet of trucks through them.
 
Formerjackman said:
But how much responsibility do the drivers themselves have for making sure that they have proper insurance and retirement funding in place? Could NASCAR and the wealthy team owners do more to make that coverage more accessible and affordable? Probably yes, but at the end of the day, you have to put your big boy pants on take the responsibility for yourself. I was going through some old files the other day and came across one of my ARCA insurance policy cards (K&K). It wasn't great, but at least it would have given me SOMETHING if I got mowed down or burnt up on pit road. Even at that, it was a genuine concern to me the entire time out was out there I was putting my wife in a real bind if I got hurt and couldn't work. Had I gone on another year, I was going to seriously look at buying more supplemental insurance.
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K&K was the only insurance that would pay you, be real. No other Insurance would touch a driver ( crew) back then and since when were you in danger of getting burned up in ARCA? You would have a much better chance getting burned in your Kitchen.
 
Driver salaries have decreased massively. Yeah if you were a backmarker 15 years ago, you had a real good living. Now the bottom-ish ten Cup guys and the bottom half of the Xfinity field live a life that's pretty on-par with upper middle class Americans.
 
Speedbowl14 said:
Driver salaries have decreased massively. Yeah if you were a backmarker 15 years ago, you had a real good living. Now the bottom-ish ten Cup guys and the bottom half of the Xfinity field live a life that's pretty on-par with upper middle class Americans.
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Do you have pay stubs or beads or wampum?
 
StandOnIt said:
Do you have pay stubs or beads or wampum?
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Awhile ago someone pointed out to me that if you look at the per race earnings for Tim Richmond with Hendrick and Alex Bowman with Hendrick, they are paid identically in unadjusted terms.
 
I brought wampum. one of Elliott's planes.

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virtualbalboa said:
Awhile ago someone pointed out to me that if you look at the per race earnings for Tim Richmond with Hendrick and Alex Bowman with Hendrick, they are paid identically in unadjusted terms.
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Paid by whom?

Where is this information available?
 
aunty dive said:
Paid by whom?

Where is this information available?
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Christ, now I need to look this up. I'm sure it'll wind up being considered hearsay since there's no official contract numbers out there, but I was told 50K per race for both guy's contracts three decades apart.
 
StandOnIt said:
I brought wampum. one of Elliott's planes.

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You're cherry picking data. If Chase never became a NASCAR driver himself... pretty likely he could still have a private jet given his father is one of the greatest drivers of all time and finished his career at the height of NASCAR's driver salaries. And then the whole champion, most popular driver, major sponsor, blahblahblah didn't hurt Chase's wealth.

No, there's no numerical data to support my "claim". That's specifically why I said "life/class" and not salary. With all the social media drivers do, pretty easy to see most of the drivers these days are not living in $5 million+ mansions that the whole Cup field could afford in the 2000s and early 2010s. Most current drivers seem to have levels of wealth that non-gifted, everyday people could reasonably attain.
 
Speedbowl14 said:
You're cherry picking data. If Chase never became a NASCAR driver himself... pretty likely he could still have a private jet given his father is one of the greatest drivers of all time and finished his career at the height of NASCAR's driver salaries. And then the whole champion, most popular driver, major sponsor, blahblahblah didn't hurt Chase's wealth.

No, there's no numerical data to support my "claim". That's specifically why I said "life/class" and not salary. With all the social media drivers do, pretty easy to see most of the drivers these days are not living in $5 million+ mansions that the whole Cup field could afford in the 2000s and early 2010s. Most current drivers seem to have levels of wealth that non-gifted, everyday people could reasonably attain.
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without any proof you can say anything ya want. I don't happen to believe it. Because I pretty much know it to be different. Why don't you google some of the cup drivers names like Kevin Harvick house etc, and see for yourself.
www.charlottemagazine.com

Look Inside Denny Hamlin’s Lake Norman Mansion - Charlotte Magazine

The NASCAR champion's home is equal parts high tech and high style
www.charlottemagazine.com www.charlottemagazine.com
Here are two of Brad's
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If you're looking for "salaries have decreased for NASCAR drivers" as something approximating proof, you could go back to the Kenny Wallace youtube video earlier this year (Kenny's a legitimate primary source) about driver pay in the US or a litany of interviews involving the same people being named as evidence nothing changed. Keselowski and Hamlin are involved in team ownership because driver pay has significantly slid since the glory days by their own admission.
 
virtualbalboa said:
If you're looking for "salaries have decreased for NASCAR drivers" as something approximating proof, you could go back to the Kenny Wallace youtube video earlier this year (Kenny's a legitimate primary source) about driver pay in the US or a litany of interviews involving the same people being named as evidence nothing changed. Keselowski and Hamlin are involved in team ownership because driver pay has significantly slid since the glory days by their own admission.
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I don't think anyone will disagree that driver salaries are substantially less than they were even five years ago. That's still a long way above what they were before the '90s.
 
Spotter22 said:
K&K was the only insurance that would pay you, be real. No other Insurance would touch a driver ( crew) back then and since when were you in danger of getting burned up in ARCA? You would have a much better chance getting burned in your Kitchen.
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I was interested in some kind of supplemental insurance from K&K. My wife worked there for awhile, so I knew some people that could have steered me through the process, IF I could have afforded it. At the time, there was also another locally based company that offered oddball policies similar to what K&K does. As for fire, fuel fires in the pits were not all THAT out of the question, especially considering the skill level of some of the fuelers. I was fortunate to mostly work with a couple of VERY good ones. On the other hand, I occasionally worked with guys I had never even SEEN before. Also consider that until 2003, nobody but the fueler was required wear to a firesuit, gloves or a helmet, and many did not. More than once I hung left rear tires with fuel splashing on me, or standing in a fuel puddle.
 
Just going out on a limb here to say this thread has gone just a bit off track. I wish I could find it within myself to care how much drivers made or what insurance different posters carry but anyways here’s some news on 2024 sponsors and a few other nuggets
racer.com

Logano, Blaney to carry Hunt Brothers Pizza backing during 2024

Hunt Brothers Pizza has joined Team Penske in a multiyear deal that will see the brand on the Nos. 12 and 22 Ford Mustangs beginning next season. Joey Logano will drive the Hunt Brothers Pizza car …
racer.com racer.com
racer.com

Spire Motorsports finalizes crew chief lineup for 2024

Stephen Doran and Luke Lambert have joined Spire Motorsports to fill out the organization’s crew chief lineup for the 2024 NASCAR Cup Series season. Doran will work with rookie Zane Smith and the N…
racer.com racer.com
frontstretch.com

What's Left of the 2024 NASCAR Silly Season?

Plenty of dominoes have fallen, but there are still some announcements left to come.
frontstretch.com frontstretch.com
 
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