Silly Season For 2017

Simple Fan said:
I really don't see what your on about here. Your fine with Kyle Busch dominating the series part time but have a problem with Biffle running in it full time? Biffle in either series will help the deveoplment of the younger drivers. They are not particularly developmental series though, yeah they have a few development drivers but also a fair mix of veterens to push those young drivers. Biffle would being experience and star power to either series which would be good for those series.
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I have a problem with those who endorse Biffle in the lower series because he can't get a Cup ride while bitching about Kyle running the lower series even though he can. You cannot have it both ways. I have never had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series. That has been a bitch for those who bitch.
 
DUN24 said:
You're comparing apples and oranges, man. The problem with Edwards, Busch in the Xfinity Series is that they had full time seats in the cup series. The goal was to sweep weekends and championships. If it's your only opportunity as is the case for the Biff, Sadler, and Morgan Shepard, it's completely different.
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Maybe my point is that if you have had your time, and those are your only options, perhaps bow out gracefully especially if Biff is as rich as everybody says he is.
 
Revman said:
I have a problem with those who endorse Biffle in the lower series because he can't get a Cup ride while bitching about Kyle running the lower series even though he can. You cannot have it both ways. I have never had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series. That has been a bitch for those who bitch.
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Can you not see how contradictory this is?
 
Revman said:
I have never had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series.
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Revman said:
Maybe my point is that if you have had your time, and those are your only options, perhaps bow out gracefully especially if Biff is as rich as everybody says he is.
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Are there multiple people posting from your account?
 
Revman said:
I have a problem with those who endorse Biffle in the lower series because he can't get a Cup ride while bitching about Kyle running the lower series even though he can. You cannot have it both ways. I have never had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series. That has been a bitch for those who bitch.
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If Kyle wants to give up his seat in Cup and compete for championships in the Xfinity series, nobody would have a problem with him running in the lower levels.
 
Revman said:
I have never had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series.
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I'm trying to keep track of your position. Not your crusade against your definition of what other people's views are, but your position.

1. You never have had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series.

2. You do have a problem with an ex-Cup driver racing in the lower series, because Kyle Busch is no longer allowed to run both series full-time.

3. You're a fan of drivers who just love to compete and race.

4. Drivers who are sufficiently wealthy should quit, and it's unseemly (or at least the opposite of graceful) to keep racing if your options dwindle.
 
gnomesayin said:
I'm trying to keep track of your position. Not your crusade against your definition of what other people's views are, but your position.

1. You never have had a problem with the Cup guys in the lower series.

2. You do have a problem with an ex-Cup driver racing in the lower series, because Kyle Busch is no longer allowed to run both series full-time.

3. You're a fan of drivers who just love to compete and race.

4. Drivers who are sufficiently wealthy should quit, and it's unseemly (or at least the opposite of graceful) to keep racing if your options dwindle.
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1. No problem with Cup guys in lower series.

2. Problem with a bitch about Kyle out and Biff in.

3. Love a driver who loves to race and compete.

4. If one doesn't like Cuppers in, then he/she should not like Biff in simply because he cannot find a ride. If he cannot find a ride, he should retire IMO.
 
Revman said:
1. No problem with Cup guys in lower series.

2. Problem with a bitch about Kyle out and Biff in.

3. Love a driver who loves to race and compete.

4. If one doesn't like Cuppers in, then he/she should not like Biff in simply because he cannot find a ride. If he cannot find a ride, he should retire IMO.
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So you still don't understand the difference between one of the top 2 or 3 drivers in NASCAR driving the best **** in the field on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sunday's; and Greg fuggin Biffle spending the twilight of his career in the Xfinity Series. Crazy.
 
Sorry, but your logic is twisted. The difference has been explained ad nauseam. But this is why I'm attempting to keep you confined to what your position is, because it's always you defining your argument based on what you say is the hypocrisy of others. You believe it is an injustice that rules were made to limit Kyle Busch's participation in the Xfinity series. You are now finding any way imaginable to argue that it would be wrong for Greg Biffle to participate in the Xfinity series. It's like you think your friend was wrongfully arrested, so now you're walking around the streets pointing the police toward other innocent people, all in the name of "Well, if my guy got screwed, then everyone else should too."

It really seems like underneath it all, you're just not very fond of Greg Biffle. That's fine, but it's not a principle.
 
DUN24 said:
So you still don't understand the difference between one of the top 2 or 3 drivers in NASCAR driving the best sh!t in the field on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sunday's; and Greg fuggin Biffle spending the twilight of his career in the Xfinity Series. Crazy.
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Nope.
 
gnomesayin said:
Sorry, but your logic is twisted. The difference has been explained ad nauseam. But this is why I'm attempting to keep you confined to what your position is, because it's always you defining your argument based on what you say is the hypocrisy of others. You believe it is an injustice that rules were made to limit Kyle Busch's participation in the Xfinity series. You are now finding any way imaginable to argue that it would be wrong for Greg Biffle to participate in the Xfinity series. It's like you think your friend was wrongfully arrested, so now you're walking around the streets pointing the police toward other innocent people, all in the name of "Well, if my guy got screwed, then everyone else should too."

It really seems like underneath it all, you're just not very fond of Greg Biffle. That's fine, but it's not a principle.
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Nope, I like Biff. Very good Cup driver....and he should drive whatever he wants when he wants. Just like Kyle.
 
An awful lot of angst about something that's not likely to happen.

Biffle said he'd keep racing if he could go somewhere and win. Looking around at the winning cars and teams in all 3 series, I don't see an available seat. Any suggestions?
 
aunty dive said:
An awful lot of angst about something that's not likely to happen.

Biffle said he'd keep racing if he could go somewhere and win. Looking around at the winning cars and teams in all 3 series, I don't see an available seat. Any suggestions?
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He claims he has multiple offers and is working on it. We'll see, it will be interesting. It is far more likely that something winnable can come together at the Xfinity level. You make a good point about that being an enormous drop for him financially. If he takes a Cup ride, he's probably either deluding himself about winning or that's not actually the top priority.
 
gnomesayin said:
He claims he has multiple offers and is working on it. We'll see, it will be interesting. It is far more likely that something winnable can come together at the Xfinity level. You make a good point about that being an enormous drop for him financially. If he takes a Cup ride, he's probably either deluding himself about winning or that's not actually the top priority.
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All my other bull**** aside......I had the privilege of a Hot Pass at Phoenix. Strolled through all three series garages. I cannot imagine stepping down after being at the pinnacle unless one was financially strapped....but then again, I have never raced anything. Perhaps the draw to the ****pit transcends the financial reward. Much pride to be swallowed.
 
Revman said:
All my other bull**** aside......I had the privilege of a Hot Pass at Phoenix. Strolled through all three series garages. I cannot imagine stepping down after being at the pinnacle unless one was financially strapped....but then again, I have never raced anything. Perhaps the draw to the ****pit transcends the financial reward. Much pride to be swallowed.
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Maybe its the schedule is appealing its far less demanding to be in the lower levels especially the trucks. I certainly can imagine traveling like that for years would be exhausting. I can't speak for Greg but I certainly can understand what would be appealing about going out to win every week 20 some times a year rather then running 25th 38 times a year. Money/pride etc. Aside. Personally I think the majority would have no lesser thoughts of him in the lower series at this point.
 
Fordracing7 said:
Maybe its the schedule is appealing its far less demanding to be in the lower levels especially the trucks. I certainly can imagine traveling like that for years would be exhausting. I can't speak for Greg but I certainly can understand what would be appealing about going out to win every week 20 some times a year rather then running 25th 38 times a year. Money/pride etc. Aside. Personally I think the majority would have no lesser thoughts of him in the lower series at this point.
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Fewer races, and most of those are two-day weekends, not three. Some of the tracks are ones he may not have run on before, including more road courses if that's his thing. Fewer testing sessions, fewer sponsor obligations. If you're not in it for the money, it looks like a winner to me.
 
Revman said:
Take a good look at the Cup coach lot. Then, look at the Truck "accommodations." Really? Biff wants to do that for three years? Really?

I really don't know what people want the Xfinity and Truck series to be. Biff full time in either series is worse IMO than Kyle tearing it up part time in either. Kyle is relevant. Biff in that context....not so much.
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I liked it when Trucks was the retirement series, Busch was for up and comers and Cup was for the best. The smart thing for Nascar to do would be to merge X & Trucks and use the same car as they do in cup in order to help prepare those wishing to ascend to cup.
 
I can't add anything to what has already been said about Biffle in X but I will throw my 2 cents in. It is hard to know just how much Biffle's skills have eroded given the crap he has been given to drive the past few years but at his age I think it is safe to say he is not the driver he was 10 years ago. The only cup rides he is likely to get are as a fill in driver when another driver is hurt or as a teammate to Kerry's boy and those are not appealing. If he wants to retire from cup and join a lower series I think that is 100% cool and no parallel can be drawn between him and Shrub in that scenario.

I think where @Revman has gone astray is that he is looking at Shrub and Biff in terms of ability and for arguments sake lets say they are equal drivers. However ability has nothing to do with it as it is a case of deciding which series you are going to call your own and if Shrub wants to run in a lesser series I am good with that providing that is the only series he runs. If he changes his mind the next year and want to run cup he can do that but just not race in the lower series. It really is just that simple.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I can't add anything to what has already been said about Biffle in X but I will throw my 2 cents in. It is hard to know just how much Biffle's skills have eroded given the crap he has been given to drive the past few years but at his age I think it is safe to say he is not the driver he was 10 years ago. The only cup rides he is likely to get are as a fill in driver when another driver is hurt or as a teammate to Kerry's boy and those are not appealing. If he wants to retire from cup and join a lower series I think that is 100% cool and no parallel can be drawn between him and Shrub in that scenario.

I think where @Revman has gone astray is that he is looking at Shrub and Biff in terms of ability and for arguments sake lets say they are equal drivers. However ability has nothing to do with it as it is a case of deciding which series you are going to call your own and if Shrub wants to run in a lesser series I am good with that providing that is the only series he runs. If he changes his mind the next year and want to run cup he can do that but just not race in the lower series. It really is just that simple.
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Fair assessment. I think at the core of this discussion is the purpose of the lower series. I can understand the bitch about Kyle coming down and winning everything. My assumption was that the bitch stemmed from he idea that he was screwing the show for the up and comers. In this regard, Biffle would be doing the same thing regardless of his career status. He would still be taking a spot in a seat or in the running order from a minor league talent. So, IMO if the Xfinity and Trucks exists for younger talent, and Cup guys are taking those seats, then I get the bitch BUT the bitch must be for both Kyle and Biff. If the Xfinity and Trucks exists as open series, then really, who the hell cares where and/or if a guy races on Sunday? That makes no freaking sense to me, and I think in an argument connected to personal feelings about our 2015 Champion. It's good to know that I am not the only one clouded by bias and passion.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I liked it when Trucks was the retirement series, Busch was for up and comers and Cup was for the best. The smart thing for Nascar to do would be to merge X & Trucks and use the same car as they do in cup in order to help prepare those wishing to ascend to cup.
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That's fine, but NASCAR needs to promote the series as such. It is this ambiguity that creates the argument.
 
Revman said:
The whole sport has changed.
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and it is about to change again, for now they will limit the number of races a driver running for cup points can race. Soon that number will shrink. There is nothing mentioned however about drivers who in the past did run for cup points but no longer do so. Those guys and the ones honing their skills to get a cup ride will make up the field in the near future.
IMO that is the way it should be. No driver in the top 25 in points should be allowed in X series.
I only added that rule so Danica could stick around. :rolleyes:
 
Revman said:
Fair assessment. I think at the core of this discussion is the purpose of the lower series. I can understand the bitch about Kyle coming down and winning everything. My assumption was that the bitch stemmed from he idea that he was screwing the show for the up and comers. In this regard, Biffle would be doing the same thing regardless of his career status. He would still be taking a spot in a seat or in the running order from a minor league talent. So, IMO if the Xfinity and Trucks exists for younger talent, and Cup guys are taking those seats, then I get the bitch BUT the bitch must be for both Kyle and Biff. If the Xfinity and Trucks exists as open series, then really, who the hell cares where and/or if a guy races on Sunday? That makes no freaking sense to me, and I think in an argument connected to personal feelings about our 2015 Champion. It's good to know that I am not the only one clouded by bias and passion.
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It's my firm unmovable belief that if it were Jimmie Johnson instead of kybu then you would be preaching from the opposite pulpit.
 
Revman said:
Fair assessment. I think at the core of this discussion is the purpose of the lower series. I can understand the bitch about Kyle coming down and winning everything. My assumption was that the bitch stemmed from he idea that he was screwing the show for the up and comers. In this regard, Biffle would be doing the same thing regardless of his career status. He would still be taking a spot in a seat or in the running order from a minor league talent. So, IMO if the Xfinity and Trucks exists for younger talent, and Cup guys are taking those seats, then I get the bitch BUT the bitch must be for both Kyle and Biff. If the Xfinity and Trucks exists as open series, then really, who the hell cares where and/or if a guy races on Sunday? That makes no freaking sense to me, and I think in an argument connected to personal feelings about our 2015 Champion. It's good to know that I am not the only one clouded by bias and passion.
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Nascar never defined the purpose for each of its series which is not surprising seeing they are the kings, queens and court jesters of unintended consequences. That is how the BGN series went from a mainly developmental league to the joke it is today with a couple of good teams with rotating drivers that roast the other competitors that are mainly as poor as church mice. The trucks were cool when they represented the retirement series as you would see occasional appearances from guys like Harry Gant and DW and regulars like Skinner, Musgrave and Hamilton. Now the series is so screwed up they have to have a caution clock so the drivers can practice making it stops or so it was said. Rob Kauffman wanted to get paid for his failures at MWR so he formed the RTA and Nascar capitulated to it's demands by handing charters out like candy to undeserving teams. Kauffman got his 10 million and now is goodness knows where and now terrible teams with no chance of improvement are ensconced in the series.

Regarding drivers in different series it should be as simple as declaring which series you will run in and that is that. If a good driver with good equipment wants to win 10-12 times a year and is OK getting paid a lot less that in cup then he has every right to run in X.
 
Revman said:
That's fine, but NASCAR needs to promote the series as such. It is this ambiguity that creates the argument.
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Nascar needs competent leadership that doesn't crap the bed when a car is 1/1000th out of tolerance yet throws the yellow for a hot dog wrapper. They need smarter people that understand that a car driving around a super speedway with a jack lodged underneath it represents a greater hazard then a wheel rolling down pit road at Watkins Glen. The swamp needs to be drained at Nascar as the current regime is not getting the job done on or off the track.
 
Revman said:
Fair assessment. I think at the core of this discussion is the purpose of the lower series. I can understand the bitch about Kyle coming down and winning everything. My assumption was that the bitch stemmed from he idea that he was screwing the show for the up and comers. In this regard, Biffle would be doing the same thing regardless of his career status. He would still be taking a spot in a seat or in the running order from a minor league talent. So, IMO if the Xfinity and Trucks exists for younger talent, and Cup guys are taking those seats, then I get the bitch BUT the bitch must be for both Kyle and Biff. If the Xfinity and Trucks exists as open series, then really, who the hell cares where and/or if a guy races on Sunday? That makes no freaking sense to me, and I think in an argument connected to personal feelings about our 2015 Champion. It's good to know that I am not the only one clouded by bias and passion.
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If there are no experienced drivers in the lower series, those up-and-comers aren't going to get any better. No matter what you're competing in, the best way to get better is by doing it against others who are can show you the ropes. That may not be why they're out there, but they're going to show you stuff whether they plan to or not.
 
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Team Penske said:
and it is about to change again, for now they will limit the number of races a driver running for cup points can race. Soon that number will shrink. There is nothing mentioned however about drivers who in the past did run for cup points but no longer do so. Those guys and the ones honing their skills to get a cup ride will make up the field in the near future.
IMO that is the way it should be. No driver in the top 25 in points should be allowed in X series.
I only added that rule so Danica could stick around. :rolleyes:
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Common sense in Nascar is not common. Just look at some of the on track calls as a car can barely graze the wall and maintain speed and it causes an immediate caution where another car can smack the wall and have parts flying around and they have to think about whether a caution is called or not. If Monster, Nascar or the networks are hoping to conquest fans from the world of sports they are going to have to become consistent and accurate in calling a race and the events surrounding it as very few fans of sports will put up with the nonsense.
 
All this 'taking a seat away from a younger driver' is pie in the sky . This is a sponsor driven sport . The sponsor wants who the sponsor wants . The owner and the sponsor sit down and decide how much they have to pay to get that guy . The sponsor gets the guy who will be a good corporate shill for his product . Most drivers would love to have the extra free weekends to spend with their families , (that driving in a lower series give them) . Picture a guy in his forties that has never been to any of the big events in his kids' lives . He can survive with less money , in exchange for more time at home .
 
Charlie Spencer said:
If there are no experienced drivers in the lower series, those up-and-comers aren't going to get any better. No matter what you're competing in, the best way to get better is by doing it against others who are can show you the ropes. That may not be why they're out there, but they're going to show you stuff whether they want to or not.
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Why doesn't nascar use year old cup cars in the X series as doesn't it make sense to practice your craft in the same equipment you hope to matriculate to? They could could still pretend the cars were Mustangs and Camaros and even swap out exhaust decals if the wished.
 
ted@economy said:
All this 'taking a seat away from a younger driver' is pie in the sky . This is a sponsor driven sport . The sponsor wants who the sponsor wants . The owner and the sponsor sit down and decide how much they have to pay to get that guy . The sponsor gets the guy who will be a good corporate shill for his product . Most drivers would love to have the extra free weekends to spend with their families , (that driving in a lower series give them) . Picture a guy in his forties that has never been to any of the big events in his kids' lives . He can survive with less money , in exchange for more time at home .
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What you say may be true but the teams, sponsors and anyone else is taking a short term view. Back in the 80's Lee Iacocca had K-Cars he needed to sell so he put rebates on them and the lemmings flocked to them in the same way as the lemmings did when Generous Motors put 2.9% financing on its cars in 1986. Those 2 events essentially ushered in the era where the new car department is a loss leader for dealerships and if any money is to be made it is on the back end of the deal or through ridiculous doc fees. The big 3 cut of their noses to spite their faces and now most every vehicle has to have some sort of incentive on it in order to sell it. The manufacturers artificially stimulate the market in order to make sales on vehicles that are not moving and many times just pull in customers that were going to by next year so what has been really accomplished?

The moral of the story is that there are no shortcuts to success and once you start dicking around with gimmicks and gadgets you have screwed yourself.

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While we're at it, how come nobody screams about crew chiefs with Cup experience taking jobs away from car chiefs who want to move up?

If the lower tiers are for development, they're not just for developing drivers. An inexperience crew chief is going to progress faster when teamed with an experienced driver than he is having to develop both his own skills and coddle a rookie shoe. A Biffle is going to be a better match for that new crew chief than an ROTY candidate.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
While we're at it, how come nobody screams about crew chiefs with Cup experience taking jobs away from car chiefs who want to move up?

If the lower tiers are for development, they're not just for developing drivers. An inexperience crew chief is going to progress faster when teamed with an experienced driver than he is having to develop both his own skills and coddle a rookie shoe. A Biffle is going to be a better match for that new crew chief than an ROTY candidate.
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Very true . We may be the only ones who know that the only similarity to a 'developmental series ' is the lower price that the sponsors want to pay . They still want an experienced driver , crew chief , pit crew , and equipment , but they just don't want to pay extra for it .
 
Revman said:
All my other bull**** aside......I had the privilege of a Hot Pass at Phoenix. Strolled through all three series garages. I cannot imagine stepping down after being at the pinnacle unless one was financially strapped....but then again, I have never raced anything. Perhaps the draw to the ****pit transcends the financial reward. Much pride to be swallowed.
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I think the key words in your post was ''stepping down''..... Biffle didn't get fired, he stepped down on his own...... because of that, I don't see how he will have a lot of pride to swallow. No matter if he goes to a lower series or just steps out entirely, it was his decision and evidently he wasn't happy with the position he was in. I applaud him for going with his gut feeling.
 
Updates 12/15

23 ???- BK Racing - has charter
30 ??? Josh Wise/Gray Gaulding - The Motorsports Group (TMG) - No charter
32 Matt DiBenedetto - Go Fas Racing - has charter
33 ??? Casey Mears - Circle Sport Racing - Must use or sell charter, cannot lease it
34 ???- Front Row Motorsports - has charter
37 Chris Beuscher - JTGD - has charter
44 ??????? - RPM - has charter
83 ???- BK Racing - has charter
55/98 ???- Premium Motorsports - gets charter back from HSM 46
 
Fun shenanigans with charters.

Charters change hands; Petty down to one team? Interviewed on SiriusXM NASCAR radio Thursday afternoon, Go Fas owner Archie St. Hilare said the #32 team has leased the charter from Richard Petty Motorsports' #44 team for the 2017 season. Furthermore, Go Fas has leased the #32 team charter for next season to Wood Brothers Racing's #21 team.
The moves will guarantee #21-Ryan Blaney and Wood Brothers make every race next season.
Per ESPN.com's Bob Pockrass, "By leasing #32 charter to Wood Brothers, Go FAS likely makes sure charter isn't bottom 3 for 3 consecutive yrs (can be revoked if so)".
In addition, St. Hilare says Go Fas has obtained 6 cars from Richard Petty Motorsports for next year.
While nothing has been officially announced, the moves appear to show that Richard Petty Motorsports will contract back to a single car team next season with #43-Aric Almirola.(12-15-2016)
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http://www.jayski.com/cupnews.htm
 
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